Hi,
is there a limit of supply that can be shipped in? Is it a difference to take a harbour of size 1 or size 3?
How many men can the union supplied if they move from Ft. Monroe to richmond? Is there a limit depending of the size of the harbour?
Yes there is a limit, and I think (I am not sure) the bigger the harbor, the more supply you get. I took Richmond from the sea once, and found out you cannot supply an army there without a land link. You can supply maybe 1-2 corps (up to 40000 men). I think it is historical and at the moment it works just fine.
I wish I could help you out on this, but I don't know the numbers. I can help you out with the explanation of sea supply mechanics. At the beginning of every turn game cheks what port has excess supply and what port has excess need. The depot in the port and units(supply wagons) in the port provide extra need. It seems, as long your invasion force stays in the town you have taken, provided you have enough ship transports in the shipping box (Union always does), your units in the port you have taken, provided it is a sea port (not a river port) will always draw enough supply.
The problem arises when you try to move your force inland, with the harbor being the only supply depot for your inland force. If you have only one small harbor with depot, without units in it, it will not draw enough supply for you big inland force. The game will forget about your inland force supply draw and compare the harbor depot supply with the other harbors on the Union cost. Of course, your harbor depot will pull supply from other harbors, but not enough to push enormous supply inland.
If you look at actual history, this model is actually on the spot. Union never ventured far from their coastal bases, for example Savannah was captured from the land despite a coastal fort being taken a couple of years before that.
The problem arises when you try to move your force inland, with the harbor being the only supply depot for your inland force. If you have only one small harbor with depot, without units in it, it will not draw enough supply for you big inland force. The game will forget about your inland force supply draw and compare the harbor depot supply with the other harbors on the Union cost. Of course, your harbor depot will pull supply from other harbors, but not enough to push enormous supply inland.
If you look at actual history, this model is actually on the spot. Union never ventured far from their coastal bases, for example Savannah was captured from the land despite a coastal fort being taken a couple of years before that.
Not necessarily. If you have more than one port with depot, you can move inland at will. Or if you hold big town like New Orleans, you can supply troops with its production alone. The key is to have more ports with depots. One will sustain 2 corps, 3 ports can sustain whole Army of Potomac.
For example, if you hold Charleston and Savannah, nothing is preventing you from going to Atlanta.
For example, if you hold Charleston and Savannah, nothing is preventing you from going to Atlanta.
Yes, that is why amphibious operations can never be single offensive operation at a time. It needs to be coupled with frontline activity as well. Just to point it out, when defending in a swamp, usual terrain in Southern coast, you do not need more than 2 divisions. If CSA chooses to beat your 2 divisions entrenched in swamp, be sure they are considerably weakening their front line because they will need at least 6 their divisions for that.
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Captain_Orso
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IIRC the Hatteras Forts each with only a small garrison will have about 250 - 350 GS in them at nearly all times as long as you have abundant GS and naval transport capacity in general, which as the Union should always be the case. Larger harbor towns such as Wilmington, Savannah and Charleston will have considerably more; easily over 1000 if it is being drawn on.
The supply distribution code seems to be aware of a certain amount of 'flow', although that my be an illusion through the algorithm simply comparing size of the town/harbor(/depot) combination, amount of supply stored in said location and the 'pull' on that supply source from nearby forces. If the supply surplus drops, a large amount of supply is sent.
I think this is how the small Hatteras Forts wind up with so much supply, which they certainly don't start out with. A little supply is used by the garrison, some 'decays' and the code say 'send more supply', which coincidentally is enough that the new supply reserve is larger than the original. This continues until a limit is reached depending on the the size of the fort/town/harbor, as long as the 'pull' isn't changing.
A full division will use about 40 GS per turn measured by a division with a single supply unit--4 elements--outside the range of any incoming supply from towns or depots, but not counting usage for replacing cohesion loss through marching or hit and cohesion loss through weather and battle.
The danger of having only one coastal harbor from which to draw supply I think is less the amount of supply you are trying to push through it--unless you are trying to supply 12 divisions through a level 1 harbor--but the danger of a single line of supply being cut the further away from the coast you advance. With only Charleston or Savannah as a supply base and the other in CS hand you will always have a very predominant threat to your supply line from the one you don't control if you step off and march inland. Securing your supply lines is more than half of the game.
Although I've never actually done this I know that to move on Atlanta from the sea you will have to open an entire additional front, not just a 'blitzkrieg' like thrust up the middle. How large of an effort this will be is dependent on the amount of resistance the South is and can offer. Think of it as comparable to your push on Richmond; the difference being that the distance is longer and the salients left and right are not bolstered by the Appalachians in the West and the Atlantic in the East.
The supply distribution code seems to be aware of a certain amount of 'flow', although that my be an illusion through the algorithm simply comparing size of the town/harbor(/depot) combination, amount of supply stored in said location and the 'pull' on that supply source from nearby forces. If the supply surplus drops, a large amount of supply is sent.
I think this is how the small Hatteras Forts wind up with so much supply, which they certainly don't start out with. A little supply is used by the garrison, some 'decays' and the code say 'send more supply', which coincidentally is enough that the new supply reserve is larger than the original. This continues until a limit is reached depending on the the size of the fort/town/harbor, as long as the 'pull' isn't changing.
A full division will use about 40 GS per turn measured by a division with a single supply unit--4 elements--outside the range of any incoming supply from towns or depots, but not counting usage for replacing cohesion loss through marching or hit and cohesion loss through weather and battle.
The danger of having only one coastal harbor from which to draw supply I think is less the amount of supply you are trying to push through it--unless you are trying to supply 12 divisions through a level 1 harbor--but the danger of a single line of supply being cut the further away from the coast you advance. With only Charleston or Savannah as a supply base and the other in CS hand you will always have a very predominant threat to your supply line from the one you don't control if you step off and march inland. Securing your supply lines is more than half of the game.
Although I've never actually done this I know that to move on Atlanta from the sea you will have to open an entire additional front, not just a 'blitzkrieg' like thrust up the middle. How large of an effort this will be is dependent on the amount of resistance the South is and can offer. Think of it as comparable to your push on Richmond; the difference being that the distance is longer and the salients left and right are not bolstered by the Appalachians in the West and the Atlantic in the East.
Thanks Cpt_Orso for dropping post on the subject. I don't have too much experience with naval supply. As I said before, I couldn't support AoP without the land link, only form Richmond(lvl 3 harbor I think). The mechanics were one turn the depot in Richmond is completely full. Then next turn it would be completely depleted as it was pushed ahead, then next turn it would be filled again, etc.
So supply was coming but intermittently and not without problems. Consequently, I chose to establish more stable supply line than to rely only on single harbor.
So supply was coming but intermittently and not without problems. Consequently, I chose to establish more stable supply line than to rely only on single harbor.
Mickey3D wrote:There is also an important parameter for US player : the maximum amount of supply shipped to distant harbors is linked with the number of transports in the atlantic box. At the moment I don't remember the ratio but it must be somewhere in the wiki or in the rules and I'll tried to find it.
Here is the answer extracted from the wiki :
Your capacity will be 10 times the transport capacity you have in the Atlantic shipping box.
The full paragraph about Ocean supply for those who are interested :
Supply by sea is quite different [...], and takes place in its own phase. Your capacity will be 10 times the transport capacity you have in the Atlantic shipping box. Supply will be moved from ports with lots to ports that don't have that much. Range is generally not an issue for supply distributed in this manner.
To distribute supplies via the Shipping Box, the game engine will try to equalize the ratio of supplies to harbor size for each port. A port or coastal depot will receive supply based on the ratio of current stocks to harbor level compared with the same ratio in the source city, with the ideal ratio of 100 supply points per harbor level: e.g., you have 100 supply points in a level 10 harbor. NYC is a level 20 harbor with 2900 supply. So NYC will send 900 supply to your level 10 harbor, bringing them both to a ratio of 100/1. Supply by sea is much simpler than overland supply, and does not take into account the “magnet” factors for land supply, such as the presence of depots or troops, or city size. All that matters is the level of supply stocks relative size of the harbor, after supplies have been distributed overland. Although it seems simple, Pocus has commented that the process “is not perfect.”
Supply by sea is quite different [...], and takes place in its own phase. Your capacity will be 10 times the transport capacity you have in the Atlantic shipping box. Supply will be moved from ports with lots to ports that don't have that much. Range is generally not an issue for supply distributed in this manner.
To distribute supplies via the Shipping Box, the game engine will try to equalize the ratio of supplies to harbor size for each port. A port or coastal depot will receive supply based on the ratio of current stocks to harbor level compared with the same ratio in the source city, with the ideal ratio of 100 supply points per harbor level: e.g., you have 100 supply points in a level 10 harbor. NYC is a level 20 harbor with 2900 supply. So NYC will send 900 supply to your level 10 harbor, bringing them both to a ratio of 100/1. Supply by sea is much simpler than overland supply, and does not take into account the “magnet” factors for land supply, such as the presence of depots or troops, or city size. All that matters is the level of supply stocks relative size of the harbor, after supplies have been distributed overland. Although it seems simple, Pocus has commented that the process “is not perfect.”
Also, remember that all harbors on the coast are in the "pool" so to speak. They are all looking to either give or receive supply (including the west coast - California for example). Thus, Richmond may be competing with your army in New Orleans for supply.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Captain_Orso
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I'm pretty sure that supply usage and/or the presence of units does play a role in how much Naval Supply a harbor/fort receives. Before I've taken New Orleans I have to supply my Gulf Blockade strictly through Forts Pickens, Jefferson and Zachary; generally only Pickens because of the distance. But I keep a close watch on how much supply is where in case of emergencies. If I'm having luck and only need to use Fort Pickens, Forts Jefferson and Zachary remain at around 125 GS--although it can fall to about 90 during stormy weather--but I'll often see the GS in Fort Pickens raise as high as 350 depending on how much GS is being given to transports shuttling between there and the Gulf Blockade Box; at times it falls to 0 if I need a lot of GS and winter storms are slowing the arrival of GS into the Fort.
Also, if Fort Pickens is being threatened or attacked I'll reinforce its garrisons with up to 2 divisions. Their presence alone will cause more supply to be sent to Fort Pickens. If Fort Pickens were only to receive GS up to 100 times its harbor level then it wouldn't be able to support the Gulf Blockade plus the reinforced garrison.
I know that there are limits however. During games in which I invaded LA with a very large force--2 corps with 3 divisions each and sundry extra garrison and cavalry units--I've seen that before New Orleans has been taken, the supply situation in the Gulf can become dramatic in that all the needs of the units present--land and naval, including the invasion fleet--cannot be fulfilled even if Fort Pike has already been taken, offering a fourth supply base on which to draw. I've had to send the invasion fleet away to reduce supply consumption in the Gulf before I was sure of a strong foothold.
Also, the further down the southern coast you go, the less supply that will be arriving. After taking the Hatteras Forts they will often have 300 to 400 GS in them after a short wait; and as I've mentioned, Forts Jefferson and Zachary float at around 100 to 125. This is without anything else going on in or near them; just the static situation.
Also, if Fort Pickens is being threatened or attacked I'll reinforce its garrisons with up to 2 divisions. Their presence alone will cause more supply to be sent to Fort Pickens. If Fort Pickens were only to receive GS up to 100 times its harbor level then it wouldn't be able to support the Gulf Blockade plus the reinforced garrison.
I know that there are limits however. During games in which I invaded LA with a very large force--2 corps with 3 divisions each and sundry extra garrison and cavalry units--I've seen that before New Orleans has been taken, the supply situation in the Gulf can become dramatic in that all the needs of the units present--land and naval, including the invasion fleet--cannot be fulfilled even if Fort Pike has already been taken, offering a fourth supply base on which to draw. I've had to send the invasion fleet away to reduce supply consumption in the Gulf before I was sure of a strong foothold.
Also, the further down the southern coast you go, the less supply that will be arriving. After taking the Hatteras Forts they will often have 300 to 400 GS in them after a short wait; and as I've mentioned, Forts Jefferson and Zachary float at around 100 to 125. This is without anything else going on in or near them; just the static situation.
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Captain_Orso
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To 'Brown-Water-Blockade' a harbor you must occupy all of the exit points of the harbor--generally just one--with the coastal/river regions blockade value, which you can only experience by having naval units in that exit point. Generally the value is 8--which means you need 8 naval, combat elements to blockade. The number can be increased by adjacent enemy artillery and decreased by friendly adjacent artillery. The affects are that production in the harbor town/city is halved. Also, the probability of intercepting ships trying to leave or enter the harbor is greatly increased.
I fairly certain that if a harbor is blockaded all naval supply will also be blockaded[SUP]1)[/SUP]. I'm also fairly sure that to just block supply from getting to a harbor through the exit-point you can use fewer ships, but production will not be affected, but I can't find that reference at the moment and to block all supply from entering a town with a harbor you practically must be besieging it and blockading the harbor.
[SUP]1)[/SUP] Naval supply can be pretty abstract.
I fairly certain that if a harbor is blockaded all naval supply will also be blockaded[SUP]1)[/SUP]. I'm also fairly sure that to just block supply from getting to a harbor through the exit-point you can use fewer ships, but production will not be affected, but I can't find that reference at the moment and to block all supply from entering a town with a harbor you practically must be besieging it and blockading the harbor.
[SUP]1)[/SUP] Naval supply can be pretty abstract.
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