PON has ruled Victoria 2 for me

[vaalen]

I decided to take a break from PON and give Victoria 2, A house Divided, a try. I tried several different starts, but kept loosing interest. I finally realized the problem was PON.

As a colonial power, I just could not fathom that all you did to colonize an area was to place a national focus there, and send some troops. That was it. I missed the rich colonial system of PON, where you have so many decisions to make, they make sense, and there are so many ways to use them, in combination with military power. I missed the deadly and elusive native forces, which gave me so much trouble in PON. I missed the impressive maps, which invoked the feeling of the hot Sahara, the dense Burmese jungle, the forbidding mountains of Afghanistan. The Victoria map evoked nothing.

The military system of Victoria 2 is so dull and abstract, compared to PON. The troops are blah, devoid of color, and the battles make no sense. I had 50,000 Prussians spent well over a month battling 15, 000 Danes, and needing reinforcements because the Danes kept getting good dice rolls. I missed the huge number of troop types, and the far more detailed combat and movement of PON, not to mention the PON leaders, who have so many more characteristics and depth to them. Supply did not even seem to matter in Victoria 2, any more than the weather did, and both these factors are huge in PON. I missed the detailed and overwhelming effects of the terrain. I missed the menace and danger of the ocean, which seems so tame in Victoria 2.

I could not get past the abstract nature of the economic system.

On the other hand, I really liked the diplomatic system of Victoria 2, which had no many different ways to do things, and the way the sphere of influence worked, along with the diplomatic fighting. This is more detailed and understandable than PON.

Now, do not get me wrong. Victoria 2 is a great game, enjoyed by many, and well worth having. But for me, I cannot stay interested in it after PON, even though PON still needs a lot of polishing.

So I say to Phillipe and Phillipe, please do what you can to improve and polish PON. I know you are very busy, and I appreciate every second you spend on it. but the game deserves to be improved.. It has ruined me for all other games on this period. If you add some event chains, so it is possible for the player to create Italy or Germany, and know what needs to be done to do it, and clear up a few more things, this great game will be that much closer to what it should be, the equal of your magnificent game on the Civil War.

[ERISS]

Nice congratulations
I loved Vic1 and played it for long, not for it's military, but political and social features.
(about military I love HoI2 and played it for long too; I bought HoI3 but I didn't play for now, I bought PoN and Vic2, but didn't play them for now too)

[vaalen]

I also loved Vic 1 and played it for a very long time, for reasons similar to yours. And I also loved the military aspects of HOI2, but could never get into HOI3.

[Pocus]

That's a very nice message Vaalen! We too hope that we will get some official time one day to do some significant work on PON. In the meantime we put out (slowly admittedly) qui fixes, we are currently in QF version d.

If you think there are majors problems with the German or Italian unifications, then perhaps you can reach the people who are doing a PBEM of PON 'Conflict in Europe'. They must have found a solution for the problem, if problem there is. Then, we can check their solution and see if it can be put in a quickfix.

[vaalen]

That's a very nice message Vaalen! We too hope that we will get some official time one day to do some significant work on PON. In the meantime we put out (slowly admittedly) qui fixes, we are currently in QF version d.

If you think there are majors problems with the German or Italian unifications, then perhaps you can reach the people who are doing a PBEM of PON 'Conflict in Europe'. They must have found a solution for the problem, if problem there is. Then, we can check their solution and see if it can be put in a quickfix.

My pleasure, Pocus. It is hard to express how much I appreciate this magnificent game, and its potential to be even better. Regarding the problems with the unification of Germany and Italy, I guess I will just have to start new games to see how the unification progresses with the new patches. Once I have confirmed the problems, I can check with the conflict in Europe people and ask them how they have dealt with them. It is a great idea, and I thank you for it. But then, I will have to leave my current British game to do that, and that will not be easy. Maybe after the Sepoy Mutiny is put down...

[bjfagan]

As the Prussian player in the big MP game, I have not gotten to the point to know yet if there is a problem with German unification. I looked into the event file and saw that I need at least 60% loyalty in the countries of Hannover, Saxony, Hesse-Kassel, and Hesse-Darmstadt to get the North German Confederation event. If I had known this sooner, some unification cards would not have been wasted on others. It will take a year and a half to get to the point where I can satisfy this requirement, then wait and see when the option to unify is given. Then I can move on to others for full German unification.

[Quirk]

I bought PON on the first day, but haven't touched it, yet. Still waiting for more patches to tune the balance and fix most bugs. I somehow have become some kind of perfectionistic gamer. When I play a game I want to have the best experience it possible can give me. So when I know that there are still (major) bugs or balancing issues, I have to wait.
So i really hope we will see more patches in the coming months or years

[Romtos]

I could not get past the abstract nature of the economic system.

I think the economic system is Vicky 2's greatest strength. It's a beautiful engine.
That said, it wouldn't work for PON, and PON's economic system is both strategic and fun, and still very deep.
In every other aspect, PON has richer features.

[NefariousKoel]

My biggest annoyance in Vic2 is the damnable Influence jockeying. It seems like 67% of my game is adjusting my Influence peddlers in keeping/getting other countries under my influence while the AI moves the stuff about regularly. They should've made it a monthly deal instead of practically real-time because it's useless busy work IMO. It's economy messed up. I just can't bring myself to play it long, and it doesn't look to ever be fixed.

I hope lotsa PrON bugs get squashed, and time gets spent on more polish soon. I've still been wary of starting a serious campaign lately due to some of the bugs.

[vaalen]

Well, my current game as Great Britain is a lot of fun, despite the bugs. I have added a role playing element to it, in which I try to act like the Victorian English would. Recently the Tswana slaughtered one of my exploration parties, so I will teach them a lesson!
Given the realities of campaigning in an undeveloped region of Africa, supply, terrain, and difficulty in moving may mean that I am the one who gets taught a lesson, but British honor mush be upheld! Planning the expedition, raising colonial troops to carry it out, improving my nearby infrastructure in South Africa (roads and depots), beginning operations to destabilize the enemy so I can colonize the place,(merchants, bribing local chiefs), arranging for transport of supplies and troops from Britain, is quite engrossing. But those savages burned the mission I built on their territory!

I also completed a short, enjoyable colonial war with the Dutch, which had a lot of Naval combat around Borneo and Java. The AI had a lot more ships in the area than I did, but the outnumbered ships of the Royal Navy performed superbly, sinking a dutch invasion force that was sailing towards Sarawak, constantly getting the weather gage, and winning two great victories against overwhelming odds. Unfortunately the cunning Dutch AI sank my invasion force heading towards Java, though they lost most of their ships in that combat. A second invasion was aborted when I discovered that the AI had rushed troops to my main invasion target, and my invading forces would have been slaughtered. In the meantime a revolt in North west India laid siege to an important but difficult to reach mountain area. After much effort, I was able to relieve the siege, but the rebels broke off and retreated to the wild,desolate area of Baluchistan. There is no way my troops could attack them there without being worn out by the approach march, so I had to settle for guarding the frontier. The large rebel force disrupted my attempts to colonize the area, burning my missions and trading post, and stopping the process cold. And this is just part of what is going on.

I have learned not to worry about finishing the game, but to enjoy what is going on. And there is a lot to enjoy.

[De_Spinoza]

Couldn't agree more with you, vaalen. I tried to play some Victoria II again too but it just is too shallow after having tried PoN - the multiplayer game I am playing over at the PDox forums is the best experience I ever had in a grand strategy game. I am sure that after the development of NCP II and some more community involvement PoN can truly turn into a gem.

[Sir Garnet]

Vaalen, I agree with you about PON vs. V2, except POP-Demand-modded V2's economy was working well. I would also go with Nefarious on the overly micro flaw in the very nice influence system - playing the diplomatic game as an imperial Spain late last year was fun up to a point but feels flat as you said.

[vaalen]

Vaalen, I agree with you about PON vs. V2, except POP-Demand-modded V2's economy was working well. I would also go with Nefarious on the overly micro flaw in the very nice influence system - playing the diplomatic game as an imperial Spain late last year was fun up to a point but feels flat as you said.

Sir Garnet, I was not familiar with that mod for V2. The vanilla economy was not enjoyable. I also agree with Nefarious about diplomacy after some thought, as adjusting the influence really gets annoying after a while. So far I have played as four nations in PON, and every nation feels unique and different. In V2, I did not have that feeling.

[Ilitarist]

Victoria 2 is breathtaking in theory. Every person in the world is simulated, he consumes, produces, fights, thinks about specific problems. But in the end you're right about war - it's dull, propably cause the game is all about internal politics and economy. But diplomacy and research is pretty boring too. Also I find disturbing absence of espionage in victorian era game, this inflluence system looks more boring than Microsoft Excel. For me it's still a great game with a nice atmosphere, although complexity of economy system makes it unpredictable and sometimes unbelievable. I hope they'll make another expansion.

As for PoN, it's war focus isn't really appropriate for the era, I think, especially with dramatically changing warfare (from Napoleon-style to tanks and submarines). When I want war I still prefer Rise of Prussia or simpler wargames built around specific war.

[vaalen]

Victoria 2 is breathtaking in theory. Every person in the world is simulated, he consumes, produces, fights, thinks about specific problems. But in the end you're right about war - it's dull, propably cause the game is all about internal politics and economy. But diplomacy and research is pretty boring too. Also I find disturbing absence of espionage in victorian era game, this inflluence system looks more boring than Microsoft Excel. For me it's still a great game with a nice atmosphere, although complexity of economy system makes it unpredictable and sometimes unbelievable. I hope they'll make another expansion.

As for PoN, it's war focus isn't really appropriate for the era, I think, especially with dramatically changing warfare (from Napoleon-style to tanks and submarines). When I want war I still prefer Rise of Prussia or simpler wargames built around specific war.

I wonder, have you ever fought colonial wars in PON? I find them quite challenging and enjoyable, and there were quite a few during this era.

[Ilitarist]

I wonder, have you ever fought colonial wars in PON? I find them quite challenging and enjoyable, and there were quite a few during this era.

Really? I thought most of them were streamlined and always ended with European victory. Colonies may only beat you till you get your infinite reserves.

[sagji]

Victoria 2 is breathtaking in theory. Every person in the world is simulated, he consumes, produces, fights, thinks about specific problems. But in the end you're right about war - it's dull, propably cause the game is all about internal politics and economy. But diplomacy and research is pretty boring too. Also I find disturbing absence of espionage in victorian era game, this inflluence system looks more boring than Microsoft Excel. For me it's still a great game with a nice atmosphere, although complexity of economy system makes it unpredictable and sometimes unbelievable. I hope they'll make another expansion.

As for PoN, it's war focus isn't really appropriate for the era, I think, especially with dramatically changing warfare (from Napoleon-style to tanks and submarines). When I want war I still prefer Rise of Prussia or simpler wargames built around specific war.

V2 only models some people - for example it completely ignores the transportation sector of industry. I find part of the problem with V2 is you spend half your time manipulating the political system so that you can control the economic system. I don't like the research system - and I had the way you can choose not to research anything and then when the new decade starts you can put several years of into a tech you have only just unlocked.