Project Minor Countries

[marcusjm]

I thought I would launch this initiative for those interested.

The goal would be simple, to add events and data for the following minor countries to make them more playable.

Netherlands
Belgium
Ottoman Empire
Sweden
Denmark
Portugal
Spain

Any takers for this somewhat ambitious project? I could of course do research on Sweden and I guess there is one candidate for OE but any others?

[Amadeus_66]

I can make some research for italian minors if you wish, other then that I need to understand better the game itself first.

But I fully support the idea to have those nations in game,we need them, I will see if I can found some old doc from the time I was playing Vicky (the first one)

Regards

[Franciscus]

I am correcting some errors or inacuracies (mainly map related) of Portugal. I may be interested in the future in modding Portugal in terms of events, characters, etc, but that only in the long term.

First, I must understand the game, play it, then maybe understand how events, etc. are made. Not accounting for the small details of real life...
And of course, I will need to do some heavy refreshment on Portugal's history in the 2nd half of the XIX century (really, I am no history nerd, and although Portuguese I probably now a lot more about USA history of this period than of my own country..:bonk .

So, maybe, in the future...

[von Sachsen]

Sounds great! But no China?

[Romtos]

I'm not too familiar with this stuff, but would Mexico and Brazil be appropriate candidates? Or are they significantly less relevant than the country's in the OP and China?

[caranorn]

I've already done some very preliminary research on Belgium. Mostly to determine what missions it should have (a lot of second places behind England). I was planning to wait for the game to be published, play around a bit and then see what needs to be done to add Belgium as a fully playable country.

It would also require the addition of crisis for minors Pocus has already hinted at. Belgium as we have in in PoN had the Luxembourg Crisis (even without Luxembourg it was involved), the "Rhodesian" Crisis (Cecile Rhodes encroaching on the Congo), a similar crisis early on for the Congo, probably the transition from the Free State to Belgian congo etc.

P.S.: I wish it were easier to mod the map as I'd like to separate Luxembourg out (though modify it from the current regional setup to represent only the Grand Duchy) and split the current Belgian regions from Flanders and Wallonie to Flanders (representing the two Flemish provinces and Belgian Limburg), Brabant (representing all of Brabant plus Brussels and Hainaut), Liège (small but industrially powerful) and Namur (Namur and Belgian Luxembourg, with Liège the location of Belgium's industries and resources). These changes would allow several historic situations. A) Luxembourg's industries having close ties to German States (coal imports) while Belgian industries were largely self reliant (brief periods where coal had to be imported, but most of the time global 2nd in production was sufficient). B) Luxembourg having a Prussian garrison with a significant fortress until the Luxembourg Crisis, likewise having the possibility to join the German Confederation (Luxembourg was represented at the earlier conferences). C) The redistribution of Belgian provinces would make the west of the country even poorer and the east richer and at the same time allow for the historic massive productions of coal and iron (at least iron no. 2 (I doubt my source that said Belgium achieved no. 2 in that area, but I'm sure it was close)) cannot be achieved in the game right now. D) Also allow for the Belgian fortress construction along the borders and the sea (Liège, Namur and Antwerp)...

P.P.S.: But I don't consider the current regions a game breaker in any way, they are an acceptable abstraction. In the end, tweaking regional productions might be enough to boost Belgium to it's historic role...

[PhilThib]

I thought I would launch this initiative for those interested.

The goal would be simple, to add events and data for the following minor countries to make them more playable.

Netherlands
Belgium
Ottoman Empire
Sweden
Denmark
Portugal
Spain

Any takers for this somewhat ambitious project? I could of course do research on Sweden and I guess there is one candidate for OE but any others?

I have already made events for HOL, BEL, TUR, SPA and POR...some are not yet active in the game because the nations are not playable, but they do have effects. The Belgian and Turkish events are fully operational (in 1.01C beta patch version)

[Franciscus]

I have already made events for HOL, BEL, TUR, SPA and POR...some are not yet active in the game because the nations are not playable, but they do have effects. The Belgian and Turkish events are fully operational (in 1.01C beta patch version)

Great news !

[Romtos]

I have already made events for HOL, BEL, TUR, SPA and POR...some are not yet active in the game because the nations are not playable, but they do have effects. The Belgian and Turkish events are fully operational (in 1.01C beta patch version)

Very nice to hear how much is still being added!

[caranorn]

For now I'll post this here for lack of a specific topic (Help to Improve PoN) here at Ageod...

Today I've been checking through some data on coal production for Belgium (http://geo.uni.lu/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=23&Itemid=71) and found some interesting, but also some disturbing info for the game. Unfortunatelly total production is not listed most of the time, but essentially I've come to the following conclusions:

Belgian coal production was already well established by 1850 with roughly 5 million tons/year in just the Mons and Charleroi areas (adding even a moderate ammount for la Louvière and Liège would raise that to something like 6 million, still have to research mining in Flanders).
French Lorraine on the other hand had only just entered the coal production era (due to technological constraints) barely achieving 1/4 of a million production by the early 1870's.
Prussian Sarre likewise just starting up with 0,6 million tons in 1850.

Compare that to in game values (actual production); 16 units in Belgium, 8 in Lorraine and 14 in Sarre. Obviously something is way off in the game right now...

Oh, for the end game period I think historic production would be something like 25 million tons in Belgium, 4-5 million tons in Lorraine and 17 million in Sarre. In game buildable mines are 7/6/7 respectively for Belgium/Lorraine(inc. Nancy)/Sarre. So there is no way to reflect the historic 1850-1920 production rates. It's only after WWI that Lorraine and Sarre start to gain ground on Belgian coal mining and even then Lorraine never exceeded 15 million tons (1980's)...

Charts:
(note obvisouly first chart can't be entirely correct as it contradicts the 2nd and 3rd)

1810-1914 production comparisons



Saar



Lorraine



Edit: labelled charts here for easier comprehension.

[PhilThib]

Compare that to in game values (actual production); 16 units in Belgium, 8 in Lorraine and 14 in Sarre. Obviously something is way off in the game right now...

Currently, the resources DB has 8 coal for Belgium (incl 6 in Wallonie), 4 for Lorraine and 7 in Saar (each mine extracts 2 coal from each resource)

I'll beef up a bit Wallonie to 9 (and also +1 in Flanders?), and slightly reduce Saar (-1 ??)

[caranorn]

Currently, the resources DB has 8 coal for Belgium (incl 6 in Wallonie), 4 for Lorraine and 7 in Saar (each mine extracts 2 coal from each resource)

I'll beef up a bit Wallonie to 9 (and also +1 in Flanders?), and slightly reduce Saar (-1 ??)

I hadn't noticed the one resource in Luxembourg (probably unjustified unless it represents wood transformed to wood coal or directly sued as fuel). I also included the two resources in the PoN province of Meuse in the count for Lorraine...

Anyhow, for a quick fix I'd reccomend giving Lorraine just a single working mine at game start (that means an initial production of 4 units of coal until the railroad there is completed), likewise a single working mine in Sarre (initial production of 6) and add a third to Wallonie (initial production of 24)...

Concerning the total possible production sites of coal in these regions I'm not sure yet. The massive production in Lorraine only started after WWII long after PoN's time, thefore that peak should be disregarded. Which would mean Lorraine (including Meuse) should have no where near the capacity for increase than the Sarre and Belgium (France was largely an importer of coal and Lorraine was secondary to other regions in its production at the time). Anyhow, around 1920 Belgian production seems to have been close to 25 million tons/year (including Flanders), Sarre before the war achieved 17 million tons/year and Lorraine no more than 5 million tons/year. Of those three Sarre was already at or near maximal production as can be seen in one chart. Lorraine still had a lot to exploit, but it's peak was far in the future. Belgium could still raise it's production a bit but was close to the limit. So assuming we use Sarre as the basis and assume the current PoN settings are correct we'd have a maximum of exploitation sites of 11 in all of Belgium (your proposal would achieve that), 7 in Sarre (current situation as I used the Sarre as base) and no more than 3 (max 4) in all of Lorraine.

But I just also found a single number for the french department of the North which is 27 million tons/year in 1914 (so Nord is currently under represented, any possible production removed from Lorraine might be added to Nord)...

Maybe one should wait a bit for major changes though. I personally don't udnerstand PoN sufficiently at this time, particularly concerning technological inovations that might still infuence efficiency.

P.S.: I just found these numbers for global coal production: 172 million tons/year in 1865 and 1216 million tons/year in 1913. I will continue looking into this...

[Baris]

Many thanks for writing events on additional minors.
Though coal production rates looks scary!
Maybe I should try to achieve at least diplomatic victory with OE ! or is it not?

[John Sedgwick]

I think this is a great idea and I'm definitely interested in helping out, though I can't make any steadfast commitments at the moment. It's my understanding that by modifying the game we can have a maximum of 18 selectable nations including the current "majors" - it would be nice to eventually have a way to select any country, but for now 18 should be more than enough and allows us to focus our efforts.

So the question becomes, what 10 additional minors should we focus on first? To the countries listed in the OP, I would probably remove Denmark (no offense to the Danes) and add the following suggestions:

Belgium
Netherlands
Ottoman Empire
Spain
Sweden
Portugal
China
Mexico
Brazil
Siam

I have ranked them according to my rough estimation of their relative prestige in 1850, and in order from least to most challenging. 10th spot was a toss-up between Argentina and Siam for me - I went with Siam since I had so much fun trying to get "civilized" in Vicky/Ricky, which brings me to my next point. Maybe we should consider redefining victory for minor powers, and think about challenging but achievable medium- and long-term missions for each nation, like "Modernize Siam" or "Expel the Barbarian Foreigners" or whatever.

In any case, I'd like to see at least two of the minors be "uncivilized" powers - China definitely belongs on this short list; the other could be Persia, Egypt, Siam - any country that conceivably had a shot at successfully modernizing in this time frame.

And of course I'd like to play Canada too, but could be a separate project - Project Dominions, perhaps

[Romtos]

John Sedgwick, I like your list. The only possible change I could imagine is doing neither Siam nor Argentina, but Persia instead as number 10. It would allow for a modernization effort and 'expel foreign barbarians' like Siam, but it wouldn't interfere with Indo-Chinese colonization efforts.

[Hohenlohe]

I think this is a great idea and I'm definitely interested in helping out, though I can't make any steadfast commitments at the moment. It's my understanding that by modifying the game we can have a maximum of 18 selectable nations including the current "majors" - it would be nice to eventually have a way to select any country, but for now 18 should be more than enough and allows us to focus our efforts.

So the question becomes, what 10 additional minors should we focus on first? To the countries listed in the OP, I would probably remove Denmark (no offense to the Danes) and add the following suggestions:

Belgium
Netherlands
Ottoman Empire
Spain
Sweden
Portugal
China
Mexico
Brazil
Siam

I have ranked them according to my rough estimation of their relative prestige in 1850, and in order from least to most challenging. 10th spot was a toss-up between Argentina and Siam for me - I went with Siam since I had so much fun trying to get "civilized" in Vicky/Ricky, which brings me to my next point. Maybe we should consider redefining victory for minor powers, and think about challenging but achievable medium- and long-term missions for each nation, like "Modernize Siam" or "Expel the Barbarian Foreigners" or whatever.

In any case, I'd like to see at least two of the minors be "uncivilized" powers - China definitely belongs on this short list; the other could be Persia, Egypt, Siam - any country that conceivably had a shot at successfully modernizing in this time frame.

And of course I'd like to play Canada too, but could be a separate project - Project Dominions, perhaps

First my personal respect to this project but I personally would prefer to give Paraguay a definite chance starting 1850 because it was better developed in many ways than any other country in South America.
It was not only the first southamerican state which abolished slavery but also the first which built the first railways and the first industrial manufactories sofar known. The literacy was really good equivalent to any other regional nation because they built additionally around 400 elementary schools for the lower and middle classes.

Thus I would try to substitute either Sweden or Portugal with Paraguay as a minor nation. Brazil and especially Argentinia developed in a more modern way shortly after the great Triple Alliance War from 1865-1870 but simply not before that timeline, only Paraguay did so...

I personally would even substitute Sardinia with another minor nation like Egypt which tried in that era from around 1840 until 1870 a modernization but declined due to a decent state debt which it makes dependant from French and mainly British banks...

Sofar my opinion...

I would try to make some events belonging to Paraguay...

greetings

Hohenlohe

[Romtos]

Ditching S-P? Heresy!

If anything, the inclusion of Two Sicilies would make for an interesting struggle over the Italian peninsula.

[Franciscus]

(...)
Thus I would try to substitute either Sweden or Portugal with Paraguay as a minor nation. Brazil and especially Argentinia developed in a more modern way shortly after the great Triple Alliance War from 1865-1870 but simply not before that timeline, only Paraguay did so...
(...)
Hohenlohe

Ditching my poor Portugal ?? Why ??

IMHO, playing Portugal may have some interest, even more so because PhilThib has already developed some events for this nation. There were some interesting things happening: Colonial development, The British ultimatum/"PinK" map, and the ever present (and not quite yet realized :bonk objective of modernizing the country.

I think that in the end, there is no need to make big plans or commitments right now. As I said, I have already corrected some minor map/naming mistakes related to Portugal, and I will try to continue improving things related to my country. I can not really commit myself now to any serious modding effort, maybe in the future. I will try to first learn how to play the game and understand how things work.

In the end, probaly there is no need to be overly worried about the 18 nation limit. Each one of us that is interested in modding one or more countries should do so, and then we all will benefit from the end result.

Best regards

[Baris]

Im not sure about Paraguay(it seems she was able to build railroads without bankers finance,that is unique) but OE,Egypt and maybe Persia have enormous debts to bankers,capitalists etc..
I think first mission of Ottomans should be clear the debt. AFAIK Cremian war was the the main reason(Maybe Russia should not be in the list of playable nations ) why Ottomans need so much cash to re-build army and navy. Even war is won, dept of Ottomans to great powers prevented all kind of social,economical reform funding. Add to that janissaries uprising and refuse to be under command. Ottomans had great difficulties to surpress uprising all over the palace at later dates.

When I have the game tomorrow, I will have a look at the events in OE and maybe I can also find some events for Egypt. Though Im not good at modding, all I can do is reading battle logs.

[John Sedgwick]

@Hohenlohe: I certainly haven't forgotten about Paraguay, and I'd like to see it included as well, I was simply grading them on the rubric of their success in this period (which I understand is why Japan and S-P are included among the "majors").

@Franciscus: I agree that we shouldn't be too worried about the 18 nation limit, and everyone should work on what they're interested in. I just thought it'd be a useful thought experiment to rank our "top 10" minors to get an idea of what are the most important ones to include right off the bat for a major "minor" project.

@Baris: agreed on the "Clear the Debt" mission, I think that's a great idea. I imagine that might apply to Mexico and some others as well...

[Hohenlohe]

I do not want to exclude Portugal because it has had a very rich colonial history and in those years it would be interested to see what would be possible ingame...I prefer to exclude Sweden because besides exporting nice blonde women to America in that era there was nothing special or have I forgotten something...*hmmmh* there exists something like a games company nowadays but in those days I do not know how Sweden has influenced anything besides Dynamite or the Ericson Ships propeller/screw...*harhar*

I will try to get my hands on this game as soon as possible either tomorrow morning or evening and then I will start with the Ottomans without any modification simply to see how it develops.
I think that it would be very nice to see how I would be able to hold myself in the upcoming Crimean War.
As this War will start around 1853 if I remember correctly I should try to develop my little industry then if possible to gain more income...

But for now I am still waiting for the game's release and at the following weekend I will be very occupied with playing PON...*grin* I hope that I do not forget any date - was there not some date with a young and nice blonde thuringian woman...?? *mmhh* *pffhh* I think there are something better than playing with "girls* I really need some challenge...*grin* and my computer would not prevent me from playing...*grin*

greetings to all gamesmaniacs...

Hohenlohe

[caranorn]

In case you hadn't noticed, the game is already up for sale here at Ageod. I'm downloading it right now...

[Hohenlohe]

In case you hadn't noticed, the game is already up for sale here at Ageod. I'm downloading it right now...

*AAARRGGHH* How could you do that to me...I have still pre-ordered the box version via Amazon and the digital version via GG and now you tell us it is available on the AGEOD Webshop...*aaarrrggh**bitten into the computers desk* *ohmydear!!*

I will not again order it although I like to support AGEOD. I would do so only if a friend with a GG account is willing to play it...*sigh* then I can gift him the GG version...

greetings

a crazy looking Hohenlohe...

[caranorn]

Philippe was it intentional that in 1.01e Wallonie now only has 8 coal resources and no other resources? I don't recall the exact composition from 1.01, but there were at least three different resource types (iirc coal, iron and wheat, probably also nitrates)...

[PhilThib]

Absolutely not....grrr....something has probably gone wrong in the patch (or may be the resources are covered by city/country sprite)...will check tomorrow

[hgilmer]

I thought I would launch this initiative for those interested.

The goal would be simple, to add events and data for the following minor countries to make them more playable.

Netherlands
Belgium
Ottoman Empire
Sweden
Denmark
Portugal
Spain

Any takers for this somewhat ambitious project? I could of course do research on Sweden and I guess there is one candidate for OE but any others?

I'd look up stuff for Ottoman Empire but don't count on me to be the sole investigator. I think it would be interesting.