[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[Soulstrider]

Just to show my current stock in the top and B are different.

[Kensai]

Late January 1874

joe, it has been a pleasure playing with you and reading your Pagoda Inn discussions. Feel free to join us whenever you want with another nation. Btw, guys, Spinoza told me that he might be able to continue with China and since joe came into contact with him already, it could as well be from next turn. I dunno. Please vote on the new feature we will be adding (shipyards for minors).

[De_Spinoza]

Late January 1874
Btw, guys, Spinoza told me that he might be able to continue with China and since joe came into contact with him already, it could as well be from next turn. I dunno. Please vote on the new feature we will be adding (shipyards for minors).

Yes, I do need a re invite for the dropbox though.

[Boernes]

I can keep an eye on it. Most provinces in the West have become national territories already. The ones that haven't are very sparsely populated. I just have a hard time believing that such a disparaging difference in consumption can occur from literacy rates. I want to say the U.S.A. literacy rate is about 70%? Not even terribly high. I will keep an eye on the situation going forward, because it is certainly troubling to me.

I don't have the manual exaclty in my mind, but literacy shouldnt have anything to do with consumption. It is supposed to have effects on population growth, social mobility and militancy



concerning the immigration bonus the US (and other nations) gets per scripts, there are two types of events. One fires late feb. once every year and adds a few points in the population of a list of areas. (not regions, that maybe the thing; one point for a whole area isnt exactly much) The second set of events has a varying chance (from 10% to 50% depending of the region) of firing twice per year

[unclejoe]

DeSpinoza is taking China.
It has been a pleasure playing, likewise......I will be around.......maybe even drop by the Cherry Pagoda Inn from time to time or take a minor. Aloha all!

[Lindi]

I don't see the file EGY for Egypt in folder : 1874-01-16

[coolbean]

I don't see the .hst file.

Sorry to see you go joe t.

[nemethand]

I will be absent for nearly a week - Sir Garnet has kindly undertaken to replace me for Russia.

[coolbean]

The USA received a prestige hit this past turn for not declaring war on Italy.


I have a problem with this because I was going to declare war on Italy two turns ago, but didn't have the declare war option available.


I even went so far as to message Vezina, being France is allied to both the USA and Italy, to give him a heads up on what I was doing and to let Italy know, and then after I loaded the turn, I sent another message cancelling everything because I didn't even have the option to declare war and I figured I must have been mistaken. So, is there a way to get the prestige returned?



EDIT: Whoops. I realized I cut the date out so you can't even tell when this is from. I already closed out of PoN and don't feel like loading it again tonight. If nobody really believes me I'll load an old turn tomorrow.

[Kensai]

We believe you, but it seems you were caught in a situation where you could not declare war naturally (the same as running out of diplomats). It can happen, more often you see it though when you are allied with two friendly nations that go to war one against the other.

[coolbean]

Well I did have enough diplomats. 8 I think. But if the USA took a hit from not declaring war on Italy who just declared war on Austria, only because something was wrong and by the DA with Austria the USA never got a casus belli on Italy, why is the USA being penalized for not doing something when it never had the chance of doing it?

[Soulstrider]

I still would like an answer for the screenshot I posted in the last page.

[Jim-NC]

I still would like an answer for the screenshot I posted in the last page.

Are you paying for research? If so, the B screen doesn't show it, but the top of the main screen will show it. Or it could be colonial options you have played that turn.

[Ech Heftag]

Well I did have enough diplomats. 8 I think. But if the USA took a hit from not declaring war on Italy who just declared war on Austria, only because something was wrong and by the DA with Austria the USA never got a casus belli on Italy, why is the USA being penalized for not doing something when it never had the chance of doing it?

I had the same situation when Spain declared war on France. Since I was still allied to both countries, I got a CB, but was still unable to use it against Spain (got the message, but couldn't declare war in the diplo screen). I believe in our case (US-Italy), the issue was that we still had a peace treaty in effect between our nations, which prevented you from declaring war on me. It's annoying, yeah, but it's plausible from a game mechanics point of view.

[Sir Garnet]

FYI,

Portugal has 13 000 pop points, 87 internal market (would be 108 with medium 50% tariffs. This is the 3 Iberian regions only.

Brazil has around 34 000 pop points with 157 internal market (179 if tariffs were raised from zero to maximum 25%) which has a little more than doubled since I took over in 1863. Population has increased as well from the mid 20s - including substantial immigration.

Each pop point is supposed to be a thousand middle aged or work capable people, so does not count everyone.


Population numbers and urban/rural breakdowns in game would be interesting, but Britain at near 1200 internal home market (probably quite low tariff) sounds generally in line as does the US - " U.S. grew from 110 to 631 (a multiplier of 5.73)" and France "from 441 to 1631 (a multiplier of 3.75)" as a more mature country. From my notes above, tariffs probably don't move the number by more than a third - though commercial techs that affect market penetrations will add up.

[coolbean]

I had the same situation when Spain declared war on France. Since I was still allied to both countries, I got a CB, but was still unable to use it against Spain (got the message, but couldn't declare war in the diplo screen). I believe in our case (US-Italy), the issue was that we still had a peace treaty in effect between our nations, which prevented you from declaring war on me. It's annoying, yeah, but it's plausible from a game mechanics point of view.

Ahhh now that makes sense. Well, I've kind of always thought prestige didn't matter, but now I have an even lower opinion of it.

[coolbean]

FYI,

Portugal has 13 000 pop points, 87 internal market (would be 108 with medium 50% tariffs. This is the 3 Iberian regions only.

Brazil has around 34 000 pop points with 157 internal market (179 if tariffs were raised from zero to maximum 25%) which has a little more than doubled since I took over in 1863. Population has increased as well from the mid 20s - including substantial immigration.

Each pop point is supposed to be a thousand middle aged or work capable people, so does not count everyone.


Population numbers and urban/rural breakdowns in game would be interesting, but Britain at near 1200 internal home market (probably quite low tariff) sounds generally in line as does the US - " U.S. grew from 110 to 631 (a multiplier of 5.73)" and France "from 441 to 1631 (a multiplier of 3.75)" as a more mature country. From my notes above, tariffs probably don't move the number by more than a third - though commercial techs that affect market penetrations will add up.

A couple of questions; for the total pop points did you just scroll over all regions and add them up? Also, how do you see the change in demand with respect to tariffs? Did you change the tariffs then see an immediate change in the F6 screen?

Also, I should have used more professional math earlier. The USA, from 1850 to 1873, has experienced a 7.89% annual growth rate in terms of amount of consumption. France has experienced a 5.95% growth rate over the same period. I guess it is a combination of pop growth techs, consumption techs, and immigration events, which make it different from just straight up population growth.

EDIT: also infrastructure cards would be a factor. I used to play them a lot to bring all of the major US industrial cities up to 100% developement.

[Ojodeaguila]

1. Spanish demand at 0% tariffs is 430.

2. The tariffs affect the demand of the F6 screen.

3. Anyone know the variables of the demand formula?

[Kensai]

Early February 1874
New features and bug fixes for tomorrow, some of you might have received Pocus' email.

Here are two fixes for PON, that should correct the issues reported last month on the costs of ships when built. This can also be helpful for Steve to know what it is about:

1 - Ships will now show the correct elements before being built (and you'll pay the correct cost). Issue is that some units are not upgraded but their models within are obsolete. Now the cost will only use the most recent model.

2 - If a unit has a chain of tech or train upgrade and some models are from various generations, before the code would be lost (the unit was a kind of hybrid)... Now the code will adapt and can seek several generations of units to find the one which is the more appropriate to upgrade to.

[Jim-NC]

I still need prisoner counts from Japan/Ottoman Empire/Egypt to complete the prisoner exchange. We need to do some magic with Germany to determine how many prisoner they have (British/Japanese) to do an exchange.

[Kensai]

Japan will be releasing prisoners slowly to the other nations (natural decay, no return). Guys, I have added the changes sent to me by Philippe and Pocus themselves (including the shipyards and a new executable which fixes the ship issues pointed out by bjfagan). If you are a potential host, you need to have these files before processing the turn.

[Sir Garnet]

A couple of questions; for the total pop points did you just scroll over all regions and add them up? Also, how do you see the change in demand with respect to tariffs? Did you change the tariffs then see an immediate change in the F6 screen?

Used the F6 census list and a calculator except for the lat few dozen BRZ provinces with low pops which are approximated, and just shifted the tariff in the F4 screen.

[Boernes]

The effects of tariffs show up in F4 the second you move the slider, but what exactly changed has to be checked in F6

[Ojodeaguila]

I have a proposal to a more efficient breaking Treaties system.

1. The 8 nations with most prestige must decide what nation break the deal and what nation must lose prestige.

2. The nations involved in the Treaty dissolution will be out of the congress which make the decision and the next nation with more prestige will join the congress.

3. If 4 of the 8 nations with most prestige will not be a congress and the prestige solution will be delayed to a peace congress with the 8 nations with more prestige after the war or a culpability clause in the peace deal.


If someone attack your allied you must not lose prestige for breaking a treaty with the aggressor and this will increase the role-playing of the game and the important of be a nations with high prestige.

[Kensai]

If you mean the above as a help to break deadlocks and make more efficient decisions, it could work but remember that Prestige is a game gauge that can be very serious in the long term and we should make decisions as players, not avatar nations. Thus it should not be at the expense of overcoming the engine's objective decisions. I mean, coolbean might hate how the Prestige penalty worked in the above situation, but in my book (even if gamey) it worked alright. It was as if the USA 43rd Congress did not allow President Grant to re-declare war to Italy in such a short time. So in fact, a player attempt to game the system (by declaring war in one turn and peace in another) was counterbalanced by the fact that diPeace stands for a year after the last war was concluded. So he was not allowed to declare war on time. I had a similar issue as Japan when I ran out of "envoys" (you can find a different abstraction of why exactly it happened) and could not DOW my enemies.

I wish we had in our game a more vocal and efficient "Concert of Europe" which was the equivalent UN back in the days. But I guess we cannot hope for such an instrument as long as the major European powers are at war with each other.

Late February 1874
coolbean, make sure you look at Maine area (group of regions) after this turn as the 100% immigration event fires by this turn for that area. We should see calculate with historical accuracy if that number grows realistically enough. I believe the game is balanced but I wouldn't want to see USA's growth compromised by other factors.

PS. We have a problem. Pocus' updated PON.exe gives errors and stalls the game. Perhaps it is not working properly on an ongoing game. I will have to revert to the previous executable. A little patience please and the new turn will be up.
PPS. OK, some events scripted by us might need some minor fixes as they give errors and mostly silent warnings (meaning they don't work as intended 100%).

[Sir Garnet]

Please advise when those fixes are ready!

[Soulstrider]

How neat, start playing as Belgium and discover that next September I will go study 5 months in a Belgian University. I guess now I really must give it all in this game for my future host country

[Kensai]

Please advise when those fixes are ready!

The Java script was not in "event format". Another script for the return of prisoners had a wrong faction selection commands for KORea. And I think i got another warning as well, do not remember. Not serious stuff, but I will have to rewrite the scripts without errors.

How neat, start playing as Belgium and discover that next September I will go study 5 months in a Belgian University. I guess now I really must give it all in this game for my future host country

Wow, that's amazing, congratulations!
Make the Belgians proud! Personally, I will be in Belgium in two weekends, hopefully visiting Fort Eben Emael (a little bit later than PON's era).

[Ojodeaguila]

1. Spain is losing 1 national moral point each turn, I think that it could be for the carlist war.

2. Does the Carlist war event fixed? Why does the event not happen?

[Kensai]

As far as I know (from the event) you should first meet the conditions, including having a new King for Spain (a 1874 event). So some patience until the new king arrives!