Complexity - too much?

[OneArmedMexican]

Please don't misunderstand me, I love AGEOD games and have been playing them for several years.

But .. yes there is a "but" ... the more I read about PoN my anticipation gets increasingly overshadowed by the fear that the great AGEOD team has gone too far this time.
I skimmed through the features Pocus wrote over the last week and took a glance at the new maunual and one impression stuck:

This game appears to be incredibly complex.

Basically it takes the detailed military system from former AGE games and adds economic, diplomatic and colonial systems of the same complexity. Add to that a great campaign featuring > 1600 turns and you got a monstrosity that might even overwhelm hard-core strategy players. A PBEM would take years; even a single player campaign might take months. It just sounds too much!

I would bet that once PoN is out the Paradox forum will be filled with people frustrated that they don't get this game. And how can you win new customers when they have to surmount a sky-high learning-curve?

I sincerely hope some of the beta-testers can convince me otherwise, but for now PoN has me worried.

[vaalen]

Please don't misunderstand me, I love AGEOD games and have been playing them for several years.

But .. yes there is a "but" ... the more I read about PoN my anticipation gets increasingly overshadowed by the fear that the great AGEOD team has gone too far this time.
I skimmed through the features Pocus wrote over the last week and took a glance at the new maunual and one impression stuck:

This game appears to be incredibly complex.

Basically it takes the detailed military system from former AGE games and adds economic, diplomatic and colonial systems of the same complexity. Add to that a great campaign featuring > 1600 turns and you got a monstrosity that might even overwhelm hard-core strategy players. A PBEM would take years; even a single player campaign might take months. It just sounds too much!

I would bet that once PoN is out the Paradox forum will be filled with people frustrated that they don't get this game. And how can you win new customers when they have to surmount a sky-high learning-curve?

I sincerely hope some of the beta-testers can convince me otherwise, but for now PoN has me worried.

After reading the manual, it seems to me that the other non military systems are much simpler to use that I would have guessed. And the military system seems to be a bit less complex as well. I am not worried.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[DooberGuy]

I understand his concerns, but I'm sure AGEOD's had the same conversations when they developed the game. We obviously won't know if they pulled it off until the game comes out, so we'll just have to trust that they did. If they do make a game with the military depth of an AACW and the economic/diplomatic/political depth of a paradox game...

[caranorn]

First of all I think to veternas of Ageod games it will be easy to learn PoN. There is a lot of new stuff, and going by the manual some changes to the old too. But it's manageable...

Where I do indeed foresee some problems is for entirely new players. I hope there are a few learning scenarios in the game. That is one or two scenarios focussed entirely on small wars with no economy, colonisation and diplomacy involved. Likewise a few scenarios focusing on just the economy colonisation and diplomacy. Essentially breaking the learning up into a couplke of different chapters. There will still be discontent players I'm sure, but I don't think that can be avoided with a complex game (and it was always clear that PoN would be complex)...

[marcusjm]

Well I am still waiting AGEOD to develop the REAL Europa Universalis(ie based on the boardgame).

If you think this game is complicated then you haven't seen much. Try Scorched Earth by GDW .

I enjoy games like Fruit Ninja on Ipad but I wouldn't really wan't to play such simple games on my PC.

[Franciscus]

Bring it on !!

I must say, 2011 is looking to be one of the finest years in my PC gaming history.

- PoN is surely going to be THE grand strategy game to rule them all
- Les Grognards is, to me, the best (Napoleonic) tactical wargame ever made, and it is continually improving.
- The Witcher 2 is absolutely amazing, one of the best (if not the best) PC RPG ever made.

- and...GOG keeps releasing gems of the past for our pleasure


I am very happy

[OneArmedMexican]

Where I do indeed foresee some problems is for entirely new players. I hope there are a few learning scenarios in the game. That is one or two scenarios focussed entirely on small wars with no economy, colonisation and diplomacy involved. Likewise a few scenarios focusing on just the economy colonisation and diplomacy. Essentially breaking the learning up into a couplke of different chapters. There will still be discontent players I'm sure, but I don't think that can be avoided with a complex game (and it was always clear that PoN would be complex)...

That was exactly my point. PoN has the potential to attracted a broader fanbase than games like RUS or RoP. But if it scares away new players with mountains of details that won't happen.

One thing that looks promising is that there seem to be options that reduce the level of complexity.

But perhaps I shouldn't complain, AGEOD games were always hard-core strategy titles. And that is why I like them.

[von Sachsen]

That was exactly my point. PoN has the potential to attracted a broader fanbase than games like RUS or RoP. But if it scares away new players with mountains of details that won't happen.

On the other hand.....$20.

[Baris]

After reading the manual, it seems to me that the other non military systems are much simpler to use that I would have guessed. And the military system seems to be a bit less complex as well. I am not worried.

...less complex then maybe RUS and ROP where there are approx. 1600- 1900 regions and disorganized units to get organized by a 2-3 faction. I agree completely.

That was exactly my point. PoN has the potential to attracted a broader fanbase than games like RUS or RoP. But if it scares away new players with mountains of details that won't happen.

I think paradox players are more likely the new players where they are somehow familiar with the increased(?) micromanagement.

On a side note Narwhal's ROP Pbem AAR viewed 15000 times in Paradox forum. That is a good statistic.
From that statistic it wont be wrong to think PON(once they introduced with the engine) has the potential to increase the interest even more to Cheka and Frederick the Great if they think game is long(for Pbem) not because of complexity. But there is always single player mode in PON.

[OneArmedMexican]

Good arguments Baris. Let's hope you are right.

And yes, Paradox players might indeed be a good fit for PoN. After all that company has produced some games that aren't exactly easily accessible.

[JaguarUSF]

I think it if were real-time then, yes, there would be too much to handle.
But honestly, the amount of management required each turn is quite low, as you only need to do each thing (move or create units, diplomacy and crises, build production facilities, place colonial events, adjust trade or move merchant fleets, research) once every couple of turns at the most.

[gekkoguy82]

Compared to War in the Pacific I'm sure PoN will be a walk in the park

[beatoangelico]

I hope that the AI can handle all the systems, that's my biggest concern. As for the new players, I think they need an improved interface compared to the previous ageod games.

[marcusjm]

I hope that the AI can handle all the systems, that's my biggest concern. As for the new players, I think they need an improved interface compared to the previous ageod games.

The interface is not that bad, it takes some learning but not anything massive.
It is in the same area as games like TOAW, War in the East.

The AI is my biggest concern too but I would be naive if I expected more than mediocre AI before at least 3-4 patches.