Paradox Interactive suddenly announced Napoleon's Campaigns II. I wonder have it some correlation with a "new project AGEOD working on" and we will not see new patches or most needed addon for PoN?
By the way, Napoleon's Campaigns II based on stupid Clausewitz engine and not on AGE.
deoved wrote:Paradox Interactive suddenly announced Napoleon's Campaigns II. I wonder have it some correlation with a "new project AGEOD working on" and we will not see new patches or most needed addon for PoN?
By the way, Napoleon's Campaigns II based on stupid Clausewitz engine and not on AGE.
Before complaining any details we should wait until more is known...I will buy the game anyway if I have the money for it...
greetings
Hohenlohe
R.I.P. Henry D.
In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...
In Remembrance of my Granduncle Hans Weber, a Hungaro-German Soldier,served in Austro-Hungarian Forces during WWI,war prisoner, missed in Sibiria 1918...
Kensai wrote:Why we criticize the game before even getting are hands on a demo? Patience is a virtue. Clausewitz has certain merits. I trust AGEOD's developers.
PoN can still get updates, I don't understand the worrying. Since v1.02 the game is perfectly playable anyway.
Cause i forsee it now: it will be crappy Victoria II clone.
Perhaps his phrasing was a bit off.
No one is suggesting that a real-time Napoleonic game cannot be a fun game.
But games that are merely fun do not interest me, and probably don't interest a lot of serious wargamers. When I want to have fun I play Europa Universalis, which has realistic elements but can't be taken too seriously.
But if I'm going to play a wargame, I want to be able to convince myself that it models the mechanics of what happened in a more or less convincing way.
I haven't gotten around to playing an AGEOD game by PBEM yet, though that's purely circumstantial: I'm an active member of the Blitz wargame club and currently have several HPS/Tiller pbem games in progress. I've also been playing a lot of solitaire hotseat Campaign Leipzig scenarios for a variety of reasons (including working on the next patch). But I completely fail to see how a real time game could be played by e-mail. If you can bridge that one successfully, then you're a real genius, even if I still think that real time is decidedly inferior when it comes to modeling command and control in a realistic way. Command and control, by the way, is probably one of the things that would get described as part of the final essence of Napoleonic warfare once you boil things down.
The necessity for being able to play by e-mail isn't about mere social interaction. No AI is ever going to really be up to snuff, unless you pour money and programming resources into it on the scale of a space program. But a game that has full pbem capability also has full double-solitaire capability (i.e. hotseat against yourself). And if you can't play hotseat against yourself you'll never really be sure that the simulation can model a historically accurate outcome (and you'll also never experience playing against a perfectly matched opponent).
Real time Napoleon feels un-Napoleonic. Not to mention socially awkward because if your pbem oppenents are in the US, Australia, and Europe, you'll never find a convenient time when everyone's fully awake. But the awkwardness of coming up with live opponents that you have any desire to interact with is not that important. Wargames are supposed to simulate history, not game conventions. One of the wargaming explosions occured when people finally realized that it was unrealistic to use the old dog-eared Avalon Hill combat results table from the early sixties to simulate every battle in every era. Locking yourself into a real time environment is probably going to do something similar to your ability to represent command and control (unless you build in some really clever time delays on accepting and acting on orders), and makes testing the model against history close to impossible.
Bottom line: it doesn't ruin live online multi-player if you can build in enough protocols and the players can find enough people that they actually want to play with. But it makes pbem games between two or more players virtually impossible. I think that translates out to destroys pbem (unless you've got a really clever trick up your sleeve).
No one is suggesting that a real-time Napoleonic game cannot be a fun game.
But games that are merely fun do not interest me, and probably don't interest a lot of serious wargamers. When I want to have fun I play Europa Universalis, which has realistic elements but can't be taken too seriously.
But if I'm going to play a wargame, I want to be able to convince myself that it models the mechanics of what happened in a more or less convincing way.
I haven't gotten around to playing an AGEOD game by PBEM yet, though that's purely circumstantial: I'm an active member of the Blitz wargame club and currently have several HPS/Tiller pbem games in progress. I've also been playing a lot of solitaire hotseat Campaign Leipzig scenarios for a variety of reasons (including working on the next patch). But I completely fail to see how a real time game could be played by e-mail. If you can bridge that one successfully, then you're a real genius, even if I still think that real time is decidedly inferior when it comes to modeling command and control in a realistic way. Command and control, by the way, is probably one of the things that would get described as part of the final essence of Napoleonic warfare once you boil things down.
The necessity for being able to play by e-mail isn't about mere social interaction. No AI is ever going to really be up to snuff, unless you pour money and programming resources into it on the scale of a space program. But a game that has full pbem capability also has full double-solitaire capability (i.e. hotseat against yourself). And if you can't play hotseat against yourself you'll never really be sure that the simulation can model a historically accurate outcome (and you'll also never experience playing against a perfectly matched opponent).
Real time Napoleon feels un-Napoleonic. Not to mention socially awkward because if your pbem oppenents are in the US, Australia, and Europe, you'll never find a convenient time when everyone's fully awake. But the awkwardness of coming up with live opponents that you have any desire to interact with is not that important. Wargames are supposed to simulate history, not game conventions. One of the wargaming explosions occured when people finally realized that it was unrealistic to use the old dog-eared Avalon Hill combat results table from the early sixties to simulate every battle in every era. Locking yourself into a real time environment is probably going to do something similar to your ability to represent command and control (unless you build in some really clever time delays on accepting and acting on orders), and makes testing the model against history close to impossible.
Bottom line: it doesn't ruin live online multi-player if you can build in enough protocols and the players can find enough people that they actually want to play with. But it makes pbem games between two or more players virtually impossible. I think that translates out to destroys pbem (unless you've got a really clever trick up your sleeve).
-
hannibal128
- Private
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 9:37 pm
age in clausewitz duisguise
on the ad it says
Multiplayer restriction: Play-by-Email only
might be just the gui. I just hopes it stays with the historical feel. A trait that paradox has lost since eu3.In eu3 I am fighting against a database were france can collapse or russia never get created and there is nothing I can do about it.eu2 had more of a historical feel to it. agoed games were allways very historical . "Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them" and Agoed gave you that chance
Multiplayer restriction: Play-by-Email only
might be just the gui. I just hopes it stays with the historical feel. A trait that paradox has lost since eu3.In eu3 I am fighting against a database were france can collapse or russia never get created and there is nothing I can do about it.eu2 had more of a historical feel to it. agoed games were allways very historical . "Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them" and Agoed gave you that chance
Philippe wrote:I haven't gotten around to playing an AGEOD game by PBEM yet...
There are still slots in our MP game if you feel like trying.
On the other hand, MP in turn-based games can become extremely slow. In real-time at least you arrange once in a while and are able to cover much time that would literally take months to do so in turns.
hannibal128 wrote:on the ad it says
Multiplayer restriction: Play-by-Email only
might be just the gui. I just hopes it stays with the historical feel. A trait that paradox has lost since eu3.In eu3 I am fighting against a database were france can collapse or russia never get created and there is nothing I can do about it.eu2 had more of a historical feel to it. agoed games were allways very historical . "Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them" and Agoed gave you that chance
I had missed that - so there is hope, however the screen shots show the game at different speeds and the specs appear to be lower than I would expect (in fact they are the same as for the original NC)
When I said it ruins multi player I mean it ruins it for me. First it is real-time which I don't like, and then there is the fact you have to get everybody playing at the same time.
I can generally ignore the historical inaccuracies - the exception was Rome, where the issue was not the errors but that in adapting it from EU3 they made things worse - i.e. EU3 is a better model of combat in the time of the Republic than Rome is.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests