I am under the immpression that legions can obsorb replacements to make up for losses.If so this is ahistorical.
A legion was manned by a recruitment of the entire force,for 16 later 20 years and fought with this force until the ennlistment period ended no matter how ground down it was.
Then a new 16 or 20 year enlistment was commenced and the prior enlistment either retired or reenlisted for another term.
The 3rd Gallatica had only 5 cohorts and attached cavalry and aux.units when it left judea for the danube in 68ad.
So a legion fought till it was destroyed or the soldiers term limits were up.
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barkmann44
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barkmann44 wrote:I am under the immpression that legions can obsorb replacements to make up for losses.If so this is ahistorical.
A legion was manned by a recruitment of the entire force,for 16 later 20 years and fought with this force until the ennlistment period ended no matter how ground down it was.
Then a new 16 or 20 year enlistment was commenced and the prior enlistment either retired or reenlisted for another term.
The 3rd Gallatica had only 5 cohorts and attached cavalry and aux.units when it left judea for the danube in 68ad.
So a legion fought till it was destroyed or the soldiers term limits were up.
I remember there was a hot discussion on the beta forum on the issue. I am no historian, so I did not participate, but it was decided to keep the current system because they could find instances were "replacements" were sent to a legion (and not only by merging) - so your case was not systematic, and also for gameplay purpose in any case.
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Narwhal wrote:I remember there was a hot discussion on the beta forum on the issue. I am no historian, so I did not participate, but it was decided to keep the current system because they could find instances were "replacements" were sent to a legion (and not only by merging) - so your case was not systematic, and also for gameplay purpose in any case.
yes Sir, we had it already here in the public forum.
from regular adding new cohorts, or of ad hoc new cohorts without giving this replacements citizenship and even ending up with just sending in a new legion / merging remnants you simply find everything, depending on time, and author who´s quoted.
system is a-historical fast, but thats a question of the engine and options you use
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
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barkmann44
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examples please,my example of the 3rd gallica shows that they were at half strength when they marched to Moesia after having fought in the jewish revolt and when their 20 year enlistment was up in 80 AD they had been on garrison duty in syria for the last decade still at half strength.
A new 20 year enlistment of syrians brought them up to full strength for the first time since before the jewish revolt after the prior enlistee's retired.
I don't understand your statement of sending a vexillation to the emperor as being a form of replacment.
As far as I can determine legions were recruited as a whole unit,there were no "repo-depots"back then.
I can understand that it is a game but not being able to bring your legions back up to strength in the space of 2 years as in the four emperors scen.would make you hesitate to throw them into battle without regard for your after battle strength returns and future employment.
A new 20 year enlistment of syrians brought them up to full strength for the first time since before the jewish revolt after the prior enlistee's retired.
I don't understand your statement of sending a vexillation to the emperor as being a form of replacment.
As far as I can determine legions were recruited as a whole unit,there were no "repo-depots"back then.
I can understand that it is a game but not being able to bring your legions back up to strength in the space of 2 years as in the four emperors scen.would make you hesitate to throw them into battle without regard for your after battle strength returns and future employment.
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barkmann44 wrote:examples please,my example of the 3rd gallica shows that they were at half strength when they marched to Moesia after having fought in the jewish revolt and when their 20 year enlistment was up in 80 AD they had been on garrison duty in syria for the last decade still at half strength.
A new 20 year enlistment of syrians brought them up to full strength for the first time since before the jewish revolt after the prior enlistee's retired.
I don't understand your statement of sending a vexillation to the emperor as being a form of replacment.
As far as I can determine legions were recruited as a whole unit,there were no "repo-depots"back then.
I can understand that it is a game but not being able to bring your legions back up to strength in the space of 2 years as in the four emperors scen.would make you hesitate to throw them into battle without regard for your after battle strength returns and future employment.
As said, the way they dealt with differs over time. so your example is not the measure, but a historical problem. i have given multiple examples in different places about legions which were far below 2000 men, so either the replacements were not enough, or the system was not covering actual losses during i.e. Caesars wars.
i am out of office for the next 13 hours, i hope someone can find the old discussion or examples discussed. google should do the job either
for the second part of the question, no i wouldnt hesitate, unless its a highly trained legions with few elements left.
building new legions in the scenarios with more than 30 turns is more important than replacing ENTIRE LOST elements, its also cheaper (time/cost relation) and faster.
such weakened legions can cover the objectives, while the weakened enemy (he will have lost many elements either) is forced to give more and more way.
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
response
barkmann44 wrote:examples please,my example of the 3rd gallica shows that they were at half strength when they marched to Moesia after having fought in the jewish revolt and when their 20 year enlistment was up in 80 AD they had been on garrison duty in syria for the last decade still at half strength.
A new 20 year enlistment of syrians brought them up to full strength for the first time since before the jewish revolt after the prior enlistee's retired.
I don't understand your statement of sending a vexillation to the emperor as being a form of replacment.
As far as I can determine legions were recruited as a whole unit,there were no "repo-depots"back then.
I can understand that it is a game but not being able to bring your legions back up to strength in the space of 2 years as in the four emperors scen.would make you hesitate to throw them into battle without regard for your after battle strength returns and future employment.
The 3rd Gallica, IIRC, sent a vexillation, which is part of the legions strength, to Moesia. The rest of the legion stayed in the east. This was common practice in the civil wars. Late in Nero's era the Roman system started falling apart and i would be unsurprised to learn replacements were low or non existent.
I have books talking about legions recruited in Italy sending centurions home on leave and while there picking up a new batch of recruits, giving them a bit of training and then marching them to the front. III Gallica was raised among Romano-Celts In Cisalpine Gaul and never received replacements from that source. They replaced their men with local Syrians. More than a cohort was still on Cyprus in 69CE, and the rest of the legion was in Armenia/Osrhoene.
I know that Italian legions recruited from established tribal units, so i am unsure why long term Roman citizens in Cisalpine Gaul would not have followed the same system.
Mike
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a.) for the Limes troops we know for sure that Romans were phased out and replaced by local Numeri.
b.) Romans military diploma
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryDiploma-3a.html
the bronze plate which is kind of contract. we find northern names for troops serving in Spain and Africa on this "documents", giving the soldier official leave from the service as legionares. other nations are known, too many and from times which few relocations of whole legions, than it could be coincidence. supposing large distance between recruiting and place of service
c.)
for the time -250/-100 a long period the original 2 legions of Rome were extended to 4 and we talk about 18.000 - 20.000 men with, as far the historians can figure it out, few fluctuations. if the legions were lost (2nd Punic war for instance) they [color="#FFFF00"]levied complete new legions instead[/color], you find sources of not yet levied legions of somewhat over 4.000 men when Hannibal was on a stroll in the park
Delbrück calculates a amount of potential recruits of 10-15.000 a year, drafting only 1.000 - 2.000 yearly as replacements. service term 16 to 20+ years
d.)
like the Usipetes i.e. had to deploy a whole COHORT on the order of Emp. Domitian, Roman-Chattian War
Eadem aestate cohors Usiporum per Germanias conscripta
Aurelian levied:
ala VIII Vandilorum
ala I Quadorum
ala I Francorum
cohors IX Alamanorum
cohors XI Chamavorum
cohors VII Francorum
many of this men were integrated in legions partially while the original troops were eventually filled with local replacements. as later in the empire, as more frequent the AUX were merged with legions cohorts.
*****
and so on.
additionally many LEGIONS troops were replaced by allieds, while the legions refilled legions, as he said, by sending detachments to create forces elsewhere
****************
also for AUX
i.e. Cohors II Gallorum veterana equitata existed for far over 200 years, the son of an AUX member became citizen (earliest situation)
non concluding list of AUX with durations often far longer than service term
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_auxiliary_regiments
see:
According to Holder, during the Julio-Claudian era (14-68), a regiment's ethnic identity was preserved to some extent, with evidence of continued recruitment from the original people. By the time of Hadrian, however, a regiment's name, in most cases, probably represented the ethnic origin of few, if any, of its members. This is because in the Flavian era (69-96), as a matter of deliberate policy, most regiments were deployed in provinces far from their original home and drew the majority of their recruits from local natives and the rest from all parts of the empire. In most cases, therefore, a regiment's name had become an identification tag devoid of ethnic significance. A regiment deployed long-term in the same province would thus, over time, acquire the ethnic character of its host population.
There are exceptions to this rule:
A minority of regiments remained stationed in their original home province, e.g., cohors I Delmatarum mill eq, still attested in Dalmatia in 130.
Regiments founded a relatively short period before 130, e.g., the cohors I Aelia Dacorum stationed in Britain in 130 would probably still have contained mostly Dacian recruits at this time, as it had been established by Hadrian only about a decade earlier.
Some specialised regiments (e.g., Syrian archers) and the elite Batavi show some evidence of continued preferential recruitment from their original province.
Holder, Paul: Auxiliary Deployment in the Reign of Hadrian (2003)
Spaul, John: COHORS 2 (2000)
Spaul, John: ALA (1994)
*********************
you find even evidence that legions cohorts coming from ad hoc assemblies of men or recruited during winter quarters / in local castrums were NOT granted citizenship under some emperors
**************************
PS:
sorry i dont have the time at the moment to fit it in a conclusive text.
if i am messing up legion/AUX names, it comes from not checked copy and paste from different databases, not having my original sources at hand
b.) Romans military diploma
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryDiploma-3a.html
the bronze plate which is kind of contract. we find northern names for troops serving in Spain and Africa on this "documents", giving the soldier official leave from the service as legionares. other nations are known, too many and from times which few relocations of whole legions, than it could be coincidence. supposing large distance between recruiting and place of service
c.)
for the time -250/-100 a long period the original 2 legions of Rome were extended to 4 and we talk about 18.000 - 20.000 men with, as far the historians can figure it out, few fluctuations. if the legions were lost (2nd Punic war for instance) they [color="#FFFF00"]levied complete new legions instead[/color], you find sources of not yet levied legions of somewhat over 4.000 men when Hannibal was on a stroll in the park
Delbrück calculates a amount of potential recruits of 10-15.000 a year, drafting only 1.000 - 2.000 yearly as replacements. service term 16 to 20+ years
d.)
like the Usipetes i.e. had to deploy a whole COHORT on the order of Emp. Domitian, Roman-Chattian War
Eadem aestate cohors Usiporum per Germanias conscripta
Aurelian levied:
ala VIII Vandilorum
ala I Quadorum
ala I Francorum
cohors IX Alamanorum
cohors XI Chamavorum
cohors VII Francorum
many of this men were integrated in legions partially while the original troops were eventually filled with local replacements. as later in the empire, as more frequent the AUX were merged with legions cohorts.
*****
and so on.
additionally many LEGIONS troops were replaced by allieds, while the legions refilled legions, as he said, by sending detachments to create forces elsewhere
****************
also for AUX
i.e. Cohors II Gallorum veterana equitata existed for far over 200 years, the son of an AUX member became citizen (earliest situation)
non concluding list of AUX with durations often far longer than service term
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_auxiliary_regiments
see:
According to Holder, during the Julio-Claudian era (14-68), a regiment's ethnic identity was preserved to some extent, with evidence of continued recruitment from the original people. By the time of Hadrian, however, a regiment's name, in most cases, probably represented the ethnic origin of few, if any, of its members. This is because in the Flavian era (69-96), as a matter of deliberate policy, most regiments were deployed in provinces far from their original home and drew the majority of their recruits from local natives and the rest from all parts of the empire. In most cases, therefore, a regiment's name had become an identification tag devoid of ethnic significance. A regiment deployed long-term in the same province would thus, over time, acquire the ethnic character of its host population.
There are exceptions to this rule:
A minority of regiments remained stationed in their original home province, e.g., cohors I Delmatarum mill eq, still attested in Dalmatia in 130.
Regiments founded a relatively short period before 130, e.g., the cohors I Aelia Dacorum stationed in Britain in 130 would probably still have contained mostly Dacian recruits at this time, as it had been established by Hadrian only about a decade earlier.
Some specialised regiments (e.g., Syrian archers) and the elite Batavi show some evidence of continued preferential recruitment from their original province.
Holder, Paul: Auxiliary Deployment in the Reign of Hadrian (2003)
Spaul, John: COHORS 2 (2000)
Spaul, John: ALA (1994)
*********************
you find even evidence that legions cohorts coming from ad hoc assemblies of men or recruited during winter quarters / in local castrums were NOT granted citizenship under some emperors
**************************
PS:
sorry i dont have the time at the moment to fit it in a conclusive text.
if i am messing up legion/AUX names, it comes from not checked copy and paste from different databases, not having my original sources at hand
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
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yellow ribbon
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the situation that legions were destroyed and simply whole legions raised again, happened later, during the phase of the empire agai, but was not consequent, i.e.:
A.D. by
raised 83 Domitian Minervia
lost 87 [Domitian] Alaudae
lost 92 [Domitian] Rapax
raised 102 Trajan Trajana
raised 102 Trajan Ulpia Victrix
lost in Judea 132 [Hadrian] Hispania
lost 135 [Hadrian] Deiotariana
raised 165 Marcus Aurelius Pia Italica
raised 165 Marcus Aurelius Concors Italica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
A.D. by
raised 83 Domitian Minervia
lost 87 [Domitian] Alaudae
lost 92 [Domitian] Rapax
raised 102 Trajan Trajana
raised 102 Trajan Ulpia Victrix
lost in Judea 132 [Hadrian] Hispania
lost 135 [Hadrian] Deiotariana
raised 165 Marcus Aurelius Pia Italica
raised 165 Marcus Aurelius Concors Italica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
raised 197 Septimus Severus Parthica
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
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yellow ribbon
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- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:42 pm
a third factor comes in with the Notitia Dignitatem, after the 3rd century, there is strong evidence that they behaved like modern armies. to increase the confidence in the armies body, they used non-legionaries and garrison troops and suddenly started to list them as field army troops
the Limitanei gave the main body of restructering the western armies/renewing them. but they included anything at hand
legiones
cohortes
alae
auxilia
equites
limites
milites
gentes
numeri
cunei
additonally they differed to refill armies:
Comitatenses
but for me, that point was never quite clear what role they had. however, some author tell you that
legiones comitatenses,
auxilia comitatensia
legiones pseudocomitatenses
could have been another source of replacements, over 100.000 men to some extend of the late empires. of course while at the same time the number of men INSIDE OF A LEGION was reduced again and again
the Limitanei gave the main body of restructering the western armies/renewing them. but they included anything at hand
legiones
cohortes
alae
auxilia
equites
limites
milites
gentes
numeri
cunei
additonally they differed to refill armies:
Comitatenses
but for me, that point was never quite clear what role they had. however, some author tell you that
legiones comitatenses,
auxilia comitatensia
legiones pseudocomitatenses
could have been another source of replacements, over 100.000 men to some extend of the late empires. of course while at the same time the number of men INSIDE OF A LEGION was reduced again and again
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
however, prone to throw them into disarray.
PS:
‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘
Clausewitz
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