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Longshanks
AGEod Grognard
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A Discussion about Battle Results v Expectations

Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:16 pm

In a recent tournament game, Moni Kerr sent a 60,000 man force under Lee against scant Union forces in Humphreys, Tennessee (the region just south of Ft. Donelson). His force was crushed, losing two days of battles each of which cost -6 NM. He subsequently sent me this message:

I cannot figure out how, with almost 3-1 advantage Lee against Rosencrans I can lose so badly. There is nothing in the battle report that explains those results. This doesn't make any sense.

This was my reply. I hope you'll chime in with your observations and questions as well:

I have seen such results many times. I restored the previous turn in your game and re-ran it 4 times, to see what would happen. (These results are displayed below the maps and battle reports.)

Battle Conditions.
The common denominator to all battles was that they were fought in the hills against entrenched troops - not the ideal conditions for offense. NM was slightly in the CSA's favor, 100 to 79 (as I recall there's a slight penalty below 80 - I'd have to look it up though. You get no bonus for 100.). Hooker was entrenched with two divisions (lvl 3 but only 4 days away from lvl 4) and set to "hold at all costs." His troops were pretty average, with no experience and only one elite unit, the Regular Bde. He had lots of arty, and French to lead it, but this was somewhat offset by being in the hills. Hooker had the only union supply unit in the region: 0 GS, but 80 ammo. Interestingly, Hooker does not appear on the CSA map! Pope is also shown with lots of troops, almost all of which were actually detached, extremely weak, and scheduled to be out of the region by Day 8. Rosecrans, also not on your map, was moving in from the south on G/G with a relatively weak division and no SU. Pope had no troops. Given that you had Forrest with NINE cavalry brigades in the adjacent area, the lack of knowledge about what was in Humphreys is somewhat surprising! There were lots of union ironclads nearby, but none were set to bombard. Whipple's weak corps was adjacent in Ft Donelson, but did not MtSG. Buell's corps was across the Cumberland and therefore could not MtSG. You had 60,000 (at least on day 15), and the Union had 28,000. This is more like 2-1 than 3-1, although you will note on the battle reports the effective force was more like 3-1.

Map of the Area Before the Battle from the CSA View
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Map of the Area Before the Battle from the USA View
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The Battle Results
Day 14 Battle
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Day 15 Battle
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As I said, I restored the previous turn and re-ran the battle four times. Here are the replay results.

1. You lost men (but not units) at levels comparable to the tourney turn, but only one battle and -4 NM.
2. You won, but with more losses than the Union and therefore got 0 NM.
3. You lost one battle, -4 NM, but Sid Johnston stayed in the region which was still 100% Union MC.
4. About the same result as in the tourney turn, but only one battle -6 NM. Sid J stayed in the region, along with Hooker (who still doesn't show up on the CSA map!!!) and Rosecrans.

For the tourney turn, the sequence of movement caused your army to fight on day 14, and then receive a reinforcement on day 15 which caused a second battle. This did not occur in any of the replays, where all battles were on the 15th day.

The random number generator was not your friend. First, Sid Johnston arrived on day 14 and started the fight "early." When the rest of your army arrived on day 15 you fought again. In the four replays, he did not start the battle on day 14 and your army fought only on day 15. Having two battles instead of one was not in your favor in this instance.

Second, you took heavier losses in both the tourney battles than in all but one (#4) of the replays. Mostly this was because there were two battles. In replay #1 and #2 the losses were about the same as in the tourney turn, but only for one battle - but the Union had units eliminated too and you didn't lose so many, which lowered the NM loss from 6 to 4. And of course in one replay you won - although you still took more losses than your opponent so you got no NM.

I thought your expectations for the attack were reasonable, but your forces were not prepared in advance - they were scattered all over, had to move to Nashville and then coordinate an attack that could not possibly start until Day 14 the day your first unit, Sid J's corps, was slated to arrive. I find it remarkable that ALL your units managed to join in on the attack in EVERY turn, both the tourney one and the replays. Also, your knowledge of what was in the region was very different from what turned out to be there, although I expect you might have gone in anyway had you known, with Lee available to lead a 2-1 charge.

In subsequent email discussions, I got these replies:

from Moni Kerr:
Thanks for looking into it. I suppose the movement of Jackson and Johnston and the battle taking place on day 14 had a big impact on how many troops actually took part. Jackson was congratulated and Polk's corp took some damage so they obviously participated at some point. Johnston was set to conservative attack so I don't understand the very high losses with no attempts to retreat.

I had 3729 pwr vs 1490 pwr which is almost 3-1 and my combat report shows 122 sub units deployed at the start vs 71. The weather was fair that turn, it only changed to mud for the current turn so there is no combat penalty for the attacker. (Shanks speaking: I had previously noted incorrectly that the battle was fought in the mud ... although it's never clear to me exactly WHEN the weather changes).

The note about not not seeing what is in the region is interesting. I've been hampered by this all game and have wondered why, especially here with so much cav available to me.

from Rattler:

I agree with MK on how that battle is unhistorical with a OOB he had. It is just another example on how OP trenches are so early in the game, which is why I am so aggresive in the first year. While I agree that the battle results are very uninformative, by looking at the range losses I would attribute the victory to the USA's quality of guns. The battle report also doesn't give any MTSG units into the count, I currently have nearly 40k men and 180 guns in the area after the losses in the battle. I know they took part because the small division of mine that was destroyed was not even at Humphrey's, but the garrison at Donelson.

------------

As I said, additional comments welcome.
Two Rules: 1. The Tournament Director is always right. 2. When the Tournament Director is wrong, see Rule 1.
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rattler01
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Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:03 pm

USA expected OOB as of the 14th day:

Humphrey's TN
Pope: Corps
1 man

Hooker:
14,000 men 96 guns 760 pwr (this would increase as they would gain 1.6 org a day) (lvl 4 trenches)

Rosecans: Corps
5,500 men 36 guns (243) pwr (arrive on day 10)

Donelson fort area:
Whipple: Corps
1000 men 24 guns (113) pwr (this unit was destroyed, proving Whipple did MTSG on the first battle, but wasn't in 2nd because of destruction)

Berry Corps:
7,700 men (386) pwr (arrive day 12) (did MTSG both days)


Did not participate:

Parke:
11,000 men 9 guns (12 pwr) (not a typo they had no org) arrived day 8
Halleck: Corps
1 man arrived day 3


After having more info I see the battle report is actually more accurate than I thought with Parke's men unable to MTSG at all.
The 2 to 1 ratio is probably more accurate with the fact every day my org went up and his went down marching into hilly terrain.
While I have no reason for Hooker not currently appearing, I would guess he wouldn't appear on the pre battle turn because he was alone having arrived to assume a command of some sort. While I don't know the meats and bones of how battle develops. It seems from just looking at stacks after the combat that once a single div gets mauled the other ones will not engage even when you still have a huge advantage. I've done multi corps attacks before and seen the attack abandoned with some corps not even engaging after the first was defeated.


Post note: I think the CSA can see Hooker currently. He is under Rosecan's potrait (which is at 4 hide value) aas the "2" flag with a hide value of 2. With the CSA detect value of 4 in the region he should be able to barely see Rosecans and get details about Hooker's group. I wish you could move an opponent potraits around in regions.
"To fallen comrades. And Winged Warriors; past, present, and future. One team, one fight. Winged Warriors."

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Aphrodite Mae
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Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:03 pm

rattler01 wrote:[...]I wish you could move an opponent potraits around in regions.


There are undocumented keyboard shortcuts for hiding enemy units, and your own, as well! I've forgotten them, but perhaps other forum vets remember...?

It occurred to me that Caccio's battle reporter utility would be very useful, here. I'm not sure whether its been updated to cover recent patches or not, though...

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Jim-NC
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Location: Near Region 209, North Carolina

Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:47 pm

I can think of an easy reason to not see Hooker as the CSA. He was in Pope's corps, or teleported in. The CSA sees things as how they were at the beginning of the turn before the USA's orders. Thus, if Hooker was in the same stack as Pope at the end of last turn, he would not appear separately. He has the same entrenchment levels as Pope does. I do have to say that you can't get a lot of information about the 2nd unit in a region (it only says "also here - Hooker's Corps (3 units)) which is a bit of a pain sometimes.

I will hazard a guess, on the battle results, I think some CSA unit moved in by water? It appears to be the same 15 units CSA units were destroyed both times. My guess is that it was Colston's division? as he is recovering from injuries. Did someone have move by riverine transport? I base this on the massive ranged casualties suffered by the union. This would also explain the lack of retreat (IIRC - you can't retreat from a riverine landing).

I have seen a similar battle result, where a corps moved by riverine into Nashville, which I still held, with similar results.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

moni kerr
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:10 am

One lesson here is don't trust the battle report. It shows me with 3729 pwr vs 1490 pwr which is almost 3-1 (Union trench value was given as 201), but it's clear that although Jackson's and Polk's corps participated (they both suffered casualties and Jackson was congratulated) they weren't enough to save Johnston's corp which lost one division on the first day and the other on the 2nd day of battle. I also found it puzzling that Johnston persisted in attacking despite having a conservative attack order.

My report shows I had 122 elements deployed vs 71 and my units failed 7 moral checks while the Union forces failed 23, or one shy of 1/3 of it's total force. The wiki states that a unit that fails a moral check has a reduced combat value, so it's confusing me to see 1/3 of the Union force fail moral checks yet still deal out tremendous ranged damage. The report also showed that 16 of my units routed ( I think that was Colston's division getting destroyed) which is a catastrophic failure of a moral check, but strangely they aren't counted in the moral check failure box.

Jim, all my units arrived overland via Nashville. There was no riverine movement or crossing of rivers. I knew Hooker was there because I saw him move there via replay. I just couldn't see him during the turn so I assumed he was alone and therefore had a high hide value. In fact the only units I could see were Whipple and Pope. I think Pope had the command until Hooker arrived. After the battle I can see 2 stacks in Humpries but besides "Leader" and "Regular" I can't see anything useful. This is despite my having a large cav presence in Nashville. Forest's division emerged unscathed but my detection value declined.

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Captain_Orso
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:34 am

Aphrodite Mae wrote:There are undocumented keyboard shortcuts for hiding enemy units, and your own, as well! I've forgotten them, but perhaps other forum vets remember...?

It occurred to me that Caccio's battle reporter utility would be very useful, here. I'm not sure whether its been updated to cover recent patches or not, though...

:love:














*huh* what? :confused: oh.. eh.. the keyboard shortcuts :o

(ctrl-F1 thru ctrl-F4) will filter fixed units, enemy units, your land units, all units.

I haven't heard if the Battle Reporter still works. I've used it a couple of times, but am not sure if it's working correctly, but it didn't crash on me or anything.

So, where was I? Oh yeah.. :love:


;)

FelixZ
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:58 am

Longshanks seems to have accidentally posted the battle report twice(?). Note the two battle report pictures both read Day 14, and every detail seems to be identical.

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Longshanks
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:49 am

Oops! I better fix that!
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Pocus
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:38 am

I guess nobody has started analysing the lengthy battlelogs of one of the defeat? :)
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Longshanks
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:19 am

Day 15 Battle Pix fixed on earlier post.
Two Rules: 1. The Tournament Director is always right. 2. When the Tournament Director is wrong, see Rule 1.

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Longshanks
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:22 am

Pocus:
Is there any way I can go back and retrieve those battle logs, or are they gone forever the instant you run another turn?
Two Rules: 1. The Tournament Director is always right. 2. When the Tournament Director is wrong, see Rule 1.

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Pocus
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:46 am

I think they pile up turn after turn but get erased once you restart the game... So no possibility. Although you can run another time the turn and if there is a sound (and weird?) defeat, analyse the logs.
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Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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Leibst
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:11 am

its strange for me that lose of unionist artillery in the first battle. In ranged combat not in assault and defending in hills.

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rattler01
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:12 pm

@ Leibstandarte: All those elements were from a corp that MTSG that consisted one small division, which was totally destroyed. After thinking about it, I find it odd how a corp that MTSGed was what faced the brunt of the attack.
"To fallen comrades. And Winged Warriors; past, present, and future. One team, one fight. Winged Warriors."

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Jim-NC
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Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:50 pm

The game engine picks units for fighting from all the available for the turn. Thus it doesn't matter when you marched to the battle, if you get picked, off you go.
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.

[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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