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Jim-NC
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 8:23 pm

Sir Garnet wrote:The Americas are last in the transaction sequence, meaning that is where shortage of PC becomes most evident. Requests for Brazilian products often exceed actual sales even when there is supply available. The main reason is probably shortage of PC. Another may be excess requests exceeding supply being dropped even thought those first in line don't buy all they request.

That is a question for the devs I suppose.


I started the turn with over 5k in private capital. So it couldn't have been a capital problem (I ended with 4.5K after purchases and structure building), but must have been something else. Maybe you are correct, as this is the 1st turn with my private capital so low (I inherited a really large amount of PC). But I would have thought 4+k in capital would have been enough for all purchases.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Kensai
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:00 pm

Late October 1874
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coolbean
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:41 pm

nemethand wrote:Something similar to what US troops are doing in China? :confused:


Exactly! And the German-Russian Union was even given fair warning, which was a convenience not levied in other circumstances which will go unnamed:

coolbean wrote:If Austria making peace with Germany and then moving to protect German cities from their former ally, then saying that the former friend must declare war on Austria in order to move them makes sense to you, then surely the USA putting a unit in every Chinese city in order to protect them from the Russians must also make sense.

I wouldn't be making such a big deal about this if I didn't believe it was completely game breaking and game altering, not to mention completely unfair to anyone who is the victim of it.


If Russia and Germany are comfortable hiding behind small bands of neutral units which block opposing armies from capturing whole cities, then surely they won't mind USA troops moving to protect Chinese and French assets.

And here we run into the problem; nobody thinks this is an exploit until they are the victim of it. Guys, this exploit has changed this game so many times already, and at least one person has left (sagji) because of it. It needs to be banned.

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nemethand
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:06 pm

coolbean wrote:Exactly! And the German-Russian Union was even given fair warning, which was a convenience not levied in other circumstances which will go unnamed:

If Russia and Germany are comfortable hiding behind small bands of neutral units which block opposing armies from capturing whole cities, then surely they won't mind USA troops moving to protect Chinese and French assets.


Could you give an example, where Russian forces hid behind neutral ones? Only a single one would suffice.

EDIT - BTW, you cannot "hide" behind neutral units, a battle will occur. Neutral units can only prevent the occupation of a city - don't they? Although, it seems that in China it did not work - supply wagons haven't prevented the occupation of several cities. Finally, a distinction was made: where you move full/partial armies, they may be considered as a threatening force. Moving single and NON-COMBAT units - supply wagons - is a clear and intentional [insert expression you wish].

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:08 pm

nemethand wrote:Could you give an example, where Russian forces hid behind neutral ones? Only a single one would suffice.



Germany, Russia's closest and eternal ally, is. From the lack of comment coming from St. Petersburg, it was determined this meant acquiescence.

If Russia, or nemethand personally, disagrees with using this exploit it should clarify that position and do something about it.

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coolbean
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:11 pm

The supply wagons were supposed to demonstrate how pointless and childish this whole exercise was. Apparently they either are irrelevant or arrived too late.

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nemethand
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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:16 pm

coolbean wrote:Germany, Russia's closest and eternal ally, is. From the lack of comment coming from St. Petersburg, it was determined this meant acquiescence.

If Russia, or nemethand personally, disagrees with using this exploit it should clarify that position and do something about it.


So, we can agree that Russia - or myself - has never been a beneficiary of such a conduct, can we? It may be a good start :)

Sorry, Russia has nothing to do with it; it is a game(y) mechanism, which must be considered OOC. You may also recall that I, personally, instead of deciding what is the proper conduct, had asked for a majority opinion, when Russian armies (!) were considered.

What could I do? Slap Brian or Lukas virtually on the wrists? IC, will answer shortly.

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Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:18 pm

nemethand wrote:So, we can agree that Russia - or myself - has never been a beneficiary of such a conduct, can we? It may be a good start :)

Sorry, Russia has nothing to do with it; it is a game(y) mechanism, which must be considered OOC. You may also recall that I, personally, instead of deciding what is the proper conduct, had asked for a majority opinion, when Russian armies (!) were considered.

What could I do? Slap Brian or Lukas virtually on the wrists? IC, will answer shortly.


Thank you. No, Russia has never been the direct beneficiary of such tactics.

From a lack of comment I had assumed you agreed with the tactic, and for that I apologize.

While at work today I think I came up with an IC solution to this; a treaty that stated all signatories would not partake or be a party to such actions. I.e, all signatories would agree they wouldn't personally do the trick, and if an ally of a signatory was involved or benefited from such actions they would cancel supply/passage/DA with the offender.

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bjfagan
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Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:18 am

coolbean wrote:Thank you. No, Russia has never been the direct beneficiary of such tactics.

From a lack of comment I had assumed you agreed with the tactic, and for that I apologize.

While at work today I think I came up with an IC solution to this; a treaty that stated all signatories would not partake or be a party to such actions. I.e, all signatories would agree they wouldn't personally do the trick, and if an ally of a signatory was involved or benefited from such actions they would cancel supply/passage/DA with the offender.



This treaty idea could be created under the auspices of the Hague Conference. However, instead I feel the situation should generate a CB for whomever is the harmed party and a prestige penalty to the other party causing the harmful action. There are two possible situations that can occur. First is if a belligerent attacks into a country and runs up against sitting neutral forces. The second is if neutral forces are sent into a battle zone for the purpose of distrupting the offensive operations of a belligerent. The first situation should give a CB to the neutral and a prestige penalty to the belligerent, since the belligerent attacked deep into a country and could have caused harm to the neutral. The second situation should give a CB to the belligerent and a prestige penalty to the neutral, since the neutral knew where the warzone was and should not have ventured into it knowingly distrupting the offesive operations of a belligerent.


We should also consider the situation where a country recaptures the territory and structures of an ally from the enemy of that ally. In this case all structures should be returned to the ally when they receive the in-game message, "Thanks to our treaty with ????, they gave back their military control of region ????." This is a problem with the game engine that should be corrected. Right now the USA owns all structures in Lille that should have been returned to France right after they were recaptured from Belgium. Not returning these is more of a gamey, or "abusive" action, as is moving neutral forces into a territory.

It should also be noted here, that no French offensive operations were affected by Austrian neutrals. Whereas the Americans have now used what was only a possibility as an excuse to actually affect and disrupt the offensive operations of Germany. But so be it.

Coolbean, I don't mind you trying to fix this issue with the game, but don't take the moral high ground on this issue and make me out to be an abuser of game mechanics, when you are doing the exact same thing.

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Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:49 am

coolbean wrote:While at work today I think I came up with an IC solution to this; a treaty that stated all signatories would not partake or be a party to such actions. I.e, all signatories would agree they wouldn't personally do the trick, and if an ally of a signatory was involved or benefited from such actions they would cancel supply/passage/DA with the offender.


I like that idea. I like the idea of dealing with in game issues in character insofar as we can do so.

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Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:22 am

bjfagan wrote:Coolbean, I don't mind you trying to fix this issue with the game, but don't take the moral high ground on this issue and make me out to be an abuser of game mechanics, when you are doing the exact same thing.


I'm not claiming any moral high ground. I just want these actions banned.

I've only started copying the tactic now because I am trying to demonstrate that it is a major abuse, and sometimes it takes actually being the victim of it to appreciate how much of an exploit it is. Unfortunately I think there are still people who don't think it is a major problem. While it is great to solve things in game, I think this is an actual break in the game. No dev has responded yet saying this is WAD, and I have a hard time believing this was an intentional design.

While I normally prefer settling as many game play issues in game, I see both this and the structures issue as design flaws that must be compensated by out of game official rules and scripting, because they are in my opinion issues that would only be seen in an MP game and therefore never seen in order to fix for a patch.

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Sat Mar 09, 2013 5:48 am

I believe the prestige penalty and CB process that I described above is a good way to discourage the use. Otherwise, we would need to create a rule that states no forces of a neutral country can be inside the territory of another country that is at war.

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unclejoe
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Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:51 am

bjfagan wrote:I believe the prestige penalty and CB process that I described above is a good way to discourage the use. Otherwise, we would need to create a rule that states no forces of a neutral country can be inside the territory of another country that is at war.

Idle Thoughts
Or that said nation/neutral is doing so at their peril as Garnet suggests.......Or is No Longer Neutral.
If one is not neutral..... what is one?

It seems reasonable to have a Friend (hence non-neutral) fight rebels in one's country to free up troops for War. But as I put in parenthesis....they become non-neutral.
There are other reasons for Other troops to be inside one's Nation.....Passage Rights.....Passing Thru.....They need to keep moving if that is the case.
Helping to stabilize a city, can be a good reason. But if War is on.....they are/need to be At Risk.....they are not Neutral anyway, they are assisting the Nation they are in.

All the way around ...... looks like troops in another country are Not Neutral, unless Moving.

Perhaps there can be a case for troops sitting where they were prior to War being Declared? Seems if they stay very long, they are at risk. And were they Neutral anyway........no.

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Sat Mar 09, 2013 7:39 am

I don't see an obstacle to a treaty among players to forge CBs to attack any neutral who does not flee a war zone, just as treaties can be made for other purposes even contrary to this.

In terms of mandating something to fix this flaw, my suggestion to deal with abuse above is simply one way the risk/provocation posed to forces in harm's way can be represented (abstracted, as Kensai might say) in game. I think the risk and uncertainty faced by both countries not at war wth each other or two alliances not at war with each other should be represented. There may be deadlock, concession, or war.

I think giving CBs and getting into the DA morass is the wrong direction to go, but if that is the way then it ought to be the choice of either party to demand "go back or go to war" from the other side. Either side can avoid sparking a war by backing down from the other's demand. If neither wants to risk a war by making a demand, they need to work around it. No forge CB would be required - which is excessive at a flashpoint and inequitable to countries without many, or any, diplomats.

Simply scripting a state of war when things turn south is better than a CB as the problem is solved but neither is the aggressor, and the party gets a war, not the choice of war or peace.

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Kensai
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Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:45 am

The game has already facilities to dislodge rivals (neutral or fighting). Please use them.

Anyway, from the mouse of the horse, everything is alright with the beet diffusion technology, it will unblock by 1890.

Exactly... before, that prerequisite was not present so you could start the research without a problem anytime you wanted... but that ended up in a weird situation were you could research it waaaaay ahead of time (and have sugar3 almost 20 years before sugar2).
This is why in your ongoing game the tech is now stuck, because the new prerequisite doesn't allow you to continue researching it.
But when you finally get the sugar2 tech, you will be able to resume your research normally... ;-)

Cheers.
Fer

2013/3/8 Kensai

Aha. Then maybe that's the reason it has stuck for Japan at 39% for some years now and neither me or other nations can "hurry it" with money (it gets deselected by next turn).

Perhaps this was a change on a patch and since it was applied on an ongoing game it had the R&D for this tech stopped. Once the prerequisites (another tech by 1890) are met it will start again.

Do I interpret this correctly?


Sent from my iPhone, please excuse any typos.

k

On 08.03.2013, at 12:34, Fernando wrote:

> Hi!
>
> Jumping on the discussion... the beet diffusion tech gives nations the ability to make the sugar3 structure, so that's a late game tech that should arrive near the 1890-1900 period... that's why now it will become available AFTER you get the sugar cane nobilization (that gives you the sugar2 structure), not before.
> You may get confused by the StartDate of beet difusion, that's because BEFORE you could research it much earlier in the campaign if you wanted, but now with that prerequisite it makes more historical sense. ;-)
>
> Cheers.
> Fer
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bjfagan
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Sat Mar 09, 2013 9:11 pm

Early November 1874 coming up.

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bjfagan
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:13 am

Moved from Diplomacy thread.

Vezina wrote:Mutually assured destruction, my &$@! You ruined Egypt. Go back and look how no structures were destroyed in Germany until a couple of turns ago. That was a turn or two after Lindi told me you cleared Cairo. Anything I destroyed was payback for you firing first. Notice how nothing else has been destroyed even though I still control the Rhine. If I wanted mutual destruction, wouldn't I still be clearing structures?


The structure destroyed was the ammo factory in Cairo. I don't know what Lindi told you. Again, I was living up to the Hague Conference, however I don't believe Egypt would qualify as a civilized European country at this time to receive the same consideration from another European country. I doubt you understand what MAD (mutual assured destruction) means. It means I can destroy you just as completely as you can destroy me, therefore we won't do anything to each other. Why do you think there has been no nuclear war by now, it is because of MAD. If Germany captured many French economic structures, those could be destroyed for each German structure destroyed by France. Hopefully, with that realization France would not destroy any German factories. That my friend is mutual assured destruction.


Despite this having nothing to do with what's going on, there is no way your strategy would work in real life. No country would ever attack without knowing that it had secure supply lines. German armies stuck in the middle of France with no lines home would be screwed in real life because they would not continue to receive supplies and especially not replacements. Thanks, game engine. Furthermore, France's armies would still receive upkeep even with Paris gone. Its not like cutting Paris destroys the entirety of the logistics of France. The only thing saving you right now is the wonkiness of how the game engine has to handle conscripts through the capital. Do American recruits go to Washington in reality? No, but that's the only way the game can handle it.


Only in your reality would there be some kind of magical wall around Belgium that would prevent supplies getting through. In reality, Belgium would have either given in to German pressure and done nothing or would have gotten steamrolled as German units moved through. Belgium just got smacked hard by France, USA and Italy, it was in no position to seriously oppose Germany. Also, supplies could be captured from French cities as they were taken or temporary ports built to bring in supplies, which is what I did.

As for your point on France continuing to receive replacements even without Paris, I do not disagree with you. However, don't blame me I did not design this game.


Only in the most twisted way would someone read a demand that says "Leave Belgium" when you are moving through Belgium to get to France as "Continue Attacking." If you have no reading comprehension of the English language, that is one thing. I know better than that about you, though. Considering that it was your side that came up with the neutral interference BS, I really shouldn't be surprised. WWII-era Germany would've been proud of your rationalizations.


I read their demands the way I wanted to read those demands. Little Belgium was not going to ruin German warplans. Although my plans could have been ruined when Belgium lied to me and changed his mind after Germany accepted his demands to continue passage rights. But luckily my forces got through anyways. This is a game of power politics among nations. This exchange between Germany and Belgium was the first real situation resembling the hardball diplomacy that goes on between countries.

This seriously reminds me of someone playing something like Axis and Allies that wouldn't allow another player to place his reinforcements because he already picked up his money. You might be technically correct and can twist it any way you want to make it sound good in your head, but it doesn't make you any less of a freaking dick for doing it.


Vezina, now you are starting to whine like a girl.

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Vezina
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:30 am

I realize what mutually assured destruction is. Since you seem unable to comprehend what you read beyond the literal reading, my point was trying to invoke MAD goes right out of the window when you already fired first. I'm not going to hold back if you aren't. I also realize that calling you a dick is not "whining like a girl." I haven't called for a roll-back, a stoppage of turns, some inane prestige penalty that has zero effect on the game like you enjoy or even quit the game over this mess. I'm still here in the middle of my loss, even if I consider the loss for BS reasons.

What I consider "whining like a girl" would be stuff like demanding the game stop because of a glitch affecting you that everyone else deals with in war, including France. The rest of us wait until the end of the war for a clean-up script, but that's not good enough for you.

E.g.:

Wait, I have to lose out on my production in eastern Germany and lose production in western Germany to the French all at the same time? That is not fair and works as a definite handicap to Germany. The game engine was supposed to return everything in the province to Germany after Russia took it back from Austria, but the game did not do it.

I don't really feel like waiting around for an indefinite period of time until someone figures out how to fix the problem, unless we pause the game and do not process any more turns.

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Lindi
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:46 pm

bjfagan wrote:Moved from Diplomacy thread.



The structure destroyed was the ammo factory in Cairo. I don't know what Lindi told you. Again, I was living up to the Hague Conference, however I don't believe Egypt would qualify as a civilized European country at this time to receive the same consideration from another European country. I doubt you understand what MAD (mutual assured destruction) means. It means I can destroy you just as completely as you can destroy me, therefore we won't do anything to each other. Why do you think there has been no nuclear war by now, it is because of MAD. If Germany captured many French economic structures, those could be destroyed for each German structure destroyed by France. Hopefully, with that realization France would not destroy any German factories. That my friend is mutual assured destruction.




For civilized people, I am Ally with Ottoman, and French and I have Suez Canal and Factory. I need what more? For civilized, maybe not considered by all countri, but for Germany if Ottoman are not false Ally with Egypt and Germany you need to considered me for a normal contry not advance but not tribal.

Other, ammo factory when you have only 4 factory is really considered not civil? Economic is economie, the egypt have really small industry, so if you destroy only 1 structure it's really big for Egypt. (private money by turn is less 80). Also if Egypt not civilized contry the germany is a civilized contry and destroy all economic is civilized? All economic of friend to Ottoman, Ottoman are ally with you...

I understand you need fast stop war, but I said you that change not, I not Traitor so what you win to destroy all?

[Ho for destroy factory list is now, the destroy of Quairo is in begin war]

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bjfagan
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:30 pm

If Egypt had not been so stubborn and agreed to Germany's surrender terms, then the factory could have been rebuilt if requested. Voila, Egypt would be no worse off than before the war. Although, a non-military factory would have been built in its place instead. Germany has tried to be reasonable in this affair to the Egyptians, even though their attack came as a stab in the back. German troops needed to leave Egypt as quickly as possible. I hope their stubborn support for France has paid off.


The destruction of the ammo factory in Cairo was perfectly within the bounds of the Hague Conference. Germany lived up to the spirit of the treaty even though she is not a signatory to it. France however, in retaliation, violated the spirit of the treaty so multiple non-military factories and mines could be destoryed in Germany. France had cast aside her "good guy" image based on a technicality, based on the premise that Germany was not a signatory. A true and legal argument. Germany used the same kind of technical and legal argument to say that Belgium did not cancel their passage rights and the Treaty of Maubeuge did not call for it nor prohibit the movement of German troops through their country. Next time I suggest not using such vague language as "align strategic policies indefinitely to the mutual benefit" of said countries. This could mean almost anything.

In any event, France should draw worldwide condemnation for destruction of German property in clear violation of the spirit of the Hague treaty, just as Germany should be condemned for abusing Belgium's neutrality. Both France and Germany are not perfect little angels in this war. Kind of like real world affairs.


Late November 1874

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Vezina
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:47 pm

bjfagan wrote:The destruction of the ammo factory in Cairo was perfectly within the bounds of the Hague Conference. Germany lived up to the spirit of the treaty even though she is not a signatory to it. France however, in retaliation, violated the spirit of the treaty so multiple non-military factories and mines could be destoryed in Germany. France had cast aside her "good guy" image based on a technicality, based on the premise that Germany was not a signatory. A true and legal argument. Germany used the same kind of technical and legal argument to say that Belgium did not cancel their passage rights and the Treaty of Maubeuge did not call for it nor prohibit the movement of German troops through their country. Next time I suggest not using such vague language as "align strategic policies indefinitely to the mutual benefit" of said countries. This could mean almost anything.



When you are party to a treaty, you can speak of the spirit of a treaty. It was made quite clear in discussions that only signatories would be protected so that rogue states couldn't hide behind the treaty while still destroying what they wanted. Germany made no effort to be part of the Hague Conference, so it has no capacity to hide behind it.

I don't know how well you did in English, but it's time for an English lesson. "To the mutual benefit of X and Y" means that it benefits both X and Y. Therefore, if a policy of granting passage to Germany hurts Y, then X will not do it. Regardless, even if the treaty stated "Belgium is specifically forbidden from giving Germany passage rights" and he forgot to cancel them, you still would've used them. You've said so yourself multiple times, such as "Little Belgium wasn't going to ruin Germany's warplans" and "Germany would just move through and dare them to stop them." First, it's a bureaucratic snafu, next, it's hardball diplomacy, then it's nothing could stop mighty Germany from doing what it wanted, now it's a vague treaty. Here's an idea: Try making a logical argument instead of 43 excuses twisted to make it look like you're right.

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Kensai
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:49 pm

I don't want to sound chauvinist or anything, but in the spirit of the era, wouldn't a treaty such as the Hague Treaty apply only between major (or at least European) nations? I mean, would there be an outcry if say Britain dismantled the infrastructure of Yemen back in the day?
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Vezina
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:54 pm

The Ottomans were always a grey area, which included Egypt. For example, France and Spain took Egypt's side in the Syrian question between OE/Egypt of the late 1830's. So while I would agree that no European power would've cared about places outside of the Mediterranean, it becomes a lot harder when you're talking about the Near East/North Africa.

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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:56 pm

Guys, please stick to the deadline ... if I get this right, the turn was uploaded 30minutes early -_-

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Vezina
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:58 pm

Today started daylight savings time in the US. Bjfagan, Europe doesn't hit it at the same time as us so our (American players') deadlines are an hour later until Europe catches up.

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Kensai
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:14 pm

[s]Early December 1874[/s]

LOL, you got me here as well.
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bjfagan
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:43 pm

Sorry, I did not realize there was a difference. I don't understand why Europe can't follow the USA more closely. :)

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unclejoe
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:45 pm

This is where I will be for a while:

[ATTACH]21933[/ATTACH]
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Lindi
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Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:22 pm

bjfagan I sent you two mail for peace. you can watch? Thank ;)

Just understand I am very small country.

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Sir Garnet
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Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:25 am

Daylight Savings Time is very important to ensure that the children can get home earlier in the afternoon from the schoolhouse to do their chores and help plant, weed, and tend the crops, especially at harvest-time, since once it gets dark kerosene lanterns don't shed much light and in an accident can start a fire. Also, I'm told the horses don't like to work when it gets dark.

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