Future games

[benpark]

I am impressed by the game system. With a few more details and feeling of contributing to the battles, and this would be an unbeatable system at it's scale. Which has me thinking(already) of other conflicts with this engine.

I know Phillipe mentioned doing a game covering some conflict in Europe next. I'm hoping for a Napoleonic game myself, but whatever it is, I'm sure it will be interesting. I would also like to see an American Civil War game with this engine. It would need a few tweks to give the user a better sense of what is happening during battles(and possibly a few more options to make them more "hands on").

[Patriotes1837]

Agree wholeheartedly on all accounts.

Perfect post. ; )

[Korrigan]

This engine has a real potential, I reckon it can easily cover most conflicts from Greece till WWII.

In fact, as you can solely concentrate on the strategy, this engine is very attractive to me to cover large scale conflicts as WWII.

I understood the team was thinking to an incremental developement, each new game adding new features to the engine.

IMHO, I would put in my wish list: The Victorian period but with a steam punk approach. Indeed, we never had a real fantasy wargame since "Fantasy General" and "Master of Magic" and they are getting old...

Anyway, we dream with loud voice, but first of all Birth of America must be a success to allow further development of this wonderful engine.

[PhilThib]

We do have plenty of dreams...and projects. If BoA succeeds, we'll be moving forward soon...

[pasternakski]

All of you are right on the button. From what little I have played it so far, this game is fun, an excellent depiction of historical conditions, and a really competent wargame engine. I hope it duplicates Brad Wardell's success with Galactic Civilization and sells a quarter million units. I'm doing what I can to spread the word, and I hope that AGEOD is looking at ways to expand its market exposure. It's not often these days you come across something this excellent in the computer wargaming area.

That said, I advise caution in expanding the engine to cover more complex and modern conflicts and technology. There are a lot of game subjects (Napoleonic era and American Civil War are two excellent examples pointed out so astutely above) that I would like to see tackled first. I sense a hungry market out there that is largely unsatisfied by the efforts of several companies that have done incomplete and incompetent work (Paradox and Matrix, among others) and generated some significant bad feeling. AGEOD, in my estimation, has the potential to change all that - but please do it slowly, gentlemen, and not get in too deep too fast.

Ooh - a thought just occurred to me - the Peloponnesian War - oh, yeah...
Best wishes for the future from a very satisfied customer.

[waynef]

The most important thing ... Im having fun ... its been along time since I could say that about a game.

Great Job

Now, In a future patch supply a Scenario Editor and the ability to share those Scenario's with fellow gamers --- Woo Hoo

I played a scenario today (as the British) and defeated John Paul Jones at sea!

Then by not paying attention on my part --- Cornwalis was killed in Action near Georgetown!

Love it

[Pocus]

Progress will be incremental with the game engine yes. We dont want it to morph progressively into a big bloated buggy thing.

[Sol Invictus]

Well since we play The French and Indian War in BOA, my first choice for the next game would be to take the whole show back across the ocean and show us what's happening in the Seven Years War. After that, Napoleonic Wars is a must and maybe a little Thiry Years War action. English Civil War would be great too. Would need a bit more diplomatic action for NW and SYW though. Isn't it great that Europe has given us so much material to work with over the last few centuries. I would stay away from WW2 though, it's been done to death.

[benpark]

English Civil War would be great. I loved "Kingmaker".

[Ashbery76]

Just bought it and played the tutorial, pretty dam impressed so far, the art is lovely and finally a good interface for a PhilThib game.

I am hoping for a Napoleonic game with this engine and maybe another Pax.

[Reiryc]

We do have plenty of dreams...and projects. If BoA succeeds, we'll be moving forward soon...

Well I've seen nothing but positive feedback so far, so this is good news.

I'd also like to see something napoleonic or maybe even something along the lines of the 30 years war. I don't care how fast or slow you guys go, but if you can produce some good entertainment like matrix, paradox, or hps has, then I for one will be a happy camper.

[Hell Patrol]

It's not often these days you come across something this excellent in the computer wargaming area.

Best wishes for the future from a very satisfied customer.

Coming from Pasternakski you guys should be honored, i would have bought BoA right away(if i hadn't already) just by this post and my past experience with the Matrix forums(Witp). Well said!

Seven Years War, 30 years too...all good choices. I would love to see Frederik The Great get some well deserved attention with a "quality" engine such as this. This engine could easily handle the "Campaigns Of Napoleon", both East and West, allowing the player to try to emulate the Master without being bogged down with micro and/or minutia...like some other <cough> games.

[Rooster]

I agree 100% with a game covering Frederick the Great or the English Civil War. There are umpteen other good choices as well - room for many lesser known/gamed conflicts.

[pasternakski]

Coming from Pasternakski you guys should be honored, i would have bought BoA right away(if i hadn't already) just by this post and my past experience with the Matrix forums(Witp). Well said!

My blushes, Watson - but I reckon you all recognize high quality merchandise on your own when you see (and buy and use) it. My problem has always been that I struggle NEVER to see the Emperor's new clothes. If Matrix hadn't bought into the idea that Gary Grigsby was the 1100-pound gorilla of computer wargaming, stopped, and put some reason and structure into their design process, they wouldn't have made such a mess of things. I never wished them ill (and was, at one time, a premier defender of theirs against what I thought to be unwarranted criticism), but I can honestly say that I consider every dime I spent on their products to have been utterly wasted. My opinion only, your results can vary, don't try this at home.

No more about them from me. I'm just happy to have found stuff that is worth my time and money. Now, back to fighting off those nasty French and their Indian allies (I'm finding that the AI is really good and gives you a fun run for your money as the French side in the F&I Wars campaign - of course, I still suck as a player - think of me as le vaccumme).

[Dadaan]

You darn Europeans and your English/Napoleonic wars. I've been waiting for a good strategic American Civil War game sine 95'!!! Seriously though, great game, and I look forward to anything you produce in the future.

[pasternakski]

You darn Europeans and your English/Napoleonic wars. I've been waiting for a good strategic American Civil War game sine 95'!!! Seriously though, great game, and I look forward to anything you produce in the future.

Well, this brings up a serious point, though, having to do with what you can sell. How many people are going to buy a computer wargame based on the 30 Years' War? How many people even know what the 30 Years' War was (or even how long it really lasted - particularly those under 30)?

The bulk of the computer wargaming market is, for better or worse, in the US, as you so accurately recognize, Dadaan. Some games on European topics (outside of Napoleonics, which have done pretty good business across the board) have sold well, particularly when they were good designs, but you can see that most publishers have gone with what traditionally has sold the most, and that is WWII.

Still, back in the boardgaming days, some games did decently well that you wouldn't have expected. AH's "Kingmaker," which presented the English Wars of the Roses, comes to mind. I think maybe a big part of it is finding a responsive part of the audience and convincing them that what you are developing is an interesting product, notwithstanding where the subject is set. Many people I know have drifted away from wargaming because the promise computer games originally held (remember "now you can always find an opponent" as SSI's marketing strategy?) has largely gone unfulfilled in the face of developers shrugging their shoulders and saying, "It's impossible to build a good AI."

Somebody needs to go pick Brad Wardell's brain over at Stardock. His bunch sold a quarter million copies of Galactic Civilizations and expect equal - or greater - success with version II which is coming out shortly. One of his primary emphases has been artificial intelligence development. Was it the subject of the Civilization series of games that made them such big sellers, or was it that you played them yourself? The SimCity series. Is its attraction the idea of developing metropolitan areas, or that you do it at your leisure against the conditions set before you by the AI that underlies every element of the game?

Let us not forget. Even in the heyday of board wargaming, about three of every four games played was solitaire. If you want to sell a lot of computer wargames, you've got to tap into that, like it or not. Otherwise, you'll have to sit back and tell your grandchildren about how your biggest hit, a monster game on the Pacific Theater in WWII, sold 2500 and then died because your production company thought there were enough PBEM gamers out there to revitalize a hobby that, instead, is crying out for games that can play against you themselves and beat you fair and square without having to resort to cheating.

I, for one, am tickled to see, so far, how well the AI plays in BoA. More, fellas, more, more, more. It's the ticket to success.

[Sol Invictus]

I agree, pbem is fine but playing a game one turn a day, and sometimes less, just doesn't do it for me. When I feel like fighting the French and Indian War; by God I want to get some suff accomplished. I will certainly play BOA by email, but most times I want to devour a game, not nibble. A good AI is worth it's weight in GOLD.

[PhilThib]

Well, its rather funny to see that among your wishes we can find some of the games we already have in mind...and started working on

Thanks to all

[[FS] Feltan]

....Let us not forget. Even in the heyday of board wargaming, about three of every four games played was solitaire. If you want to sell a lot of computer wargames, you've got to tap into that, like it or not....I, for one, am tickled to see, so far, how well the AI plays in BoA. More, fellas, more, more, more. It's the ticket to success.

Pasternaksi,

I thought I was the only one that remembered the heyday of board wargaming!

I remember how "cool" everyone thought it was that I ginned up a program on a TRS-80 to "automatically" roll the dice to resolve combat. The return key almost wore out playing War in the East.

Regards,
Feltan

[Pocus]

anybody for a game of Fortress Europa, War & Peace or Vietnam?

[PhilThib]

or Civil War

[Adlertag]

And also "Wooden ships & Iron Men" ( AH , published in 1776 ....oups 1976 ) with some scenarii in the time period covered by BoA : Chesapeake Bay : De Grasse vs Graves and Hood ; "the most important naval victory of XVIIIth century " according to the historian Jonathan Dull or Fregates duels like the one which opposed La Pérouse vessels to an English convoy escort.

[pasternakski]

or Civil War

PhilThib, if you're referring to the old Victory Games title, you're a man after my own heart. I think that game was just about the best board wargame design ever - it fit its subject so well, the game mechanics were so straightforward and sensible, and the treatment of leaders - so vitally important in that era of warfare - magnifique - superb - superlativ.

I've always hoped that someone would undertake to create a computer wargame based on that system, but designers seem to be having the devil's own time "porting" the old paper-and-cardboard games (I have yet to see a good one, and those I am aware of that are in development seem to be encountering major problems along the way).

Speaking of Victory Games, I've got to put in a plug for my personal all-time favorite solitaire design, Peloponnesian War. I suggested on another game company forum that this one deserves study because it contains a built-in solution to a major part of the AI problem - depending on certain criteria, you are forced to switch sides from time to time, thus playing against your own success. I know it sounds strange, but it really works, at least in this game's historical context.

Of course, nobody over there ever listened to me, complete jackass that I am (many people put me on "ignore" because I was such a pain in the derriere).

[benpark]

I never found a good enough boardgame that covered the American Revolution and the French and Indian War, so this is a great find. I bet most of us here got our start boardgaming. I loved "War and Peace" and "Napoleon at Bay"(amongst others) from the early 1980's on. That's why I hope for a Napoleonic game from this series.

[[FS] Feltan]

....I've always hoped that someone would undertake to create a computer wargame based on that system, but designers seem to be having the devil's own time "porting" the old paper-and-cardboard games (I have yet to see a good one, and those I am aware of that are in development seem to be encountering major problems along the way...

You and me both.

Which brings a question to mind: Did the designers/developers play the old Avalon Hill game "1776" prior to BoA? A couple of things seem to be direct lifts from that game, namely, river transport and converting a supply and an artillery into a fort.

Regards,
Feltan

[PhilThib]

Feltan']You and me both.

Which brings a question to mind: Did the designers/developers play the old Avalon Hill game "1776" prior to BoA?
Feltan

Your guess ???

If I say to you that I fell waist-deep in the boardgaming world back in 1978, that will ring many bells...

My long-time favorite list was

- Europa Universalis (AWE)
- War & Peace (AH)
- Civil War (VG)
- 1776 (AH)
- Freedom in the Galaxy (AH)
- Empires in Arms (ADG/AH)
- World in Flames (ADG)

...

[Pocus]

hey you played Freedom in the Galaxy? I still have it at home, and enjoyed it very much too. Perhaps we should make a real reb vs empire game with the AGE engine one day, seems that some designers are unable to do that (bought Empire at War one week ago, now only my 6 years son is playing it).

[JohnB]

Those titles bring back memories to me, who must have got into boardgaming in the 1970s' as well. Victory Games "Civil War" was one of the all-time greats. More often than not it went right down to the wire, with the Confederates holding on to Richmond and Atlanta to the last turn.

Sounds like a great possibility to base a BOA series game around. It would also have excellent sales potential, I think.

How about one based on the Peninsular War? Never really been done as a computer game, and those Spanish guerillas were rather like Indians

It would also be excellent for BOA area movement.

[Hell Patrol]

Feltan']
Which brings a question to mind: Did the designers/developers play the old Avalon Hill game "1776" prior to BoA? A couple of things seem to be direct lifts from that game, namely, river transport and converting a supply and an artillery into a fort.

Regards,
Feltan

apy:
I was just looking at my copy of 1776(Avalon Hill), still in mint condition with all the counters in those nifty little plastic organizers, when i was visiting my "old room" in the house i grew up in. I had/have a walk-in closet just for my wargames and 1/32 scale mititary models(and some other "models" ) and it hit me then...there is something so familiar.

I have been having a blast playing BoA, and have really had some great results against the British at times which lead me to another observation: Guerilla tactics, just like Vietnam, are so well displayed that it is blatantly obvious how well a Vietnam era game with BoA's system of posture/terrain relations...could be done so well, in fact better, than anything previously released to date. Of course, this could be just as easily exampled by a General such as Stonewall Jackson...the potential is enormous .

[pasternakski]

...it is blatantly obvious how well a Vietnam era game with BoA's system of posture/terrain relations...could be done so well, in fact better, than anything previously released to date.

I don't know of a single attempt at a strategic-level Vietnam computer wargame. Sad. I hate to sound like a one-trick pony, but I go back to another great Victory Games product, Vietnam 1965-1975, as a source of terrific ideas for a computerized attempt at the subject. The "flowchart" approach to the turn sequence was nothing short of a stroke of genius, as was the handling of South Vietnamese politics and VC/NVN recruiting and infiltration. Did I mention how brilliantly (and simply) the game built American public opinion and support for the war into the design?

I always felt that its one shortcoming was reliance on hexes, which subtracted from the fluid "feel" I think the subject demands, and caused some fiddling around with geographic realities. BoA's system of "region" movement and "areas" should be just what Doctor Ho ordered...