[PON] Conflict in Europe - Massive Multiplayer - PLAYERS NEEDED

[Lindi]

The Egypt is also free if new player not have a country for him

[Crixdaz]

Thanks for the invitation, only a question ¿how can i know what are the free nations?. Because I guess the Details.txt file with the players it's not updated.

[Kensai]

Unfortunately it is not up-to-date. But you know, after many requests to the players I will start doing it myself... just load those you prefer and ask here. If you see a password it's probably taken btw.

[Crixdaz]

I 've been looking the countries that doesn't have .ord files and I found this:
-Denmark, I can't load the file because it's doesn't appear in load game.
-Chile, good industry, army and navy, but lack of coal.
-Egypt, completely invaded by Germany, it's going to be annexed?
-Colombia, a very rich country but can't build a single ship, it's that normal?

If they are all my options I'll prefer Colombia if it's possible to build a navy.
Thanks

[Jonathan Pollard]

I know it's possible to buy ships from other countries, I have recently done so as China. But I doubt you will ever get any naval leaders. If your navy is small, this should not be a major problem.

[Citizen X]

I 've been looking the countries that doesn't have .ord files and I found this:
-Denmark, I can't load the file because it's doesn't appear in load game.
-Chile, good industry, army and navy, but lack of coal.
-Egypt, completely invaded by Germany, it's going to be annexed?
-Colombia, a very rich country but can't build a single ship, it's that normal?

If they are all my options I'll prefer Colombia if it's possible to build a navy.
Thanks

Currently I run Colombia (so here the details.txt is right). I took it over alongside OE when I entered the game a few turns ago because I am not sure if the OE can be brought back to live. I stated to decide by the game date Late April 1878 if need be.
Egypt is totally invaded because the former owner couldnt agree on a peace treaty with Germany. You might come to terms better with bjfagan who runs it.
Can't say anything about Denmark or Chile, really, as I am new myself.
I suggest you simply jump into any country to get the feel and then decide a few turns later on a final country.

[Kensai]

The "hidden" nations will probably appear if you press the button at the load screen to show AI-nations. Try this!
If you take a really small (or pacific) country you might want to try two. Denmark AND Colombia (or something else).

Citizen X, of course the Ottoman Empire can be brought back to life, but this era is historically extremely difficult as it marks the twilight of the Sultanate. I feel that albeit the coming issues (Balkans insurrections, Middle East crises, etc) the Ottoman Empire has a very interesting play to make trying to hold what it can until Kemal comes in the final years of the game and kicks the beep out of 4-5 nations in 3-4 different theaters of operations. Can you be that man? Can you do better than that? It's a challenge, I know, especially for late comers, but I suspect tons of satisfaction in case you succeed.

[lukasberger]

I 've been looking the countries that doesn't have .ord files and I found this:
-Denmark, I can't load the file because it's doesn't appear in load game.
-Chile, good industry, army and navy, but lack of coal.
-Egypt, completely invaded by Germany, it's going to be annexed?
-Colombia, a very rich country but can't build a single ship, it's that normal?

If they are all my options I'll prefer Colombia if it's possible to build a navy.
Thanks

I've been playing Chile as a second nation and yeah the lack of coal is a real issue. And you can't build coal mines without coal So I haven't been filing turns real regularly. Other than the coal issue Chile is a really nice nation to play if you want them.

If you take Chile and get to the point where you have enough PC to build a coal mine in a nation with whom you have a commercial agreement, such as my Austria, then I'll make a scripted deal with you where I'll sell you some coal. Enough to clear the -numbers and to build the mine.

[Kensai]

I've been playing Chile as a second nation and yeah the lack of coal is a real issue. And you can't build coal mines without coal So I haven't been filing turns real regularly. Other than the coal issue Chile is a really nice nation to play if you want them.

Have you tried to shut down all coal-spending production for some months while trying to buy only coal from a nation you have really good relations with (all while having merchant taxes low, many trade ships in the MTB, and obviously pay the 25% premium)? Whenever I do this, even with puny Greece, I get loads of coal.

If you take Chile and get to the point where you have enough PC to build a coal mine in a nation with whom you have a commercial agreement, such as my Austria, then I'll make a scripted deal with you where I'll sell you some coal. Enough to clear the -numbers and to build the mine.

Script a deal for a trade offer? That would be uncool and almost cheating as you will be circumventing the design mechanisms, given that the game already has a "free trade" system which is very accurate for the era and factors in state relations, ruler attributes, trade ships score, premium paid, as well as other countries vying for limited resources.

What you can only do is warn Chile (privately) that you are about to sell a bootload of coal and by next turn that it becomes available hope that Chile buys almost all of it with a premium and other nations have not noticed in time.
(dropping prices might indicate that some nation is flushing the market with said resource!)

[lukasberger]

Script a deal for a trade offer? That would be uncool and almost cheating as you will be circumventing the design mechanisms, given that the game already has a "free trade" system which is very accurate for the era and factors in state relations, ruler attributes, trade ships score, premium paid, as well as other countries vying for limited resources.

It's not accurate if you can't get any at all. I've offered to pay the 25% premium repeatedly, and tired to buy the entire market worth. The coal level never rises.

[Jonathan Pollard]

It's not accurate if you can't get any at all. I've offered to pay the 25% premium repeatedly, and tired to buy the entire market worth. The coal level never rises.

Maybe you should let Kensai play your country for a few turns, maybe he can do something to get your coal level to rise.

[Crixdaz]

After a good search, I believe that the abandoned nations are Denmark and Chile, right? I could try both and not disturbing anyone. What do you think?

[Citizen X]

...

Citizen X, of course the Ottoman Empire can be brought back to life, but this era is historically extremely difficult as it marks the twilight of the Sultanate. I feel that albeit the coming issues (Balkans insurrections, Middle East crises, etc) the Ottoman Empire has a very interesting play to make trying to hold what it can until Kemal comes in the final years of the game and kicks the beep out of 4-5 nations in 3-4 different theaters of operations. Can you be that man? Can you do better than that? It's a challenge, I know, especially for late comers, but I suspect tons of satisfaction in case you succeed.

I am in for the challenge. However, I know how it should look like by 1877 (in the game) and besides some rail there is less than it started with in 1850 in most accords. So I am not sure how much time OE will stay behind. Having no diplomats for (almost) the rest of the game is not helping either.
But we will see.

[Kensai]

It's not accurate if you can't get any at all. I've offered to pay the 25% premium repeatedly, and tired to buy the entire market worth. The coal level never rises.

Shut down your industry for some turns. Everything that consumes coal. Put orders with the premium from countries that show up in the B screen with a good offering ratio in respect to demand. Select those countries that you have the best relations and possibly a commercial agreement. Send most of your trade ships to that MTB. Lower mercantile taxes. Cross fingers. Rinse, repeat.

It has worked for Greece more than once, but I was patient. I have been seeing my coal raise by 2-3 and my state funds and private capital by 20-30. It was painstaking, but with a small country you need to be patient, the slow development is part of the fun, you always need to wait for it. Chances are that once you stop wasting coal in operations, your inherent (craftsmen) production will be high enough to cover some of the needs, this happens for some resources in small nations. I mean, look at Sweden and Brazil which are slowly but inexorably grown (bar for the colonies) as worthy as at least Portugal or Japan.

If everything else fails and you are still in impasse, well, then we might want to script it in through a loan of money and more trade ships to raise the possibility of a buying transaction. One curiosity, you have a trade agreement with Japan and fantastic relations with that nation. Japan has many potential slots for you to open up a mine there. The Japanese player (moi!) can indicate you a potential mining pit!

After a good search, I believe that the abandoned nations are Denmark and Chile, right? I could try both and not disturbing anyone. What do you think?

Sure, knock yourself out! After the Balkan crisis is over you can even have Greece if you want.

I am in for the challenge. However, I know how it should look like by 1877 (in the game) and besides some rail there is less than it started with in 1850 in most accords. So I am not sure how much time OE will stay behind. Having no diplomats for (almost) the rest of the game is not helping either.
But we will see.

When I got Japan in 1855 I thought the previous player had lost some opportunities as well, but this was not the case after a while. I was very lucky to steer out of trouble through careful diplomacy and almost strict neutrality (to the point of boredom for almost a real year!), even if many Japanese scripted events were giving CBs to Europeans that would have been able to colonize Japan if they wanted (by that time). I was literally a chomp away. It pays out to be patient in this game, as well as being Machiavellian and knowing when to push and when to back off.

[Crixdaz]

Ok, if there's no problem I take the control of Denmark and Chile in today's turn

[Jonathan Pollard]

Because I have reason to believe that China is doomed to use smoothbore cannons and muskets until the game ends in 1920, I'm officially quitting and opening China to anyone who wants it. I already have the tech for Dreyse Needle Guns and even Gatling Guns, but the only firearms-equipped units I have available use smoothbore muskets. Jim-NC doesn't seem to believe there is any problem with the unit availability, so maybe he could take over China temporarily and try to prove me wrong. Needless to say, I'm very disappointed in a game that tricks the player into thinking that his technological research has any meaning.

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[Savoyard]

I think Asian countries need the 'Tom Cruise' invention to use any of the fancy, new guns. Ask Kensai about it.

[lukasberger]

Because I have reason to believe that China is doomed to use smoothbore cannons and muskets until the game ends in 1920, I'm officially quitting and opening China to anyone who wants it. I already have the tech for Dreyse Needle Guns and even Gatling Guns, but the only firearms-equipped units I have available use smoothbore muskets. Jim-NC doesn't seem to believe there is any problem with the unit availability, so maybe he could take over China temporarily and try to prove me wrong. Needless to say, I'm very disappointed in a game that tricks the player into thinking that his technological research has any meaning.

On the one hand I understand your frustration.

On the other hand the idea of China having Gatling guns in 1878 is a little (no, a lot) ridiculous. Their military is already way, way, way, way overpowered compared to their woeful, pitiful performances in the opium wars, losing battles to GB and France when they had odds of 1000 to 1 in their favour. China has already defeated GB in a war and fought Russia to a standstill in our alternate reality. Neither of which would have happened in a million years irl. We've already discussed this and decided that we can't/won't do anything about China's too powerful armies.

So overall you're far, far better off than China actually was, even with the desertions.

Of course if you're just getting frustrated and not having fun than quit by all means. This should be fun, not drudgery.

[Jonathan Pollard]

On the one hand I understand your frustration.

On the other hand the idea of China having Gatling guns in 1878 is a little (no, a lot) ridiculous.

No more ridiculous than Japan having observation balloons in 1850. Maybe the idea of China having mitrailleuses and electric torpedoes (mines) in 1878 is ridiculous to you too, but that is exactly what they had as early as 1865-76.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nanjing_Jinling_Arsenal_1865_built_by_Li_Hongzhang.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_China_before_1911

And even if Chinese Gatling guns are ridiculous in 1878, I would like to have at least the possibility of having them in 1892, when the Nanjing arsenal was making Hotchkiss, Maxim, and Nordenfeld guns. As it stands now the best infantry weapon I can hope to have as late as 1920 is the smoothbore musket.

[Kensai]

Although a graphic for a Gatling gun unit appears in the database, I don't think that technology does anything else than indeed improving the stats of all of your units, as the description says. As for observation balloons, it's the same story with auxiliaries and "minor" nations we have discussed many times in the past (even in the old forum). Do not overestimate what the auxiliaries actually do: telegraph and balloons simply provide some bonuses of CP. I have far less soldiers in the area than the complete cap of CPs provided by my Field Marshals. So their contribution in these battles is null. The only auxiliary that indeed plays some role is the medical unit, but the superior battleworthiness of the Japanese troops in our little conflict is due to cohesion differences (both max attainable and regaining) which stem from the fact Japan has a value of 9 in Imperialism as well as higher National Morale than its direct rival. The number 1 parameter in all AGEOD games is COHESION. Lose that and you are toast. Have lots of it and helpless battles will become unprecedented victories.

---

Guys, the event that fired up the Balkan War made a scripted alliance of Russia with Montenegro, Serbia, and Moldavia (strangely not with Bulgaria, the reason all this mess started in the first place). Nevertheless, I wish to propose to pass a similar script for Greece to have alliances with said nations for the duration of this war. It is not for the extra firepower, but for the silly thing that without an alliance I cannot enter a region that belongs to these nations. So even if for example the Turks have conquered Montenergo, I cannot target and enter that region to free the Montenegris. If Montenegro was played by a human player, such an alliance would have been activated without further thinking. I think I shall put this on vote.

[Citizen X]

Guys, the event that fired up the Balkan War made a scripted alliance of Russia with Montenegro, Serbia, and Moldavia (strangely not with Bulgaria, the reason all this mess started in the first place). Nevertheless, I wish to propose to pass a similar script for Greece to have alliances with said nations for the duration of this war. It is not for the extra firepower, but for the silly thing that without an alliance I cannot enter a region that belongs to these nations. So even if for example the Turks have conquered Montenergo, I cannot target and enter that region to free the Montenegris. If Montenegro was played by a human player, such an alliance would have been activated without further thinking. I think I shall put this on vote.

Things you should have considered before deliberately declaring war on your peaceful neighbors I should say. You had the opportunity to make them your allies beforehand.

[Citizen X]

Although a graphic for a Gatling gun unit appears in the database, I don't think that technology does anything else than indeed improving the stats of all of your units, as the description says. As for observation balloons, it's the same story with auxiliaries and "minor" nations we have discussed many times in the past (even in the old forum). Do not overestimate what the auxiliaries actually do: telegraph and balloons simply provide some bonuses of CP. I have far less soldiers in the area than the complete cap of CPs provided by my Field Marshals. So their contribution in these battles is null. The only auxiliary that indeed plays some role is the medical unit, but the superior battleworthiness of the Japanese troops in our little conflict is due to cohesion differences (both max attainable and regaining) which stem from the fact Japan has a value of 9 in Imperialism as well as higher National Morale than its direct rival. The number 1 parameter in all AGEOD games is COHESION. Lose that and you are toast. Have lots of it and helpless battles will become unprecedented victories.

I second that.

[Kensai]

Things you should have considered before deliberately declaring war on your peaceful neighbors I should say. You had the opportunity to make them your allies beforehand.

Sure, but the abstraction problem remains: I cannot enter an Ottoman-held (even if we are at war!!) region because it happens to be the conquered Montenegrin capital. So effectively the Ottomans in that region are cast in an invulnerability bubble.

We had a similar problem in the past: the first time the Greeks went to the Dodecanese, it was still a Turkish region but controlled by rebels. In that case, at least I was allowed to enter the region (even without being at war with the Ottomans). The engine reacted in a different way: it allows the Greeks to dispatch the rebels and returned the region to its lawful owners (the Ottomans). I was expecting something similar here, more importantly because I am at war with the Ottomans.

I simply ask to have the same abstraction for Greece as in the scripted event by the designers of the game. Only for the duration of the war.

[Citizen X]

Sure, but the abstraction problem remains: I cannot enter an Ottoman-held (even if we are at war!!) region because it happens to be the conquered Montenegrin capital. So effectively the Ottomans in that region are cast in an invulnerability bubble.

We had a similar problem in the past: the first time the Greeks went to the Dodecanese, it was still a Turkish region but controlled by rebels. In that case, at least I was allowed to enter the region (even without being at war with the Ottomans). The engine reacted in a different way: it allows the Greeks to dispatch the rebels and returned the region to its lawful owners (the Ottomans). I was expecting something similar here, more importantly because I am at war with the Ottomans.

I simply ask to have the same abstraction for Greece as in the scripted event by the designers of the game. Only for the duration of the war.

I think that rule is WAD and if it weren't there one would ask for it on many occasions, or else you could exploit a war with a nation to achieve goals against a completely different nation without actually have to DOW them.
Altering rules and/or game mechanics in midst of a war going on is a no go in my opinion, unless unforseeable effects hindered to dissolve it at all. Maybe I knew of this effect and built my entire strategy on it. Maybe (and most likely) the other balcan peoples would rather live with the Ottoman Empire than have Greek boots tread on their sacred soil. And if so, why should I saty in such a bubble? You were always so sure about this war being a defensive war on my part. It is not. I intend to maintain initiative in as much theatres as I possibly can.

------
"The Greek declared war. Now let them live with the consequences."

Ibrahim Edhem Pasha,
Vezir-i Azam

[Kensai]

You don't understand. The goal here is the correct abstraction of certain events which cannot possibly have been predicted by the game designers as Greece (and obviously the rest of the minors) were not meant to be played by humans. Moreover, this is not something that will benefit Greece as you let it appear, but those minors (Serbia, Montenegro, Moldavia) that will be possible to free them. It is almost impossible to coordinate an army (let alone navy) attack with the AI, so this is not done for my avatar nation to somehow coordinate with the (already?) defeated armies of said nations.

So how do you propose to fix this? Right now you can sit in the old Montenegrin capital and amass troops without Greece having the possibility to dispatch you unless I get passage rights from them. The AI is not smart enough to do this, in minor-to-minor relations it almost always says no to anything better than a commercial agreement, even if its destruction is imminent as in this case. The other solution is even worse: Greece will have to declare war on said nations to free them (!!?!)... You seriously do not want to "win" under these circumstances, do you? It's too gamey to have a cloak of invincibility.

Anyway, please vote, it is not critical, but it is very correct abstraction for the situation in hand. The precedence is in, the scripted event of the Russo-Turkish war of 1877.

[Jonathan Pollard]

Although a graphic for a Gatling gun unit appears in the database, I don't think that technology does anything else than indeed improving the stats of all of your units, as the description says.

Although I'm disappointed that a new unit built in 1878 has the same stats as a unit built in 1850, I did some further checking and concluded that it's indeed possible that some Chinese Gatling guns are present on the field. I have no problem with smoothbore infantry in 1920 as long as the stats of the 1920 infantry is better than the stats for smoothbores in 1850, because it would represent a small percentage of the unit being equipped with machine guns and modern rifles while the rest of the unit uses smoothbores. I checked on the map and indeed some of my more experienced smoothbore units have a defensive fire rating of 21 whereas a new smoothbore unit has a 16 defensive fire rating. And it would be logical for the most experienced units to be given priority for the limited quantity of modern weaponry available. Indeed, I have an experienced levy unit that ordinarily would have no firearms and stats of 0/0 that now is officially smoothbore-equipped and has stats of 15/22 for offensive and defensive fire. So I will continue with the game.

[Citizen X]

You don't understand. The goal here is the correct abstraction of certain events which cannot possibly have been predicted by the game designers as Greece (and obviously the rest of the minors) were not meant to be played by humans. Moreover, this is not something that will benefit Greece as you let it appear, but those minors (Serbia, Montenegro, Moldavia) that will be possible to free them. It is almost impossible to coordinate an army (let alone navy) attack with the AI, so this is not done for my avatar nation to somehow coordinate with the (already?) defeated armies of said nations.

So how do you propose to fix this? Right now you can sit in the old Montenegrin capital and amass troops without Greece having the possibility to dispatch you unless I get passage rights from them. The AI is not smart enough to do this, in minor-to-minor relations it almost always says no to anything better than a commercial agreement, even if its destruction is imminent as in this case. The other solution is even worse: Greece will have to declare war on said nations to free them (!!?!)... You seriously do not want to "win" under these circumstances, do you? It's too gamey to have a cloak of invincibility.

Anyway, please vote, it is not critical, but it is very correct abstraction for the situation in hand. The precedence is in, the scripted event of the Russo-Turkish war of 1877.

No!
You don't understand.
First of all, that going to war can have unpredictable effects. Then that the historic situation (you will appreciate this reference) wasn't at all a concerted action between the balcan nations against the OE. At the contrary in fact. The others hated the Greek alsmost as much as the Turcish, because they felt being looked down upon by them, especially true for the Albanians and the Montenegrinians. That's so much for that.
Then again. What makes you think that I am hiding out in Montenegro. Had you not brought up the issue, I hadn't thought a minute about it. But had I, in full awareness of what will happen with the chain of events and counted on it you could hardly complain, taking in account that the GREEK declared war on the OTTOMANS and not the other way around. What makes you think that you will even ever be in the position to "free" anybody there? Or that you will be allowed to keep an army to free even your own soil?
Third I will tell you what in real is gamey. Declaring war on a neighbor who happens to be in a week position and hasn't got time to prepare himself or even toget to know his fellow players right. Doing so in the shadow of a big brother in the expectation that he will clear the path for you, "steamroll" it, as you put it, and then in the slightest hint of difficulties apply for an even bigger brother and have game mechanics altered in the favour of the already greatly advantaged aggressor. Now that's gamey.
Especially in the light of a certain other country that just smashes the armies of another player who has been in the game for an even shorter time. Taken in account that just a few turns ago said country took advantage of a faulty AI that couldnt negotiate it's way out of a deadly trap and had half its army destroyed, in my book this is actually supergamey, but nothing of my concern.

You waged war. Now are you the man to live with the consequences?

I ask everybody who is against altering the course of actions by script in the favour of a single nation to vote with *NO". There is no reason gamewise or other to do so.

[lukasberger]

Gonna be honest Kensai, I think that if we don't give China back any chits to replace it's disastrous and unrealistic losses, then we shouldn't give Greece any scripted alliances.

The two situations are similar (limitations of the game engine) and you were against helping China. I don't think it's fair to essentially say to China "you lost half your army to a silly and unrealistic limitation of the engine, suck it up and deal with it" and then run to script Greece some alliances the engine didn't give it.

So if there's a vote on both, I'll vote yes on both. But if the only vote will be on the Greek situation than I'll have to vote no.

[Kensai]

I am afraid this is going to a different direction. I have always been FOR correcting any limitations, provided we can with a single, straight-forward script (as we did for the Ottos with the locked Guards), even as recurring event (as we do with the POWs or various loans). These issues are not the same: the unrealistic limitation of the Balkan nations' lack of possibility of alliance with Greece is seriously hurting THEM (not Greece). You want me to prove it to you? Would you like to make these nations playable for humans and check out their first diplomatic moves?

The China problem is not necessarily a limitation (albeit a disturbing one), it's knowing about it and doing the economics to always account for maintenance. If you forget about maintenance, you suffer the consequences. Straightforward. More than that, I would have been ok to fix it, but how? Provide China with replacement chits? But this is not its problem, China can buy a gargantuan number of replacement chits each turn. It's not its bottleneck. Do you mean to "recreate its damaged armies"? How? Good luck with that... you will need to count the countless units (and elements!!) that got damaged and recreate them from their models, plus disband the new units Jonathan recruited while not accounting for maintenance.

[lukasberger]

The China problem is not necessarily a limitation (albeit a disturbing one), it's knowing about it and doing the economics to always account for maintenance. If you forget about maintenance, you suffer the consequences. Straightforward.

That's fine. The limitation comes in in that when you forget to budget 50 conscripts your losses are so disastrous that it takes 10000 conscripts and abundant money and supplies to rectify the damages. That's the engine limitation that's totally and completely unrealistic. The consequences are something like a factor of 10 greater than the original oversight.

You could say that it's a mutiny, but would troops that are generally well fed and cared for actually mutiny nationwide after not receiving their pay, or replacements, or even all of their food during one two week period? No, not at all.

As for what to do, yes I'd say give China some free chits that they don't have to pay for. Maybe not enough to cover 100% of their losses but enough to cover most of them.