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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:02 am

nemethand wrote:What number does that exactly refer to? Number of goods sold a given fortnight?


Yes, it would be the F6 numbers added up, so what your population demands (in food, consumer, luxury goods total) in one turn.

nemethand wrote:Please, do so. I am educating myself on Russian foreign relations in the second half of the 19th century, some econimic and other additional data is likely to be useful reading, too.


Absolutely. Let me scan them in to the comp and load 'em up. May take some time. I actually have one chart in particular that kind of blew my mind a little bit, and I think you will appreciate, it showed the 'relative power' of Russia and Germany, and they were direct reciprocals. You'll see as one goes up over time, one goes down, then later they flip-flop, and the two curves are almost perfectly inverted.

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Kensai
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:38 am

Early January 1874, happy new year! :)

coolbean, interesting concern. I will have to research this a little bit. However, I do think that there shouldn't be major problems in this if we accept this alternate reality. The reason is simple, the game should set demand according to population in 1850 and then it gets bigger and bigger as time passes according to techs and reproduction levels. I don't think there are "immigrants" events for mainland USA, but certainly your education level, if very high, it saps from your reproduction percentage which should be around 2%. For example, as Japan, I deliberately postponed many education law reforms (primary, secondary, university education) because the higher the education level, the lower the reproductive percentage. So yes, Japan is behind in R&D but has kept is population growth higher than more advanced nations. So it IS after all personal choice what happens according to players' priorities.

Obviously the dynamics of the USA population growth are much more complex and perhaps it cannot be perfectly abstracted. But if memory serves me well, before the First World War USA wasn't a first-tier military or industrial superpower anyway. Or was it?
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unclejoe
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:47 am

Anyone like to take over China?
DeSpinoza was going to....maybe.....but I haven't heard from him.

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:51 am

Kensai wrote:coolbean, interesting concern. I will have to research this a little bit.


I fear it was something that was simply overlooked. Not intentional, and therefore not noticed. I will be posting some charts soon, just for fun, but they may also be worth looking at for this issue as well. To be clear, I'm not asking for an injection of population, though that would be amazing ;) , I'm just trying to raise an issue, for perhaps a PoN 2?? I think it for historical and balancing reasons it should be known that the U.S. is only a fraction of what it was historically, in economic terms, because of this population restriction.

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Kensai
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:57 am

I updated my answer, please take a look. Are you sure you did everything as intended? I mean, joe has been posting messages for population growth for some time now and China's population literacy is notoriously low.
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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:06 am

Kensai wrote:Early January 1874, happy new year! :)

coolbean, interesting concern. I will have to research this a little bit. However, I do think that there shouldn't be major problems in this if we accept this alternate reality. The reason is simple, the game should set demand according to population in 1850 and then it gets bigger and bigger as time passes according to techs and reproduction levels. I don't think there are "immigrants" events for mainland USA, but certainly your education level, if very high, it saps from your reproduction percentage which should be around 2%. For example, as Japan, I deliberately postponed many education law reforms (primary, secondary, university education) because the higher the education level, the lower the reproductive percentage. So yes, Japan is behind in R&D but has kept is population growth higher than more advanced nations. So it IS after all personal choice what happens according to players' priorities.

Obviously the dynamics of the USA population growth are much more complex and perhaps it cannot be perfectly abstracted. But if memory serves me well, before the First World War USA wasn't a first-tier military or industrial superpower anyway. Or was it?


Kensai, I don't think the explanation for having about a third of normal historical population can be explained by our alternate reality. Does this mean that France has low literacy rates to increase its population so fast? Additionally, if there are no immigration events, then I don't know how else to reflect the massive increase in population the USA is supposed to experience in this time period. Then this is simply a massive oversight.

No, the USA was not a massive military power at this time. But that's not what I'm arguing, military power should not be confused with economic power. By this time in history, the USA was fast becoming the preeminant economic power in the world, right behind and in some indices and measures ahead of Britain. It had easily the largest internal market outside of British India. The reason I am raising this issue is because in our game it is 38% of France's internal market.

At the very least it is unhistorical for the USA to have such a small population and market, and for balancing reasons I am letting everybody know of my findings.

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Kensai
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:37 am

Yeah I know what you mean, but my question remains: if we say that France and USA started the game in 1850 balanced, have the US cities/regions not grown enough? If this is the case (the natural 2% of the game not enough) then we might indeed need to find a way to "inject" population in the USA in certain points (say, each decade). Population in game is very important as it is tied to market size, mobilization forces, manpower, etc. So we need to be careful before changing it, but at the same time try to portray the historical increase that for some nations is different.

So yes, perhaps ideally a solution to your problem could be a "colonial action" button that gives immigrants to mainland USA and can be used every now and then by you. But I would like to see what Philippe thinks of that.
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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:49 am

Kensai wrote:Yeah I know what you mean, but my question remains: if we say that France and USA started the game in 1850 balanced, have the US cities/regions not grown enough? If this is the case (the natural 2% of the game not enough) then we might indeed need to find a way to "inject" population in the USA in certain points (say, each decade). Population in game is very important as it is tied to market size, mobilization forces, manpower, etc. So we need to be careful before changing it, but at the same time try to portray the historical increase that for some nations is different.

So yes, perhaps ideally a solution to your problem could be a "colonial action" button that gives immigrants to mainland USA and can be used every now and then by you. But I would like to see what Philippe thinks of that.



Well I don't want to be hasty. I'm not asking for an injection of population. I just want the issue made aware of so everyone knows about it. And thank you for seeing it as well. I am posting some charts as I speak that can help you visualize it. Perhaps the devs can be consulted and see what they think.


EDIT: Oh I'm sorry I didn't even answer your question. I went back to 1850 and the U.S. grew from 110 to 631 (a multiplier of 5.73) and France grew from 441 to 1631 (a multiplier of 3.75). If the same multipliers are extended out to, say, 1896, then the size of the U.S. national market would still only be 3615 to France's 6116.

Let me work that out into an average growth rate though. As of right now, from looking at the F6 screen, I would say the U.S. has an average growth rate around 2.3%. this considering it is a time when the U.S. population should increasing around 28-34% every ten years, or doubling every 30 years. Mostly from immigration from Europe.


From the wikipedia, originally from: Resident Population Data. "Resident Population Data – 2010 Census". 2010.census.gov. Retrieved December 24, 2012.:

1850 23,191,876 +35.9%
1860 31,443,321 +35.6%
1870 38,558,371 +22.6%
1880 49,371,340 +28.0%
1890 62,979,766 +27.6%

These numbers don't tell the full story obviously, because while this was a massive increase in population, it was also an amazing increase when compared to other nations, which were experiencing much more modest increases. Also telling is the sheer growth in urbanization, industrialization, and technology, which shows not only was it pure population increases, but also a smarter and much higher paid population increase as well. This will show in the charts I will post soon hopefully.

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:29 am

FUN CHARTS
[HR][/HR]

FINALLY. This took forever. Enjoy!!!


Code: Select all

1. Populations of the Powers, 1700-1800
Notice the tiny population of the United States, it makes the massive increase in population experienced in the 19th century that much more vivid.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/1Pop1700-1800_zps99a86a54.jpg[/IMG]


2. Per Capita Levels of Industrialization, 1750-1900
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/2LevelofInd1750-1900_zps2275fcbd.jpg[/IMG]


3. Relative Shares of World Manufacturing Output, 1750-1900
These two last charts show a lot concerning the shares of each nation's industrial output.  I think it is important to note sheer size of the U.S. economic output and compare it with the size of the U.S. military, and see why the U.S. economic potential is commonly overlooked.  Which is why I fear the U.S. population and market size was probably overlooked in our game.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/3Manuoutput1750-1900_zps468eab8f.jpg[/IMG]


4. Size of Armies/Navies, 1690/89-1814/1815


5. Crimean War Expenditures
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/5ExpenditureCrimeanWar1850s_zps230c454d.jpg[/IMG]


6. Relative Power of Russia and Germany, 1815-1975
This one is a real eye opener.  You can actually visualize how two neighboring super powers adjust to power vacuums.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/6RelpowerRUSGER1815-1975_zps659f6dcc.jpg[/IMG]


7. Total Population of the Powers, 1890-1938
***Note: Britain only includes the British Isles and immediate possessions, it does NOT include India.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/7Totalpop1890-1938_zpsd3f3e9d1.jpg[/IMG]


8. Urban Population of the Powers, and percentage of the Total Percentage of Population, 1890-1938
Here we are getting into the meat of it.  At the end of the day, population numbers are helpful, but meaningless if they don't tell us what kind of population they were, i.e, farmers, craftsmen, or bankers.  Here we see the total number of people living in cities, and their percentage of total population.  Again, British India is NOT included, so Britain has a disproportionately high percentage living in cities.  Granted, these numbers do not go back to 1874, our time in the game, but the information can be easily pulled off of wikipedia, and will follow the trends shown regardless.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/8Urbanpop1890-1938_zpscf6618e9.jpg[/IMG]


9. Per Capita Levels of Industrialization, 1880-1938
Again, levels of industrialization.  Only the 1880 column is good for our purposes of comparison of course, but I thought everyone would enjoy looking at these.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/9CapitaInd1880-1938_zps4a42e8e3.jpg[/IMG]


10. Iron/Steel Production of the Powers, 1890-1938
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/10Ironsteel1890-1938_zpsd07e23f1.jpg[/IMG]


11. Energy Consumption of the Powers, 1890-1938
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/11Energycons1890-1938_zpse6c40d0a.jpg[/IMG]


12. Industrial Potential of the Powers in relative Perspective, 1880-1938
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/12Indpotential1880-1938_zps1824dd35.jpg[/IMG]


13. Relative shares of World Manufacturing Output, 1880-1938
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/13Manuoutput1880-1938_zps618acc8c.jpg[/IMG]


14. Military Personnel of the Powers, 1816-1880
Notice the tiny U.S. military, and the absolute gigantic Russian military.


15. Military Personnel of the Power, 1880-1914
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/15MilitaryPersonnel1880-1914_zps84b2e187.jpg[/IMG]


16. Warship tonnage, 1880-1914
Notice how Britain and Germany each built well over a million tons of warship (!!!) within 14 years during the Naval race.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/16Warshiptonnage1880-1914_zps156c1bea.jpg[/IMG]


17. National Income, population, per capita income, 1914
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/17NatInc1914_zps0dfa9f5c.jpg[/IMG]


18. Industrial/Technological Comparisons of the 1914 Alliances
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/181914WWI_zps16d36f43.jpg[/IMG]


19. Industrial/Technological Comparisons with the US but without Russia
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/19WWIcomparisonswithUSA_zpsd0e23a09.jpg[/IMG]


20. War Expenditure and Total Mobilized Forces, 1914-1919
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/20DefenseexpendituresofthecombatantsWWI_zps8cd281ac.jpg[/IMG]


21. World Indices of Manufacturing Production, 1913-1925
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/21PostWWIgrowth_zps893b3aa5.jpg[/IMG]


22.Annual Indices of Manufacturing Production
Interesting to note the different effects of the Great Depression on the world economies.
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/22Manuproduction1913-1938_zpsb239e999.jpg[/IMG]


23. Shares of World Manufacturing Output, 1929-1938
Note how the Great Depression adversely effected the U.S.  (thanks FDR)
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/22sharesofworldmanufacturingoutput1929-1938_zpsd82cf7b6.jpg[/IMG]


24. National income of the Powers, and relative war potential, 1937
War potential meaning amount of factories, GDP, and wealth in a country.  Unlike other nations at this time, which were producing at maximum capacity, the U.S. had 40% of its factories vacant from unemployment and depression.  (again, thanks FDR, but this actually turned out to be a good thing to have all of that extra capacity for WWII)
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/23nationalincomeandamountspentonmilitary1937_zps1745bf93.jpg[/IMG]


25. Total GNP and per capita for the Powers, 1950
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/24GNPpluspercapita1950_zps5abdfbfd.jpg[/IMG]


26. Defense expenditures, Cold War.
I like looking at this in reference to big events, like the Cuban Missile Crisis, and Khrushchev's attempts at a 'thaw.'
[IMG]http://i1156.photobucket.com/albums/p568/coolbean14/25Defenseexpenditurescoldwar_zps67d568bc.jpg[/IMG]





All charts from, The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, by Paul Kennedy

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Jim-NC
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:35 am

In my single player game as the US, I was up to 1856, and I got immigration notes every so often. It would tell me that such and such city has received x immigrants. I didn't check to see what it actually did to the population however.

FYI, Britain's total F6 consumption is 1166 currently.

The problem might not be America growing, but that Europe is not losing population. The immigrants came from somewhere, as they went to America. I have not seen anything that subtracts population from Europe for immigrants.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:40 am

I have seen the immigration notifications, like "'x' number of immigrants" have settled in the US this year, but it doesn't tell me where and it doesn't seem to be appreciable. It usually happens at the end of the year, so I will have more information on that and if it effects my market when I load the game for tonight's turn. As far as I can go back, it hasn't changed at all unfortunately :(

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Jim-NC
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:51 am

I have seen 2 notices then. There is the at the end of the year message, but then there also was a message that a particular city received immigrants.

Actually, you can see this in the events folder. The USA has a series of immigrant scripts that increase population. Maybe they have stopped firing, or maybe you have been unlucky. I just saw these. I guess you would need to see a script report after the turn is processed to see if the immigrant scripts worked or not. My guess is that they have stopped working.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:04 am

Just loaded the turn for Early Jan., the U.S. received no immigrants for the year and no overall increase in domestic market :(

I wish I knew more about how the game worked, because I don't know if something is broken or just inaccurate, and I don't know what to do about it.

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Jim-NC
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:12 am

You should see the event on the 4th turn each year (meaning late Feb I believe). Here is a portion of the script for the 1870-1890 time period:

SelectFaction = $USA
SelectRegion = $Washington
StartEvent = evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890|20|1|NULL|NULL|$Washington|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1870/01/01
MaxDate = 1889/12/31
TurnIndex = 4

Actions
GenTextMsg = evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890;1;NULL;NULL;NULL
ChgPopulation = 3;$ethYankee;$relProtestant;$Area_Maine

Then there is this script which can fire twice a year (early Feb, and early Sep):
SelectFaction = $USA
SelectRegion = $New York
StartEvent = evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890_NYC|15|1|NULL|NULL|$New York|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1870/01/01
MaxDate = 1889/12/31
TurnIndex = 3;18

EvalRgnOwned = $New York
Probability = 50

Actions
ChgPopAristos = 1
ChgPopUpper = 2
ChgPopMiddle = 7
ChgPopWorkers = 15
ChgPopPeasants = 15

This 2nd script appears for several cities, and they look like you should get a chance to get a message every turn (in a different city).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:18 am

Ok thanks. I will keep my eye out. I can't remember the last time it went off. I will watch for it and monitor any population increases. Thus far, it doesn't seem to be having any noticeable effect though.

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Vezina
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:28 am

Much thanks for the charts, coolbean. That was a pretty interesting read and somewhat disturbing when Jim posted GB's internal market. It seems that France largely stagnated in population and lagged behind in economy historically, but it has done anything but in our game so far. I'm not saying that to brag at all - I am talking about the growth of things like my national market and potential resources compared to nations that should be bigger and more urbanized. Now, admittedly, I did go to the pop. growth and consumption techs very early, but could they have had this large of an impact on my national market? I don't believe so considering that my national market growth rate is slower than the US, as posted by coolbean.

Considering where the internal market of the US should be compared to Britain and France, that would stop any talk of overabundance. At the very least, the US should be consuming near to Britain's level, which would be another 500 units across the board. Then again, if I'm working on pure conjecture, France's consumption shouldn't dwarf Britain's, either. :) Any other industrialized nations want to throw your f6 numbers up for comparison?

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:28 am

Vezina, I only keep using France as an example because I have all of the numbers for it, thanks to you. I'm not trying to patronize France in any way! :)

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Vezina
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:32 am

coolbean wrote:Vezina, I only keep using France as an example because I have all of the numbers for it, thanks to you. I'm not trying to patronize France in any way! :)


Of course. I am only talking about France because, other than the US which you have already covered, it is the only country that I have experience with as well. No worries. :)

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Kensai
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:20 am

I should have a look on the logs to see if these scripts have been firing in the past. Considering they start firing by 1870, three years from that date is too little to see a real change in pop. Late Februrary 1874 (4th turn) we should notice if there was a population increase in Maine where these immigrants should arrive certainly.

For example for 1873 it fired according to my logs:

Code: Select all

Line 57987:  SelectFaction, selected: United States of America
Line 57989:  Started processing event: evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890
Line 57989:  Event already referenced, current occurences 3 Max allowed: 20   <<Active>>
Line 57992:  Min date evaluated: 1870/01/01 converted to turn  2881 current turn 2957  True
Line 57993:  Max date evaluated: 1889/12/31 converted to turn  3361 current turn 2957 True
Line 57994:  TurnIndex: Testing 4  vs current turn index: 4 True
Line 57996:  Entering triggered actions for event evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890
Line 57997:  GenTextMsg Message Generated: evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890
Line 57998:  ChgPopulation: Acadia new population:  788
Line 57998:  ChgPopulation: Aroostook new population:  394
Line 57998:  ChgPopulation: Southern Maine new population:  304
Line 57999:  ChgPopulation: New Hampshire new population:  856
Line 58000:  ChgPopulation: Eastern Massachusetts new population:  2694
Line 58001:  ChgPopulation: Rhode Island new population:  339
Line 58002:  ChgPopulation: Connecticut new population:  705
Line 58002:  ChgPopulation: Western Massachusetts new population:  383
Line 58002:  ChgPopulation: Vermont new population:  306
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Manhattan new population:  3775
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Adirondacks new population:  845
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Hudson Valley new population:  1176
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Thousand Islands new population:  819
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Leatherstocking new population:  586
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Finger Lakes new population:  1015
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Western New York new population:  802
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Chattaqua new population:  504
Line 58003:  ChgPopulation: Catskills new population:  343
Line 58004:  ChgPopulation: North Jersey new population:  504
Line 58004:  ChgPopulation: South Jersey new population:  493
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Delaware Valley new population:  2503
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Susquehanna Valley new population:  1230
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Allegheny new population:  1298
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Western Pennsylvania new population:  1638
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Northwest Pennsylvania new population:  677
Line 58005:  ChgPopulation: Wyoming Valley new population:  571
Line 58006:  ChgPopulation: Delaware new population:  389
Line 58007:  ChgPopulation: Eastern Maryland new population:  894
Line 58007:  ChgPopulation: District of Columbia new population:  710
Line 58007:  ChgPopulation: Western Maryland new population:  370
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Sandusky new population:  1351
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Maumee new population:  488
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Miami Valley new population:  874
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Central Ohio new population:  1182
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Appalachian Ohio new population:  775
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Hamilton new population:  789
Line 58008:  ChgPopulation: Scioto Valley new population:  663
Line 58009:  ChgPopulation: Southeast Michigan new population:  630
Line 58009:  ChgPopulation: Central Michigan new population:  364
Line 58009:  ChgPopulation: Northern Michigan new population:  163
Line 58009:  ChgPopulation: Western Michigan new population:  160
Line 58009:  ChgPopulation: Upper Peninsula new population:  164
Line 58010:  ChgPopulation: Northeast Indiana new population:  896
Line 58010:  ChgPopulation: Northwest Indiana new population:  662
Line 58010:  ChgPopulation: Central Indiana new population:  988
Line 58010:  ChgPopulation: Southern Indiana new population:  474
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Northern Virginia new population:  167
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Shenandoah Valley new population:  163
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Rappahannock new population:  305
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Central Virginia new population:  858
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Southside new population:  687
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Lynchburg new population:  338
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Tidewater new population:  200
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Blue Ridge new population:  174
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Panhandle new population:  205
Line 58011:  ChgPopulation: Kanawha new population:  188
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Inner Banks new population:  198
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Raleigh new population:  583
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Cherokee new population:  404
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Wilmington new population:  396
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Piedmont new population:  468
Line 58012:  ChgPopulation: Smoky Mountains new population:  271
Line 58013:  ChgPopulation: Low Country new population:  536
Line 58013:  ChgPopulation: Columbia new population:  694
Line 58014:  ChgPopulation: Coastal Georgia new population:  453
Line 58014:  ChgPopulation: Magnolia new population:  659
Line 58014:  ChgPopulation: Northern Georgia new population:  644
Line 58014:  ChgPopulation: Southern Georgia new population:  378
Line 58015:  ChgPopulation: Northeast Florida new population:  69
Line 58015:  ChgPopulation: Everglades new population:  40
Line 58015:  ChgPopulation: Tampa Bay new population:  94
Line 58015:  ChgPopulation: Florida Panhandle new population:  161
Line 58016:  ChgPopulation: Central Alabama new population:  524
Line 58016:  ChgPopulation: South Alabama new population:  366
Line 58016:  ChgPopulation: The Shoals new population:  519
Line 58016:  ChgPopulation: Black Belt new population:  380
Line 58016:  ChgPopulation: North Alabama new population:  275
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Florida Parishes new population:  266
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Pontchartrain new population:  369
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Acadiana new population:  183
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Southwest Louisiana new population:  165
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Northwest Louisiana new population:  176
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: West Louisiana new population:  116
Line 58017:  ChgPopulation: Central Lousiana new population:  54
Line 58018:  ChgPopulation: Mississippi Gulf Coast new population:  394
Line 58018:  ChgPopulation: Pine Belt new population:  359
Line 58018:  ChgPopulation: The Delta new population:  447
Line 58018:  ChgPopulation: Northeast Mississippi new population:  382
Line 58019:  ChgPopulation: West Tennessee new population:  474
Line 58019:  ChgPopulation: Middle Tennessee new population:  772
Line 58019:  ChgPopulation: East Tennessee new population:  473
Line 58019:  ChgPopulation: Cumberland Mountains new population:  425
Line 58019:  ChgPopulation: Donelson new population:  52
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: East Texas new population:  31
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Rio Grande Valley new population:  31
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Hill Country new population:  51
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Brazos Valley new population:  227
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Texas Gulf Coast new population:  61
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: North Texas new population:  111
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Texas Panhandle new population:  46
Line 58020:  ChgPopulation: Big Bend new population:  12
Line 58021:  ChgPopulation: Oklahoma new population:  47
Line 58021:  ChgPopulation: Okmulgee new population:  26
Line 58021:  ChgPopulation: Tahlequah new population:  51
Line 58022:  ChgPopulation: Arkansas Delta new population:  207
Line 58022:  ChgPopulation: Northern Arkansas new population:  131
Line 58022:  ChgPopulation: Ouachita new population:  14
Line 58023:  ChgPopulation: Lexington new population:  234
Line 58023:  ChgPopulation: Louisville new population:  587
Line 58023:  ChgPopulation: Bowling Green new population:  599
Line 58023:  ChgPopulation: Cumberland Plateau new population:  614
Line 58023:  ChgPopulation: Paducah new population:  128
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Southern Illinois new population:  443
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Sangamon new population:  330
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Eastern Illinois new population:  286
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Western Illinois new population:  236
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Northern Illinois new population:  417
Line 58024:  ChgPopulation: Northeast Illinois new population:  1176
Line 58025:  ChgPopulation: Lakeshore new population:  434
Line 58025:  ChgPopulation: Western Uplands new population:  214
Line 58025:  ChgPopulation: Door Peninsula new population:  225
Line 58025:  ChgPopulation: Northern Highlands new population:  79
Line 58026:  ChgPopulation: Southeast Minnesota new population:  129
Line 58026:  ChgPopulation: Shakopee new population:  58
Line 58026:  ChgPopulation: Northwest Minnesota new population:  78
Line 58026:  ChgPopulation: Iron Range new population:  73
Line 58027:  ChgPopulation: The Ozarks new population:  305
Line 58027:  ChgPopulation: Eastern Missouri new population:  736
Line 58027:  ChgPopulation: Mid-Missouri new population:  616
Line 58027:  ChgPopulation: Bootheel new population:  184
Line 58027:  ChgPopulation: Northern Missouri new population:  93
Line 58028:  ChgPopulation: Western Iowa new population:  67
Line 58028:  ChgPopulation: Quad Cities new population:  97
Line 58028:  ChgPopulation: Northeast Iowa new population:  90
Line 58028:  ChgPopulation: Northwest Iowa new population:  86
Line 58029:  ChgPopulation: High Plains new population:  53
Line 58029:  ChgPopulation: Osage Prairie new population:  94
Line 58029:  ChgPopulation: Red Hills new population:  74
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Coastal Range new population:  0
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Sierra Nevada new population:  324
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Golden Gate new population:  629
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Central Coast new population:  118
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Central Valley new population:  108
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: High Sierra new population:  36
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Santa Ana new population:  81
Line 58030:  ChgPopulation: Imperial new population:  31
Line 58031:  ChgPopulation: Inland Northwest new population:  51
Line 58031:  ChgPopulation: Columbia Basin new population:  39
Line 58031:  ChgPopulation: Puget Sound new population:  96
Line 58032:  ChgPopulation: Cascades new population:  112
Line 58032:  ChgPopulation: Columbia Plateau new population:  43
Line 58032:  ChgPopulation: High Desert new population:  46
Line 58034:  Finished processing event: evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890
Line 58034:  ------------------------------


But according to the script population should have increased only to Maine area (group of regions). Understandable as it abstracts Europeans arriving in New England. There were immigration events for the USA and other countries (Argentina, New Zealand, etc) since 1850. Now the question is: are these increases too low to portray the American increase in population over time? This is where we need the insight of the designer of the game (Philippe Thibaut) who should have done these calculations. Note that these events may run for many turns for many cities (50% chance) over the next years. You may experience an insidious increase of pop.

This one ran on Early February 1873 I think:

Code: Select all

Line 58036:  SelectFaction, selected: United States of America
Line 58038:  Started processing event: evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890_NYC
Line 58038:  Event already referenced, current occurences 3 Max allowed: 15   <<Active>>
Line 58041:  Min date evaluated: 1870/01/01 converted to turn  2881 current turn 2956  True
Line 58042:  Max date evaluated: 1889/12/31 converted to turn  3361 current turn 2956 True
Line 58043:  TurnIndex: Testing 3  vs current turn index: 3 True
Line 58045:  EvalRgnOwned: Checking 1594 Manhattan is owned True
Line 58046:  Probability evaluated: Probability 50 rolled 27 True
Line 58048:  Entering triggered actions for event evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890_NYC
Line 58049:  ChgPopAristos: Manhattan new count:  49
Line 58050:  ChgPopUpper: Manhattan new count:  378
Line 58051:  ChgPopMiddle: Manhattan new count:  584
Line 58052:  ChgPopWorkers: Manhattan new count:  1532
Line 58053:  ChgPopPeasants: Manhattan new count:  1228
Line 58055:  Finished processing event: evt_nam_USA_Immigration1870-1890_NYC
Line 58055:  ------------------------------
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Soulstrider
Major
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: Northern Lusitania

Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:12 pm

Can someone clarify me something, the f4 and B buttons say I have 125 gold saved however the indicator on top of the screen says I just have 25, what's the true one?

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Kensai
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:36 pm

The F4 screen shows the potential after all transactions have been done successfully according to current (B) balance. The real one is the one on top.
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Jim-NC
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:10 pm

I should let you know that there were events from 1850-1869, and 1870-1889, and so I assume there are events from 1890-1910 as well (I did not check). Also, each probability is not 50%. They appear to vary from 10-50%, so sometimes nothing happens (like Pittsburgh's increase is only a 15% probability, but New York City's is 50%).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Jim-NC
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Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:14 pm

Is there a way to determine the number of British prisoners Germany has? It doesn't show on his screen, but I am pretty sure it is in the logs/game files somewhere. I tried the count prisoners command in the past, but it didn't work for me (I'll say faulty script logic on my part).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Soulstrider
Major
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 11:22 pm
Location: Northern Lusitania

Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:31 pm

Kensai wrote:The F4 screen shows the potential after all transactions have been done successfully according to current (B) balance. The real one is the one on top.


The potential money is there, but supposedly the initial/current one is also present and it's different from the one in the top.

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Kensai
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Location: Freiburg, Germany

Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Jim-NC wrote:I should let you know that there were events from 1850-1869, and 1870-1889, and so I assume there are events from 1890-1910 as well (I did not check). Also, each probability is not 50%. They appear to vary from 10-50%, so sometimes nothing happens (like Pittsburgh's increase is only a 15% probability, but New York City's is 50%).


There are events, I have seen them. The immigration events for USA are the most numerous and they help a lot to raise population. Historically accurate, but perhaps not too strong. But please bear in mind that the USA players have not helped a lot their situation: as many other players have done in other aspects (overexpansion, overbuilding, etc), USA's prolific research/education reforms have upped literacy of the population and lowered the reproductive percentage in the alternate reality. I presume it pays to be backwards sometimes, as Russia and Japan, as our lower literacy may mean growth percentages of 3+% each turn, even if that means lower R&D. :p

Anyway, I don't think something is seriously wrong unless the numbers do not converge until the 90s...
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Großdeutschland Mod
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coolbean
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Location: USA

Sun Feb 17, 2013 3:53 pm

Jim-NC and Kensai, thanks for the insight. This was the info I was trying to get at. I will definitely monitor the situation and report back. Late Feb 1874 the next one? I will keep my eye out. I will try to keep tabs on numbers and report it here for full transparency.

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unclejoe
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:15 pm

I've taken the China turn for today....... early Jan 1874.... I need to take a break. So, whoever, can take the next turns....etc.
It has been fun. I will be around and maybe back after a while.
aloha,
joe t. out.

Boernes
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:27 pm

@coolbean:
I think a problem with the US internal market is that a large potion is considered 'colonial', which in general consume less

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nemethand
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Location: Budapest

Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:29 pm

unclejoe wrote:I've taken the China turn for today....... early Jan 1874.... I need to take a break. So, whoever, can take the next turns....etc.
It has been fun. I will be around and maybe back after a while.
aloha,
joe t. out.


Joe,
it has been a pleasure to share a game with you. I think all of us will be missing Han and Chan's conversations from the Cherry Pagoda Inn.
Take care and hope to see you back soon.

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coolbean
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Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:52 pm

Boernes wrote:@coolbean:
I think a problem with the US internal market is that a large potion is considered 'colonial', which in general consume less


I can keep an eye on it. Most provinces in the West have become national territories already. The ones that haven't are very sparsely populated. I just have a hard time believing that such a disparaging difference in consumption can occur from literacy rates. I want to say the U.S.A. literacy rate is about 70%? Not even terribly high. I will keep an eye on the situation going forward, because it is certainly troubling to me.

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