[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[Kensai]

Late October 1873

[coolbean]

I don't believe we should be jumping on Soulstrider for not properly justifying his entry into the war. There have been many wars declared in our game over flimsy or absurd justifications. Indeed the example just given by Kensai of Egypt, is just one of them. I would even say Austria has done it twice by throwing out over 15 years of game history, where Prussia and Austria had very close relations and military cooperation, just so we can have a fun war. The sword cuts both ways, so we have to live with these flimsy justifications for war.

I think what people are trying to say is that while Egypt has a permanent reason to dislike anyone who occupies the Sudan, as well as the Austro-German ongoing dislike and distrust being very historic, the problem comes with the justification when there is no historical precedent or reasonable alternate reality excuse (other than, well Germany promised me territory if I help him and he wins). When one player is proven to be lying, then comes up with an entirely unreasonable excuse after the fact, I expect there would be frustration from the victims of such actions. At least soulstrider came out and said it:

Let's just say I have a deal with Germany and I have much to win in case of victory, however for RP reasons it doesn't make much sense revealing it.

To bring my point another way, the U.S.A. was blasted for forging a CB on the Netherlands after they schemed and connived an invasion of Korea. For coming to the diplomatic defense of the victim, China, and trying to force an agreement out of the Netherlands that would force them to promise to not do anything like that again, the U.S.A. was accused of being imperialistic.

Allow me to bring up one last thing: nobody has commented or talked about the revealed communication between Ojo (as Spain) and myself (as USA). Anyone, if you were playing Columbia or Venezuela, would you think this was a good casus belli (bold is mine):

Colonial Plan for America

1. Cuba and the Philippines are the only reason to have division between us if I can take new colonies I can give it to you and we can be allies. I cant sell you my colonies because I only have this colonies.

2. But if you help me to invade Venezuela and Colombia I will not have any problem in give you Cuba and the Philippines in exchange of your help in my invasion of new colonies, the european powers are busy at the moment and we can make this invasion easily. If someone tell that it is unhistorical I have 2 good examples for them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominican_Restoration_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mexican_Empire

3. If you are interested I will send you a more detailed proposal. Today we have a big problem for a long term friendship if we do that I probably become your best friend.

If this is acceptable behavior, then I don't think I want to be a part of this game anymore. Keep in mind, this message was sent to me a day before Spain declared war on France.

Allow me to ask this: If I as the U.S.A. forged a CB on Mexico, because I wanted to have Veracruz, and I cited this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_occupation_of_Veracruz, is that acceptable behavior?

Or if I forged a CB on Nicarauga and cited this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Nicaragua, is that acceptable? (I could go on forever, the U.S.A. occupied almost every latin American country... speaking of which, there is a reason why Latin-American players flood MLB teams, American soldiers taught the locals how to play baseball!! Maybe that should be my excuse for forging a CB!!!)

I would hope none of these situations would be acceptable in our game. I hope that people would complain about it.

[Ojodeaguila]

1. USA in Madeira dislike me and I continue playing.

2. In fact I don't see anything strange that any great power attack Colombia to take Panama.

3. Why only the great powers can be expansionist?

4. Spain invading Colombia or Venezuela are more justified than USA invading California, Cuba or Philippines.

5. Why you don't tell anything when Russia annex Bulgaria?, it is not much 'historical'

[coolbean]

The USA bought Madeira from Portugal. To my knowledge, Russia bought Bulgaria as well. It is the Ottoman's right to give away what they want, and Russia's right to buy anything they want. I don't remember the USA invading California in this game. If Spain was invading Columbia or Venezuela on the grounds you proposed, the USA would stop them, not help them. I would hope there would be outrage in other countries as well, especially liberal Republics...


EDIT: I should clarify, I should hope players would be outraged, at the terrible logic and justification, and character-nations be outraged, especially liberal Republics, at the unjustified invasion of independent Republics.

[Ojodeaguila]

Sorry Jim-NC but now I control Spain and don't want to be allied of France, you can't control Spain anymore like I can't control Belgium anymore plz play your game with your new nation.

If France DOW Germany without secure his back is his problem not yours.

[Ojodeaguila]

The USA bought Madeira from Portugal. To my knowledge, Russia bought Bulgaria as well. It is the Ottoman's right to give away what they want, and Russia's right to buy anything they want. I don't remember the USA invading California in this game. If Spain was invading Columbia or Venezuela on the grounds you proposed, the USA would stop them, not help them. I would hope there would be outrage in other countries as well, especially liberal Republics...

Ok, then anyone can buy anything but if someone try to do it with the force it a bad player and must be denounced as a non fair player?

I think that the things in the XIX century are different.

[coolbean]

Ok, then anyone can buy anything but if someone try to do it with the force it a bad player and must be denounced as a non fair player?

No.

The justification should be scrutinized, and if it is lacking, then denounced.

[Ojodeaguila]

1. To attack a sudamerican republic Spain has a really good Justification do not recognaise his independence.

2. If you want to protect them you are free to do it but please don't try to draw me like the bad in this history.

[Ojodeaguila]

And plz for coldbean and Vezina do not cut part of my post or the dates denotes a big lack of education or an attempt of manipulation.

[coolbean]

1. To attack a sudamerican republic Spain has a really good Justification do not recognaise his independence.

2. If you want to protect them you are free to do it but please don't try to draw me like the bad in this history.

Colombia's independence was recognized by Spain on 7 August 1819. Venezuela's independence was recognized by Spain on 30 March 1845 (although it declared independence in 1811 as part of Gran Colombia I believe, Sir Garnet would know more about this).

Your justification was not that Spain doesn't recognize their independence. Your justification for invading and annexing the two sovereign nations of Venezuela and Colombia, in your own words, was the Second Mexican Empire (??) and the Dominican Restoration of the Monarchy (?????).

You may not care if you are running Spain into the ground because you've played it for all of 32 minutes and will most likely leave in a week, but it matters to other players.



EDIT: Whoops I said restoration of the monarchy, I meant restoration of the republic. BTW, this already happened in our game, I believe Jim-NC reported NM shifts during this.

[Ojodeaguila]

No.

The justification should be scrutinized, and if it is lacking, then denounced.

Do you think that Germnay have a Justification when invade Poland, Russia when invade Finland, France with Madagascar, USA in Puerto Rico, GB in India, Japan in Korea?

Only a few war are really justified in he history, if we can only fight this war we can go back to home now and stop playing.

[Ojodeaguila]

Only USA talk about leave, if you have problems with me DOW but plz don't try to kick me from the game after a week of war because you are losing.

[coolbean]

Do you think that Germnay have a Justification when invade Poland, Russia when invade Finland, France with Madagascar, USA in Puerto Rico, GB in India, Japan in Korea?

Only a few war are really justified in he history, if we can only fight this war we can go back to home now and stop playing.

Without addressing the examples you've given, I am going to say you're right. Let's stop trying to justify anything guys. NOW. STOP. Don't justify anything from now on. Let's just have fun. But at least you finally admit that you never mean to justify any action.

All I have to say is watch out Mexico! The USA is coming! And watch out Brits! Canada is going to be a state!*


*I'm being sarcastic.

[coolbean]

Only USA talk about leave, if you have problems with me DOW but plz don't try to kick me from the game after a week of war because you are losing.

I am not trying to kick you from the game. I am saying that if this is the new normal, then I will have better things to do with my time then play a baby-town-frolics PBEM.

BTW, it is not the problem with your DoW on France, although I have my own problems with the way you handled the situation, I can't say anything is necessarily wrong, my concern is more over your intention to invade South America on no justification, and a lack of concern over it.

[Ojodeaguila]

I am not trying to kick you from the game. I am saying that if this is the new normal, then I will have better things to do with my time then play a baby-town-frolics PBEM.

BTW, it is not the problem with your DoW on France, my concern is more over your intention to invade South America on no justification.

I DOW France to help my allied Germany like you Dow me to help France I must me mad.

[coolbean]

Then you clearly didn't even read what I just wrote, because that's the opposite of what I just said, and you even quoted it.

I'm done.

[Ojodeaguila]

Then you clearly didn't even read what I just wrote, because that's the opposite of what I just said, and you even quoted it.

I'm done.

This is the real reason because any European nation invade any American republic:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

And only France attack Mexico during the USA civil war and USA send massive war supplies to mexico.

USA can grant the independence of all the American republic if he want.

Please don't try to make rules to do your job in America.

[coolbean]

Yup, you found me out. You caught the tater.

[captnhowdy320]

You caught the tater.

Are you... Ron... "Tater Salad" White?

[Jim-NC]

Sorry Jim-NC but now I control Spain and don't want to be allied of France, you can't control Spain anymore like I can't control Belgium anymore plz play your game with your new nation.

If France DOW Germany without secure his back is his problem not yours.

I am not sure where this came from. Is this in regards to Britain's ultimatum? If so, I am playing the British Government's position, and you are of course free to reject/agree to/ or negotiate over this position.

In regards to Puerto Rico in our game, a former administration of Spain sold the island to the Americans.

[coolbean]

Are you... Ron... "Tater Salad" White?

Yuuuuuuuppp. Howdy knows what I'm talking about.

[Jim-NC]

Here is the payment terms as part of the peace deal between Britain and the Ottoman Empire. This will hurt the Ottoman's diplomatic corps.

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Anglia
StartEvent = 1873 Payment with Peace Between Britain and Ottoman Empire|2|1|NULL|NULL|$Anglia|NULL
Conditions
TurnIndex = 0;6;12;18;24
Actions

SelectFaction = $GBR
SelectRegion = $Anglia
ChangeResStock = $merMoney;-1500
ChangeResStock = $merDiplomat;-1

SelectFaction = $TUR
SelectRegion = $Constantinople
ChangeResStock = $merCapital;1000
ChangeResStock = $merDiplomat;-1
ChangePriceInc = 4
EndEvent

If this could be run next turn.

[Lindi]

for Egypt war against Prussia I try explaint with my bad english, so when I begin the last player said for me, watch Prussia, he go to war against you in the near futur for Sudan. So in the begin I try to see the situation and with that conseil and after write mail to Ottoman I begin a talk with the France, see the action of delaguetion of Egypt in the game for Stat Visite. and is also the Ottoman said me, yes is good idea find ally with the France. So me when France go to war, I talk with that and go to war also....

It's only, hide work, but I can't show that to the world and really not to Prussia, because I am in war with Ottoman against British, Ottoman said me need Prussia ally so ok, for me I am never ally with Prussia, and I show in the end of war, bad attitude against Prussia. So for me this war is really not a 1 turn action is really all turn action, but I never think a war so fast, I think other thing but not that. (other think need always secret)

PS : with the war for USA it's the World War I ?????

Edit : When I go to war only the situation is : Prussia against Austria and France, so for Egypt who need Sudan and sure with the read mail of last player of Egypt, yes I go war me too.

[Sir Garnet]

SPAIN IN THE AMERICAS

The Kingdom of Spain did take an interest in former colonial regions. I don't know much about the turbulent history of Hispaniola (Haiti and the Dominican Republic). Spain was in, then out.

In the historical timeline, Spain's half-hearted military attempt to recover territory in South America was against Peru (whose independence had not been recognized) from 1864-66, commencing with Spanish seizure of some offshore islands as a result of mistreatment of immigrants from Spain, negotiations, and then declaration of war by a new Peruvian government allied with its neighbors. It is notable for Spanish naval bombardments in 1866 convincing the Chileans to modernize their navy. The USA mediated a peace signed in 1871 (note that the USA was in no position to enforce the Monroe Doctrine at the time, relying on an understanding with Britain as leverage).

The German Empire did not push for influence in Latin America until near the turn of the century.

[bjfagan]

EDIT: I should clarify, I should hope players would be outraged, at the terrible logic and justification, and character-nations be outraged, especially liberal Republics, at the unjustified invasion of independent Republics.

I was shocked when I read this. Coming to the aid of another country under attack is not an unjustified invasion. Are you forgetting your own in-game American history? I believe you have done this several times.

The USA has been involved in several wars that were highly unlikely for a President Lincoln or a Congress to get involved in. Even paying for two armies to sit in France would be unbelievable and impossible to get the public's support in an 1860's American Republic. Especially right after a civil war. However, you did it anyways.

I said something about it, but was forced to live with it. Now you are basically using my old complaint against Spain. You cannot have it both ways.

[Vezina]

Coming to the aid of another country that you have no defensive treaty with is an unjustified invasion, hence why he had to forge a CB and explain it. His explanation was half-hearted at that.

You yourself set up the Americans to be an international force. I haven't forgot the crisis over the Dutch East Indies involving you as the US. A US that has basically finished settling by this point would have looked elsewhere like the Americans did at the turn of the 20th century.

[bjfagan]

I don't recall a war with the Dutch though. Maybe some saber rattling, but not a war.

[Vezina]

The only reason the war didn't happen was because the Dutch basically only tried once to Forge a CB, and you took Prussia shortly after. Would 1850's America be okay with colonizing the East Indies? Really doubtful historically, but since you were basically done settling the west at that point, there was nothing else to really do. Point being, the US was playing internationally before coolbean took over.

[lukasberger]

Here is the payment terms as part of the peace deal between Britain and the Ottoman Empire. This will hurt the Ottoman's diplomatic corps.



If this could be run next turn.

We don't have any dips and aren't generating any either. So sadly, it can't be run as written. I posted something about this before. The OE barely gets any dips to start with and now has a dip rating of 2. But literally no new dips in over a year just isn't right. We should script me a couple dips, at least.

Also really think the OE should have a mobilization event. I know the devs didn't add one, but since we've added them to every other playable nation, even to countries like Colombia and Egypt who both had smaller, weaker and worse organized armies than the OE, I really think it only fair that the OE get one. I'll have to get off my lazy butt and post some votes on this stuff and some of my treaty terms with Russia in the next few days.

[Kensai]

I don't have a problem with unhistorical wars anymore, even when they come from minor nations (in game terms), HOWEVER in order to keep the historical or demi-historical feeling of the game I seriously think we should not allow extended claims unless they are colonial areas, colonial areas possibly wrongly changed to national in v1.03c, and obviously claimed areas.

So even if republican Spain does the crazy thing to attack Venezuela and Colombia, it won't matter much as the game won't allow them to annex them. I think this is the correct approach, game-wise and abstracts 19th century politics which annexation without claim was becoming a rather rare phenomenon. Of course there can be exceptions, but they should be discussed. I am more worried about scripted events not firing to be honest.

Regarding Russia in Bulgaria, I was against that change because of the screwing of the underlying future scripted events, but this is not necessarily a problem. If Russia does not depart (or allow Bulgaria to form) by the time the Balkans erupt, we should adapt the script so the Bulgarians rise against the Russians (instead of the Ottomans who are now gone). Russia helped Bulgaria form, but did not "annex" Bulgaria as it happens in our game. This would have meant that the Bulgarian strife continued against the new oppressors.