The Demo

[Pocus]

it really pains me to say this but i feel somewhat disappointed with the demo.

my previous experience of AGEOD games are ACW and NCP. the 1st thing that struck me was the map. it just looks way to cluttered with all those city+tile improvement icons, they also look to big in general, defo not easy on the eye.

the terrain also looks poor compared to the gorgeous ACW+NCP ones. it just looks really low res and lackin as much detail. i just loaded up NCP and the difference is night n day. then there the lag issue as well which is annoyin to say the least.

even the inaccessible parts of the map look bad, just plane brown land, not nice. im also gettin blocky textures sometime when i reload which includes most of europe covered in white. it defo doesnt have the pinache of the previous game maps.

when i click on a city and hover the mouse over its card the population class details appear in the bottom right of the screen yet when i move the mouse to see what they are they disappear? is there another way to see those detail?

i invited a friend to download the demo and the 1st thing he noticed was the tutorial text overlaps the text box makin it hard to read. i persevered, he didnt.

the gameplay features look top notch and i know theres a great game in here but it hasnt been a good experience considerin how much i was lookin forward to it.

could a lot of these issues be down to it bein a demo and things bein missin?

i hope so.


Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 S775 2.66ghz 4mb Cache 1333FSB (OC'd to 3400ghz)
4GB DD3 RAM
GTZ 260 1GB Video card
creative xfi extreme sound card
win 7 64 bit

If the text overlap, it can mean that you are not in 96 DPI, PON only really works for 96 DPI.

As for map quality, remember also that the map is hand drawn and is uber-huge compared to even NCP, so we had to make choice so that it can run on all systems. This is not a 3D map, so the memory usage is higher.

[cato12]

McNaughton,

is this honestly meant to represent winter? it looks like textures are missing, will the full game be any better?





this is the same view in NCP




and your tellin me the 1st picture doesnt look poor? i find it an eyesore. i know i can turn of the winter map but why should i need to. even little snow clouds wouldve been better.

and i dont buy the argument that graphic quality had to be cut for performance issues. its a static map in a turn based game. and the graphics from NCP are hardly groundbreaking but they miles better than this. most of us here have adequate amounts of memory and even for those who dont, why not have an option to lower graphical quality.

the turn lengths are an issue as well, ive read reports of turns takin upwards of 4 minutes 60 odd turns in. i shudder to think what it will be like 500+ turns in or indeed late game.

on a positive note, the more im playin the demo the less lag is an issue. guess im just getting used to it along with using the keys to move around so the lag is no gamebreaker.

i was gonna pre-order but i might wait to see some reports of what late game speeds are like before pulling the trigger.

normally when i play a demo for a game i want it sells me it 99.9% of the time, not so with this. i do have a keen interest in these types of games though so i guess il keep plugging away with it but im having lots of 'what if' moments.

if i was a casual strategy gamer or new to AGEOD games the tutorial would defo have put me off.

just sayin.

[cato12]

yep i do indeed have my DPI at a a higher level as i like bigger text, good to know thats what the problem was anyways. strange that i dont get this problem with NCP though.

i was probably a bit hasty with my post, it was really just 1st impressions and i shouldve waited a few more days before posting my thoughts.

im gonna play a bit more over the weekend, ive already started to jot down a few things that could be better with the GUI, mainly regarding finding information easier.

my biggest concern with the map was with the winter textures as i thought that what the final release was gonna be like, good to know its only cos its the demo.

[OneArmedMexican]

While PoN seems to be a fine game with original concepts, I have to admit this demo has left me somewhat disappointed.

I posted a thread about complexity some time ago. In a way it was misleading. The real issue isn't complexity (which can be a lot of fun) but explaining. And indeed PoN doesn't make things easy on its players.

Two examples:

1) When a factory is shut down due to lack of ressources required to run it, why doesn't that message tell me which ressource was lacking? That should be easy to implement, but instead I have to seek in the asset balance for the most probably explanation.

2) In the economic building submode, it would be helpful if the tooltip would list the operational costs beside the building costs for new productions sites. How am I supposed to know if I can even operate a factory if the game doesn't tell me what that will require? Admittedly, the manual will tell me but that is not the point.

A tutorial on diplomacy would have been nice, too. The manual says next to nothing on the subject, neither do the tooltips. Here are some of the questions, I was lacking answers to (or was to dumb to find them):

- In how much change to relations will certain options result?
- I tried the US in the GC. Scrolling over Cherokee and Dakota units, it seems the US is at war with them, or aren't they? If I am why can I still declare war on them? And if I am not at war, why can I attack there troops?

Some buttons in this game are tiny. I have never complained about something like this before. But take a look at the button that is supposed to close trade windows. Smallest button I have ever seen in a video game. At least, I learned very fast what the shortcut is.

The manual: Page numbers would be nice. Also it would be helpful if the manual showed and explained how to change things instead of explaining them rather abstract. Here is an example: The manual emphasizes how important the management of the popolation is, but how can I do that and where do I find information on how my population feels? The answer isn't in that section of the manual dealing with the population but rather in the list of shortcuts (F6).

This game is full of great ideas but somehow it goes out of its way to be as inaccessible as possible. This game will be loved by some but many others will get frustrated and hit uninstall. What a pity.

And now I will discredit myself completely, I am actually missing complexity in one departement: the military! One of the finest pieces in AGE games has been the way they have handeled order of battle (at least since NCP). Marching to the sound of guns, the capability of army commanders influencing the performance of their subordinates. Searching for the best composition of divisions. I sincerely miss these things.

Still, congratulations on this mammoth of a game, AGEOD! I hope you will regard this post less as a critique but rather as propositions on how to improve your product.

[marcusjm]

I would have been surprised if they nailed it all with 1.0 personally.

So far I am quite amazed that it works as well as it works, there are so many things that can go wrong with so much complexity involved.

The things mentioned above should at least mostly be fixable with patches.

Given how a typical Paradox 1.0 game is, this is a remarkable achievement .

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Groomy]

In "Pride of Nations Demo Version\Docs" there is another manual with no page numbers. Maybe he speak about this manual.

Will there be a french manual in final version ?

[OneArmedMexican]

In "Pride of Nations Demo Version\Docs" there is another manual with no page numbers. Maybe he speak about this manual.

Yes, that is the one I was talking about. Thank you!

Perhaps you need to look a little closer or set your adobe reader to a different display mode.

Examples

Lower Left Corner of pg 6:

[ATTACH]15101[/ATTACH]

Lower Right Corner of pg 7:

[ATTACH]15102[/ATTACH]

And dear Gray, would you mind thinking twice before you just assume other people are morons. I get it that you don't like me critisizing certain aspects of PoN. But I believe my critique was constructive. No need to get dismissive.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Franciscus]

The manual that comes in the zip package (equal to the downladable manual) has a two-columns format, page numbers and generally a better look than the one in the Docs subfolder of the demo instalation, that has (apparently) the same text but with poorer formatting, no page numbers, etc.

Regards

[willgamer]

The manual that comes in the zip package (equal to the downladable manual) has a two-columns format, page numbers and generally a better look than the one in the Docs subfolder of the demo instalation, that has (apparently) the same text but with poorer formatting, no page numbers, etc.

Regards

However, if you are going to PRINT anything, the one that comes with the demo is far superior. Much cleaner and better page alignment. Best of all, it won't use your color ink to print the sidebars on each page.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[McNaughton]

Yes, that is the one I was talking about. Thank you!

One thing of note with Adobe PDF readers are that there is a pages tab at the top left. This shows the page numbering as well as a quick reference to which page is which. The downloadable manual did not have the numbers referenced to this system (i.e., Legal was said to be on page one, but realistically on page 6). However, the manual with the demo (I believe) is aligned properly.

I suppose that if you want to print off the pages this will be an annoyance, although I am pretty sure that there would be a function in your print properties to apply a watermark of page numbering.

As a teacher of elementary students I am fully aware about how to provide realistically useful feedback that will be listened to and followed. One thing to make sure is that you do not overload someone with negative feedback. By human nature they get defensive (indeed, you got awfully defensive wity Gray when he criticized you about your ability to read a PDF).

Realistically, you have to ask yourself what is your goal? Next, ask yourself are you going to achieve it by this method?

Remember, this is a lot of work that people have spent a lot of time upon, and to read one short sentence of praise, and paragraph after paragraph of what can sometimes be seen as somewhat 'petty' or 'opinionative' criticism it can really get people to respond negatively. You are on the Internet too, where people can easily come off as snooty or dismissive. I really do not think that is your goal, but it can be seen that way.

[Durk]

McNaughton,

Seriously? I always find it interesting to work with someone who designs a web page but never returns to see how a new user experiences the product. They are always amazed that the novice users cannot find all this wonderful content.

PoN shows a lot of serious work. However, OneArmedMexican manages to illustrate some key concerns. I finished the tutorial and tried to play some of the game. So many issues are not addressed in the manual or in the game interface. OneArmedMexican gave a short list of some essential issues.

I am a fairly experienced gamer. Finding out how to conduct a simply diplomatic move, pretty rugged.

Do not dismiss suggestion because of 'all the hard work,' Playing and suggesting are hard work, too.

[DooberGuy]

And dear Gray, would you mind thinking twice before you just assume other people are morons. I get it that you don't like me critisizing certain aspects of PoN. But I believe my critique was constructive. No need to get dismissive.

I don't think he was trying to be dismissive, I think Gray had the manual right in front of him and saw that it had page numbers on it. Since he "knew" it had page numbers, then he had to think of another explanation and I think he found a fairly reasonable one. This just goes to show that it's not what we don't know that hurts us. It's what we know that just aint so.

[DooberGuy]

just my 2 cents

[Durk]

DooberGuy
Not talking about Gray. He saw the issue of page numbers. Talking about McNaughton's misreading of OneArmedMexican's suggestion to make the game more accessible.
Might take a well written manual to play the game, should not be guess work.

[Hohenlohe]

One thing of note with Adobe PDF readers are that there is a pages tab at the top left. This shows the page numbering as well as a quick reference to which page is which. The downloadable manual did not have the numbers referenced to this system (i.e., Legal was said to be on page one, but realistically on page 6). However, the manual with the demo (I believe) is aligned properly.

I suppose that if you want to print off the pages this will be an annoyance, although I am pretty sure that there would be a function in your print properties to apply a watermark of page numbering.

As a teacher of elementary students I am fully aware about how to provide realistically useful feedback that will be listened to and followed. One thing to make sure is that you do not overload someone with negative feedback. By human nature they get defensive (indeed, you got awfully defensive wity Gray when he criticized you about your ability to read a PDF).

Realistically, you have to ask yourself what is your goal? Next, ask yourself are you going to achieve it by this method?

Remember, this is a lot of work that people have spent a lot of time upon, and to read one short sentence of praise, and paragraph after paragraph of what can sometimes be seen as somewhat 'petty' or 'opinionative' criticism it can really get people to respond negatively. You are on the Internet too, where people can easily come off as snooty or dismissive. I really do not think that is your goal, but it can be seen that way.

+1

edit: I hope that we all will be able to behave more politely with each other...

[Gray_Lensman]

removed...

[Franciscus]

However, if you are going to PRINT anything, the one that comes with the demo is far superior. Much cleaner and better page alignment. Best of all, it won't use your color ink to print the sidebars on each page.

I used to think exactly like you. iPad changed my life forever, though

@ McNaughton: Relax. I only hope you will have to read a lot more critcism. It is also a sign that people care about your game, and it comes with "the business".
If the game has bugs (as all have) and no one cares, THAT's when you should start worrying

[caranorn]

1) When a factory is shut down due to lack of ressources required to run it, why doesn't that message tell me which ressource was lacking? That should be easy to implement, but instead I have to seek in the asset balance for the most probably explanation.

Just want to second this. In my two games as Sardinia-Piedmont (decided that was the easiest country to learn the game) I had multiple factories shut down at the same time on occasion. In those situations it was almost impossible to figure out what caused which factory to stop production. So all I could do was to set all factories back to production and hope things would settle down by next turn...

P.S.: Now that I think about it, the multiple factories might have been due to lack of capital (after a big investment) rather than a regular resource. Having the cause added to the message would have made me certain of this within seconds and not speculate about it 12 hours later :-) ...

[Comtedemeighan]

For those with scrolling issues I have found that clicking the Limit map loading in the System Menu has dramatically increased the speed of the map scrolling. After figuring this out I am now able to enjoy the demo. I really like the colonial aspect so far. I figured out how to build stuff now I just gotta figure out how to get the economy going. Yeah I know read the manual but I'm too impatient for that Looking good so far guys

[NefariousKoel]

I would have been surprised if they nailed it all with 1.0 personally.

So far I am quite amazed that it works as well as it works, there are so many things that can go wrong with so much complexity involved.

The things mentioned above should at least mostly be fixable with patches.

Given how a typical Paradox 1.0 game is, this is a remarkable achievement .

Yes, indeed.

I have faith in the AGEOD guys fixing up the little things that need to be tweaked and added to.

Love the game. I find that learning with the demo is nice, but I'm afraid to invest the large amount of time for more than 3 turns or so, because I'll get cut off after 12 turns. I've hit the "Buy Now" on the startup screen a few times. We wants it now!

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[McNaughton]

McNaughton,

Seriously? I always find it interesting to work with someone who designs a web page but never returns to see how a new user experiences the product. They are always amazed that the novice users cannot find all this wonderful content.

PoN shows a lot of serious work. However, OneArmedMexican manages to illustrate some key concerns. I finished the tutorial and tried to play some of the game. So many issues are not addressed in the manual or in the game interface. OneArmedMexican gave a short list of some essential issues.

I am a fairly experienced gamer. Finding out how to conduct a simply diplomatic move, pretty rugged.

Do not dismiss suggestion because of 'all the hard work,' Playing and suggesting are hard work, too.

I used to think exactly like you. iPad changed my life forever, though

@ McNaughton: Relax. I only hope you will have to read a lot more critcism. It is also a sign that people care about your game, and it comes with "the business".
If the game has bugs (as all have) and no one cares, THAT's when you should start worrying

Dear Durk and Franciscus,

I don't think that I said a thing in any of my posts that comment about the detail of the manual or the tutorials, or that OneArmedMexican was wrong to post any criticism. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I believe my comment had been upon if you use the page feature of the adobe system you can track down the page numbering (I thought I was helping him to get an immediate solution to the page numbering, instead of him having to wait for any possible update which could take weeks, months, or never). I did not say he was incorrect about him bringing up criticism of the content of the manual (or the game), but, that to be careful that it ends up to be the bulk of your commentary if he wants it to be looked at.

In regards to cato12's comments, I do admit I was irked at opinion being posed as fact. While I truly believe he does think that the AACW maps were better, it does not mean that anything different is indeed a bug, mistake, or error. Or, that he does not have the right to express himself, but what really is going to be the result of this expression (will the map change?). In regards to the text issues, indeed, bring it up if it is affecting gameplay, as well as to discuss things that are fixable (nobody is going to remake the map at this point, plus it would be a total disaster for gameplay scrolling should a memory-intensive map be implemented).

Remember, your goal is to get change, correct? I am just trying to provide 'a suggestion' as to get this goal to be successful. Or, do we just have a community where some people can provide criticism, and others cannot?

[OneArmedMexican]

Since I started this little mess, I guess it is my turn to apologize. I am sorry, some of you found my original post harsh. I wrote it after three somewhat frustrating hours with the demo. Some of it was polemic. I can be that way if I want to emphasize a point.

Dear McNaughton, I might have structured it better or reduced it to fewer points. But then again, the developpers of PoN are very smart people, I don't think I overwhelmed them (if they even read my post). Nevertheless, I mixed up different things that aren't necessarily interconnected (critique and praise, disappointment and suggestions). Not the best approach to get a point across.

Can we please let the adobe/missing page number silliness behind? Yes, I critisized the missing pages numbers but I wrote a lot more about ways to improve the manual's content which is far more important.

As for Gray, I wouldn't have reacted this annoyed if it had been the first time that he wrote a rather dismissive post after he didn't like what I wrote. He has done and is doing incredible work for AGE games and we all owe him for that. As for what I think about his way of handling himself in this thread I better keep my mouth shut.

The point of my original post was to point a finger on some of the things I perceive as weaknesses in PoN. I tried to be constructive, by making specific suggestions for improvements, I tried to be precise by giving examples. So please, can we discuss these things instead of exchanging insults.

[marcusjm]

I am sure Pocus and PhilThib reads them OneArmedMexican, like Gary correctly put it, they are the designers, the rest of us are relegated to playing their creation .

I re-iterate my point, we have to understand that this is 1.0, there are so many things that could have wrong. In my book the key points they got right and the rest like most of your points, can be fixed now or later.

I think no 1 should be to improve performance, then interface improvements.

[PhilThib]

All your remarks are welcome and duly noted, don't worry...it just now for us (especially Pocus) to calculate how many decades we shall need to implement them

[Generalisimo]

1) When a factory is shut down due to lack of ressources required to run it, why doesn't that message tell me which ressource was lacking? That should be easy to implement, but instead I have to seek in the asset balance for the most probably explanation.

I can go around in circles and tell you a lot ot things...that will not lead anywhere
So, the quick answer is quite simple... it is in the TODO list, but we didn't have time to implement it yet.
On contrary to what you think, it IS NOT simple.... if it was simple it would have been already done.

2) In the economic building submode, it would be helpful if the tooltip would list the operational costs beside the building costs for new productions sites. How am I supposed to know if I can even operate a factory if the game doesn't tell me what that will require? Admittedly, the manual will tell me but that is not the point.

Again, the cost depend on a lot of factors, that you are not aware of yet, because you are new to the game...
Also, for example, the final production of a structure for example, is deeply tied to the region where you drop it...
Again, all this sounds like a trivial thing that should have been already done... but it isn't, because it is not that simple.

The rest of the suggestions are good...

[OneArmedMexican]

I can go around in circles and tell you a lot ot things...that will not lead anywhere
So, the quick answer is quite simple... it is in the TODO list, but we didn't have time to implement it yet.
On contrary to what you think, it IS NOT simple.... if it was simple it would have been already done.

I really didn't mean to belittle your work or the challenges you face. From my (admittedly limited) knowledge about modding AGE games, it appeared to me that implementing the change I proposed should be possible with an acceptable amount of work. But I may be wrong.

Again, the cost depend on a lot of factors, that you are not aware of yet, because you are new to the game...
Also, for example, the final production of a structure for example, is deeply tied to the region where you drop it...
Again, all this sounds like a trivial thing that should have been already done... but it isn't, because it is not that simple.

You misunderstood me here. I am not talking about the projected output of a new factory (although that would be interesting, too). I am talking about the amount of ressources the new factory will need to stay operational (i.e. to avoid being shut down).

If I want to know how many ressources the factory will produce, I can simply place it and cancel the building process immediately if its output is too low for my taste.