Siege Discussion

[SleeStak]

Corps-level artillery will only fire if there's support frontage left over after divisional artillery fires, right?

My technical knowledge of the frontage rules are a little vague but it is my understanding that Corps and Army artillery always fire at the opponents strongest unit. Artillery is a support element and does not compete with infantry for frontage. In the link from my last post, Jarkko suggests (in post #38) that 40 artillery units is the best number to bring in a corps engagement when you have large numbers of infantry. I suspect that this really helps in clear/prairie/open in good weather with a good corps leader (all things that increase frontage and range of the engagement).

From my own experience, bringing large amounts of corps and army artillery to a battle (and since it is going to fire, make the corps/army artillery your best, longest ranged pieces) significantly improves the outcomes of battle. I'm inclined to move all of my artillery into the Corps/Army stack and make divisions 15 infantry elements with a cavalry and a sharpshooter element, maybe a marine in one of the corps divisions to fill out the infantry role. That would leave 10 cps for corps artillery which would be alot support for my armies.

[Cromagnonman]

For instance, did you know that corps artillery all fire at your opponents in combat. I didn't until I read it in the forum and tried it out in game. Including your very best artillery as individual artillery units in your corp stack significantly increase the amount of firepower you focus on an opponent. I read a recommendation in a post some time ago that your corps aught to consist of two division and as much corp artillery as you can stuff into the stack to maximize its firepower.

Corps-level artillery will only fire if there's support frontage left over after divisional artillery fires, right?

[Cromagnonman]

My technical knowledge of the frontage rules are a little vague but it is my understanding that Corps and Army artillery always fire at the opponents strongest unit. Artillery is a support element and does not compete with infantry for frontage. In the link from my last post, Jarkko suggests (in post #38) that 40 artillery units is the best number to bring in a corps engagement when you have large numbers of infantry. I suspect that this really helps in clear/prairie/open in good weather with a good corps leader (all things that increase frontage and range of the engagement).

From my own experience, bringing large amounts of corps and army artillery to a battle (and since it is going to fire, make the corps/army artillery your best, longest ranged pieces) significantly improves the outcomes of battle. I'm inclined to move all of my artillery into the Corps/Army stack and make divisions 15 infantry elements with a cavalry and a sharpshooter element, maybe a marine in one of the corps divisions to fill out the infantry role. That would leave 10 cps for corps artillery which would be alot support for my armies.

I'm not sure that 40 artillery elements is historical for any ACW army, much less corps. It is definitely food for thought, though. I rarely leave artillery outide the division, probably residual CP paranoia as well as taking advantage of the division-level bonuses (sharpshooters, leader rating & ability bonuses, etc).

[dolphin]

Originally Posted by SleeStak
Artillery is a support element and does not compete with infantry for frontage. In the link from my last post, Jarkko suggests (in post #38) that 40 artillery units is the best number to bring in a corps engagement when you have large numbers of infantry.

I'm inclined to move all of my artillery into the Corps/Army stack and make divisions 15 infantry elements with a cavalry and a sharpshooter element, maybe a marine in one of the corps divisions to fill out the infantry role. That would leave 10 cps for corps artillery which would be alot support for my armies.

Reading Jarkko's post I am reading into what he is saying about 40 artillary elements includes artillary elements in each of the 3 divisions of your corp up to x4 each which of course can be elements inherent in an infantry brigade as opposed to the stand alone artillary batteries the best of which should all be in your Army HQ (Not Corp HQ). Rather than go x16 Infantry elements per division leaving no room for divisional artillary elements I would think it better to add a 4th Infantry division in your corp. Of course that only makes sense if you do not have enough stand alone artillary battery's to fill out your Corp HQ after filling up your Army HQ.

Jarkko was not suggesting x40 artillary elements be used in your Army/Corp HQ, but actually only about x30.

He did suggest the idea of maxed out Infantry only divisions in a situation where you have a second corp with artillary only in it in addition to a maxed out artillary Army HQ, but it has not been tested.

[Cromagnonman]

A corps has 16 CP, right? If that's all put towards divisions (i.e. a 4-division corps), then that's 68 combat elements (4x17). 40+ artillery elements would leave less than 30 of all other types. Moreover, in order to achieve max CP efficiency, you don't have any CP left over for corps-level artillery, meaning it's all divisional. To get 4 corps-level artillery elements, you sacrifice 17 divisional units.
So, that much artillery sounds ludicrous. I find it hard to believe that could work IRL, or maybe even in game. Has anyone tried it?
Or does "artillery element" mean "cannon?"

[SleeStak]

I think the idea here is not to use your corps cps on divisions, I think the idea here is to use as few divisions as possible in your corps. The maximum amount of divisional firepower a corps, army, division, etc is able to put on the enemy is constrained by frontage. Putting your heavy artillery in your divisions means its only going to fire a fraction of the time (that division is not going to fight in every combat and the more divisions you have in your corps, the less each will fight). The Corps artillery is going to fire every time and the divisional infantry is going to take the damage your opponent deals out.

The goal here shouldn't be to place as many divisions in the corps as possible. It makes a bigger firepower rating but the firepower rating that you see on your units doesn't really teel you how powerful they are, its the ability to use that firepower that counts and the corps/army artillery brings that to the battle. I try to put two divisions with very little divisional artillery into a corps and then fill the remaining cp slots with corps artillery. I usually get about 10 artillery units in the corp stack and that gels with what a civil war corp actullay had.

Also, when Jarkko suggested the 40 element artillery force, he was refering to the large army level battles where multiple corps and maybe the army stack march to the sound of the guns and fought. Based on my reading of his posts, he suggests that you have roughly as many artillery elements committed to the battle as you have infantry elements (they don't compete with each other for frontage slots so I think you can have as many support elements in the fight as you have infantry/cavalry elements in the fight) and that you concentrate your artillery at the corps level and let the divisions provide the infantry frontage. That way your division take your opponents damage, routes or cycles out of the battle, and your corps artillery continues to beat up your opponent until you run out of infantry elements.

As to historical accuracy, there were certainly battles dominated by artillery units that would equate to the 40 element target. The battle of Malvern Hill, sixth of the seven days battles, fought as part of Lee's response to McClellan's Peninsula Campaign in the summer of 1862, included a grand battery of 250 guns (the game artillery elements represent between 4 and 6 guns per battery) and dealt Lee a repulse. Henry Hunt commanded the battery and some gun boats even lended the weight of their guns in the barrage. After winning the battle, McClellan characteristically retreated.

Certainly large, concentrated 'Grand' batteries were the current theoretical goal of the armies at the time. This theory was based on the French doctrine put forth and executed so successfully by Napolean's generals. Paddy Griffith, in his 'Battle Tactics of the Civil War' puts forth some arguments why the armies of the civil war weren't able to concentrate their batteries more often and is an interesting read on a number of other topics too.

40 element batteries weren't out of line with historical doctrine or practise and I'm pretty sure that the game engine puts as many artillery elements in the battles as it puts infantry elements. I've found in practise that bringing large numbers of corps elements into the fight significantly increases the damage that your forces do. Just my 2 cents

[Cromagnonman]

Ah, I thought he meant corps-level engagements, not army-level. Still, an Union artillery element is flavored as 12 induvidual guns, equating to 2 historical batteries. At Malvern Hill, Hunt's grand battery consisted of 250 guns, which appears to have been the greatest combination of the war, perhaps rivalled by the combination of both sides' guns at Pickett's charge. In contrast, 40 Union elements would be 480 guns, while 40 CSA elements would be 320.

Now, it's a lot easier to meet the 40 elements if spread over several corps. The aforementioned 2-division corps allows 8 corps-level elements, plus whatever is in your divisions (I like 2 smoothbore elements per). So 12 elements per corps, requiring only 3+ corps to achieve your 40+ elements. Also leaves ~30 elements of infantry per corps, which seems rather more reasonable.

Let's compare that to the Union Gettysburg OOB. I Corps brought 12,000 infantry in 34 regiments and 30 guns in 5 batteries. II Corps brought 11k infantry in 44 regiments and 30 guns in 5 batteries. III Corps brought 10k infantry in 33 regiments and 30 guns in 5 batteries. V Corps brought 10,500 infantry in 35 regiments and 26 guns in 5 batteries. VI Corps brought 37 regiments and 8 batteries. XI Corps brought 8500 infantry in 26 regiments and 26 guns in 5 batteries. XII Corps brought 9500 infantry in 34 regiments and 22 guns in 4 batteries. The artillery reserve contained 23 batteries.
In game terms, each corps had a couple divisions of 1/2-strength infantry and 2 corps-level artillery elements, plus 12 army-level artillery elements. This would yield a combined total of 26 artillery elements and ~210 half-strength infantry elements. That's either 8:1 or 4:1 infantry to artillery, depending on how you want to count infantry.
So what's the point? Firstly, the AotP had too many weak corps however, it does suggest a certain ratio of infantry to artillery, on a corps level as well as on an army level. Your proposed corps of 2 infantry divisions and 8-12 artillery elenents thus appears much too heavy historically, at least as compared to the AotP at Gettysburg.
I don't have time to go through the OOBs for every battle, but a quick glance at Chancellorsville shows the Union corps usually placing 1-4 batteries in each division, with little if any corps/army level artillery. Seven Days shows (0-)2-4 divisonal batteries and 0-4 corps batteries, with an army-level 24 batteries; 63 batteries all-told.

(these oob's taken from that unassailable reference, Wikipedia).

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

When you only have a few good corps commanders like Longstreet and Jackson, It's best to cram in as much fighting power, ie divisions, as possible. My corps never exceed 124 guns (4 divisions with 4 elements each = 124 guns). 40 elements sounds insane. I thought the frontage rules would render most of them useless.

*edit* or is the 40 element suggestion just for sieges? I thought we were talking about field battles. Here's a thread by Dixicrat with all the artillery information needed.
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=12717&highlight=artillery

[SleeStak]

I'm actually going to try some tests on the effects of a corps level attack with and without corps artillery against an opponent that is both dug in and not dug in and quantify the results. I'll update this thread with the outcome for anyone interested.

The truth is, the game handles frontage mechanics so well and produces results that follow expected outcomes (at least for me) that I've never broken open the manuals, posts, wiki, etc to completely understand how the frontage rules play out. I have a reasonable understanding of how frontage works but I'm interested in quantifying the results in concrete terms to make sure I'm not just 'whistling dixie'. I've found Corps artillery to be extremelly effective in my games but maybe I'm just seeing what I expect to see. Either way, I'll know in a day or two.

Also, It is my understanding that an infantry element represents an infantry regement (on paper 1000 soldiers but probably roughly half that in the field, and often less) and that an artillery element represents a battery (again 4 - 6 guns with the south closer to 4 and the north closer to 6) so that would put Malvern hill's battery at just above 40 elements with Gettyburg's bombardment approaching 40 elements for the south. My understanding of what the elements represent may be wrong though. and if the elements actually represent two batteries, then 40 elements is too high for historical figures.

Historically, these concentrations did not occur very often. I mentioned Griffith's work because he makes a reasonable case for why artillery practise didn't always measure up to artillery doctrine. His arguments generally center around the amatuer nature of all the combatants (very few trained officers for a whole lot of soldiers) and infantry officers typically out ranked artillery officers by quite a bit (Hunt at Malvern Hill was a Colonel and commanded McClellan's artillery). Artillery typicall got parcelled out to the infantry regements, brigades and divisions, to the detriment of concentration. Alas!

Also, after rereading some of the posts, Hooker had an artillery reserve at Chancellorsville (Hunt still led it but he made brigadier general by then). He had an Army reserve of 11 batteries but very little in the way of Corps artillery. At least according to this

[Cromagnonman]

Ah, thank you for your testing efforts. My recollection from reading a year ago is that, in most terrains, artillery is pretty limited by frontage. Reading in wiki a few days ago suggested that support frontage allowance (that used by artillery) is about 60% of infantry/cavalry frontage allowance, and that artillery takes up more space on a per element basis (frontage seems based on that element's type's speed in that terrain/weather). Thus you can field a lot more line units than support in any given engagement. Looking at the vattle logs can give a good idea of who fired at whom, and figuring out the opposing oob's can help you figure out the frontage issues.

[Cromagnonman]

Looking at the frontage page in the wiki, without a commander in clear terrain & weather, you can field 15 artillery elements and 45 combat elements simultaneously. This increases by 2.5 artillery and 6.25 combat for each star of the commanding officer times each off/def rating point. Thus a BG rated 3-1-1 can field 17 artillery elements, while a LG rated 3-2-2 can field 30 artillery elements at a time. Note that this all drops off severely as terrain and weather become less hospitable.

This is the great advantage of Winfield Scott in the early game; he can field 45 artillery elements and 120 combaq elements simultaneously in defense of Washington, DC. He's pretty much the dominant force in 1861.

[SleeStak]

So I set up my tests and struggled carrying them out. I every one of my combats (I was playing both sides and had told both to push the fight at all costs), one side or the other retreated even though this was a fairly even fight. To figure out why, I dug into the frontage rules and this is what I found:

Using your artillery in anything like the number I had been looking at is possible but you have to have the frontage to use them. Cromagnonman was correct in a previous post when he said that corps artillery participates in battle only in the frontage support slots not taken up by the divisional artillery The only way to get take advantage of the corp artillery in large numbers is to expand your frontage by fighting in open terrain (clear/prairie/desert/wood) to gain the leader frontage modifier bonus.

In open terrain only (clear/prairie/desert/wood), the Units Quotas are modified by leader (rank)*(offensive/defensive rating) depending whether in offensive or defensive posture:

Combat Units Quota: (+25 points)*(rank)*(off/def rating)
Support Units Quota: (+10 points)*(rank)*(off/def rating)

-from the wiki page on frontage here

You start out with 60 frontage support points in open terrain. Each artillery element takes up 4 frontage points in clear terrain so McDowell (2-2-2) at 3 stars adds 60 points for a total of 30 artillery elements. If, instead of an army commander, you make him a corps commander later in the war under a genereal with a higher strategic rating and he gets a +1 to his offensive value, he can attack with a total of 37 additional artillery pieces and Lee is a monster bringing another a total of 52 artillery units to the fight. Even Beauregard or Johnson pull in a total of 45 additional artillery elements on the defense. So, if you see Lee, head for the hills, mountains, swamps, something other than open terrain.

Everything changes though outside clear/prairie/desert/wood terrain. Without the leadership bonus, you fight with the stock amount of units available and that, according to the wiki, means you generally fight with six arillery pieces. You will certainly fill that up with divisional artillery.

A side note, the effects are magnified for infantry elements. Lee brings an additional 94 infantry elements to the fight for a total of 139 while McDowell is only going to fight with 83 infantry elements.

[Cromagnonman]

Sleestack, my hat is off to you for your testing efforts. I still have a week of work before I have ~3 off, so I don't yet have the time to do serious testing. Were you able to discern whether or not the corps leader frontage bonus was affected by the rating bonuses from the army commander?

I keep forgetting that the leader bonus is only applicable in clear terrain.

PS- I just noted LG Thomas hanging out with a 10 defense rating. That'd be enough to field 90 total artillery elements in the clear!

[SleeStak]

The frontage is generated from the Battle commander displayed in the combat resolution screen. It also looks like it is applied to all of the units in the territory that the combat takes place. So, for example, as the south at the start of the game, if you brigade a bunch of units in the Beauregard's Army stack, march Johnson in, bring a bunch of unnattached brigades independently not in either stack, you'll still fill up the frontage with all of the units in the territory without regard to their stacking. I thought frontge would be more responsive to stacking but that didn't appear to be the case.

Looking at frontage in detail really changed the way I build divisions, stock my corps/army stacks and who I take to battle. Picking the right terrain is also key because the increased frontage is only applicable in the clear terrain types and clear weather. I've played this game for 3-4 years and I feel like I just graduated from the first grade!

[Cromagnonman]

Sounds like HA would be a sine non qua for any grand batteries, due to their (usual) frontage advantage over conventional artillery.

[SleeStak]

Since I first checked into the corps artillery and frontage, I've run a couple of campaigns attempting to take full advantage of the frontage advantage that a spectacular general brings to battle and I've found out some things that I'm sure many already know but, for anyone that doesn't, might be helpful.

I initially got focussed on this question when, reviewing the forum, I read that the corps artillery will fire be included in the battle resolution and fire at the enemies strongest unit. I tested that and found that corps artillery fills in after divisional artillery fills the frontage slots. The targetting seems to be the same as the other units in combat and, in the right circumstances (terrain: clear/prairie/desert/wood, strong high ranking leader), can be very powerful. In game, I've had more luck concentrating the artillery in an army stack and using the corps to fan out to adjacent regions maintaining army support. For me, three divisions per corp maybe one in the main army stack, each division gets 3-4 artillery elements seems to work best. Steer that formation towards important, clear terrain regions and it is very potent.

The part I missed was the same impact that the great leaders have on the infantry element frontage. For example, you start with 45 infantry elements available in clear terrain and Lee will command an addition 94 infantry elements into the fight. In a hypothetical 1862 faceoff, Lee brings a total of 139 infantry elements and 52 artillery elements against McDowell's (2-2-2) 83 Infantry and 30 artillery elements. It was actually hard to get that many units concentrated into a southern army in 1862 (That's 10 divisions with only three artillery elements each + 22 corps and army artillery elements). Grant is the real monster. He can bring 157 Infantry elements and 60 artillery elements into a single battle under the right conditions.

I do have a question. I had always assumed that the artillery elements represented a civil war artillery battery. A battery was typically comprised of 4-6 guns. Theoretically it was suppose to be four guns and two howitzers. The combat resolution numbers indicate that each element represents closer to 7-8 guns which is hard to image what they represent. If anyone knows, I'd love to hear.

[Cromagnonman]

They represent...

...wait for it....

Two batteries

[SleeStak]

Seems so obvious

[dolphin]

Since I first checked into the corps artillery and frontage, I've run a couple of campaigns attempting to take full advantage of the frontage advantage that a spectacular general brings to battle and I've found out some things that I'm sure many already know but, for anyone that doesn't, might be helpful.

I initially got focussed on this question when, reviewing the forum, I read that the corps artillery will fire be included in the battle resolution and fire at the enemies strongest unit. I tested that and found that corps artillery fills in after divisional artillery fills the frontage slots. The targetting seems to be the same as the other units in combat and, in the right circumstances (terrain: clear/prairie/desert/wood, strong high ranking leader), can be very powerful. In game, I've had more luck concentrating the artillery in an army stack and using the corps to fan out to adjacent regions maintaining army support. For me, three divisions per corp maybe one in the main army stack, each division gets 3-4 artillery elements seems to work best. Steer that formation towards important, clear terrain regions and it is very potent.

The part I missed was the same impact that the great leaders have on the infantry element frontage. For example, you start with 45 infantry elements available in clear terrain and Lee will command an addition 94 infantry elements into the fight. In a hypothetical 1862 faceoff, Lee brings a total of 139 infantry elements and 52 artillery elements against McDowell's (2-2-2) 83 Infantry and 30 artillery elements. It was actually hard to get that many units concentrated into a southern army in 1862 (That's 10 divisions with only three artillery elements each + 22 corps and army artillery elements). Grant is the real monster. He can bring 157 Infantry elements and 60 artillery elements into a single battle under the right conditions.

.

I have a question back at you. Why would you not instead stack the Grant/Lee Army stacks with the cream of your Leg Divisons and keep your Corps leg light with 2, or even 1 leg divisions for that matter and the rest all Artillary?

Since either Lee, or Grant are almost always going to support their corp and they both allow for the biggest frontage in troops as well as artillary it seems to me you would always prefer the cream of the army to be with them.

The artillary in the Corps are going to have the same impact and benifit from either Lee, or Grant's frontage when they arrive to support the battle anyway right?

Just stuff the Army groups Divisions with 4 to 6 artillary each.

What is wrong with having 4, or 5 leg divisions in a HQ stack?


P.S. Sure I can think of situations where this would not be the way to go, but the way I am understanding it I can think of situations that this would be far preferable. That is unless of course I am missing something which is why I am asking.


P.S.S. As a side question I would like to ask what affect on the great frontage Lee and Grant enjoy when using them as a Corp Commander instead of an Army Commander. Will it drastically reduce your test numbers?

[Cromagnonman]

The reason have strong corps is so they are not destroyed should their intended reserves arrive late or not at all. Also, corps can often have more CP than the army. Lastly, the corps commander may give more combat bonus than does the army commander. For instance, I have seen Sherman with an Off of 10, thanks to his bonus from Grant.

[SleeStak]

Dolphin,

What you suggest isn't necessarily a bad idea. It doesn't matter where the artillery or infantry elements comes from, what counts is that it is there. There will be some pratical problems with implementing it though. As Cromagnonman pointed out, an unsupported corps can get decimated by an opponents army. Artillery can be really effective in the right situations, but it isn't going to do you much good in muddy hills (you can only place 4 artillery elements) or other terrain that negates the leader bonus and significantly restricts support unit frontage. A corps with 17 infantry elements and 14 artillery pieces fighting on its own will be very brittle when facing several divisions at a time (you won't fill out the combat unit frontage with your infantry and once it routes, you are out of the fight).

Also, If you concentrate the infantry in the armies and provide 14 artillery pieces per corp, it will be hard to outfit another army with artillery. While trying to implement my approach as the south, I ran into practical issues putting enough elements into an army for Lee to get his full value out of it. As the south, you run out of war supply pretty quickly. Even as the Union in my current campaign, I'm using some decidedly non-corp like artillery units (horse cav and 12lbs) to fill out my western corps artillery and finding enough units to take advantage of Grants frontage is a challenge.

Finally, the corps will sometime retreat of their own accord if they don't like their chances against an attack. If they retreat, then no one supports them and they usually suffer significant cohesion loss. What's more, they usually fall out of a well dug in position and compromise an established maneuver line. For example, I just had an extremelly powerful Southern army grab Manassas by hitting two of my 1400 point corps with 2 2000pt + corps. Instead of my army and supporting corps marching to the sound of the guns, my Manassas corps fell back on Alexandria and I had to hastily maneuver to keep DC out of their hands. Overall, had a battle occured, I had the power to defeat the Southerners but my local units didn't stand and fight because they didn't like the odds.

So, to summarize, practically, its hard to find the money, war supplies and artillery units to provide each corp with enough artillery to allow the army stack to bring the infantry to the fight. Secondly, its practically hard to get your corps stacks to stand and fight with a single division (I've experimented with two divisions and they still retreat as often as they stand unless they are well dug in). Finally, if you find yourself in less than ideal circumstances for your artillery, your corps are brittle and can be decimated when they are not supported or are overwhelmed in the first combat round.

Three divisions in the corps with some 20lbs using up the remaining cps seems to work best for me. That allows 11 - 14 artillery elements per corp with another 16 - 18 in the army stack. A 3 corp army can bring as many as 60 artillery elements and 130 infantry elements into battle with this format and each suceeding corps adds 14 artillery elements and 39 infantry elements.

edit: as a response to your pps - The army commander is the commander in the field and determines the frontage for the whole army when he fights. Making Lee a subordinate corp commander under Johnson or Grant under someone means that commander will determine the frontage bonus given when they participate in combat. So Lee as Johnson's corp commander means that you'll get an additional (2*3*25)/4 infantry elements and an additional (2*3*10)/4 artillery elements to your stock infantry and artillery elements in the correct terrain. Lee will bring an additional (6*3*25)/4 infantry and (6*3*10)/4 artillery to the same fight. If you are able to keep Johnson out of the that fight, then you'll get Lee as the commander (presuming he has the highest seniority and rank among the participating southern commanders) but he'll be less responsive to supporting corps according to the wiki/manual.

[dolphin]

Dolphin,

What you suggest isn't necessarily a bad idea. It doesn't matter where the artillery or infantry elements comes from, what counts is that it is there. There will be some pratical problems with implementing it though. As Cromagnonman pointed out, an unsupported corps can get decimated by an opponents army. Artillery can be really effective in the right situations, but it isn't going to do you much good in muddy hills (you can only place 4 artillery elements) or other terrain that negates the leader bonus and significantly restricts support unit frontage. A corps with 17 infantry elements and 14 artillery pieces fighting on its own will be very brittle when facing several divisions at a time (you won't fill out the combat unit frontage with your infantry and once it routes, you are out of the fight).

Also, If you concentrate the infantry in the armies and provide 14 artillery pieces per corp, it will be hard to outfit another army with artillery. While trying to implement my approach as the south, I ran into practical issues putting enough elements into an army for Lee to get his full value out of it. As the south, you run out of war supply pretty quickly. Even as the Union in my current campaign, I'm using some decidedly non-corp like artillery units (horse cav and 12lbs) to fill out my western corps artillery and finding enough units to take advantage of Grants frontage is a challenge.

Finally, the corps will sometime retreat of their own accord if they don't like their chances against an attack. If they retreat, then no one supports them and they usually suffer significant cohesion loss. What's more, they usually fall out of a well dug in position and compromise an established maneuver line. For example, I just had an extremelly powerful Southern army grab Manassas by hitting two of my 1400 point corps with 2 2000pt + corps. Instead of my army and supporting corps marching to the sound of the guns, my Manassas corps fell back on Alexandria and I had to hastily maneuver to keep DC out of their hands. Overall, had a battle occured, I had the power to defeat the Southerners but my local units didn't stand and fight because they didn't like the odds.

So, to summarize, practically, its hard to find the money, war supplies and artillery units to provide each corp with enough artillery to allow the army stack to bring the infantry to the fight. Secondly, its practically hard to get your corps stacks to stand and fight with a single division (I've experimented with two divisions and they still retreat as often as they stand unless they are well dug in). Finally, if you find yourself in less than ideal circumstances for your artillery, your corps are brittle and can be decimated when they are not supported or are overwhelmed in the first combat round.

Three divisions in the corps with some 20lbs using up the remaining cps seems to work best for me. That allows 11 - 14 artillery elements per corp with another 16 - 18 in the army stack. A 3 corp army can bring as many as 60 artillery elements and 130 infantry elements into battle with this format and each suceeding corps adds 14 artillery elements and 39 infantry elements.

edit: as a response to your pps - The army commander is the commander in the field and determines the frontage for the whole army when he fights. Making Lee a subordinate corp commander under Johnson or Grant under someone means that commander will determine the frontage bonus given when they participate in combat. So Lee as Johnson's corp commander means that you'll get an additional (2*3*25)/4 infantry elements and an additional (2*3*10)/4 artillery elements to your stock infantry and artillery elements in the correct terrain. Lee will bring an additional (6*3*25)/4 infantry and (6*3*10)/4 artillery to the same fight. If you are able to keep Johnson out of the that fight, then you'll get Lee as the commander (presuming he has the highest seniority and rank among the participating southern commanders) but he'll be less responsive to supporting corps according to the wiki/manual.

That is most certainly a great response, but I am curious since you say you have actually tested all this how Frontage came into play.

It seems to me based on what I have gathered about frontage a leader like Grant, or Lee very rarely if ever would be able to take advantage of such massive numbers even in the most favorable terrain with the most favorable weather.

As compiled by Jabberwok for both Infantry and Artillary.
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=11074&highlight=Frontage+Formula

[SleeStak]

If you look at Jabberwock's first two terrain categories, Clear\Prarie\Desert and Wood, those numbers are subject to the leader frontage bonus. His numbers show the stock numbers for the terrains listed. To get the additional units a leader can form in Clear\Prarie\Desert and wood terrain, multiple the combat leaders rank by their off or def rating (depending on posture) Then 25 for combat elements (ie infantry) or 10 for support elements (ie artillery) and then divide by the elements frontage cost (infantry and artillery is both 4 in clear). The only leader that counts for frontage is the overall combat commander (the portrait displayed on the combat resolution window) and the bonuses can be huge. If you can manuever your opponent into a specific location with clear terrain during campaigning season (when you have a pretty good chance for getting the right kind of weather) you can massacre them.

You can also use the frontage to your advantage by limiting the combat frontage. Placing an extremely powerful division (I used Gibbons to test this out) with 10 inf elements, 6 art elements and a sniper, dug in can hold off a corp. Two divisions with that format (maybe 8 artillery elements total and the rest inf) could hold against almost anything in hills. They are putting their max frontage in the battle and with the second division, adding backup inf regiments to take the place of front regiments that route.

You have to be creative in maneuvering your forces to take advantage of the maxed out frontage the big guys bring, but if you can, you'll chew up everything you fight.

Check out the Wiki on frontage http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/frontage the hints at the end are excellent even if you don't want to check out the nuts and bolts of the rules

[dolphin]

If you look at Jabberwock's first two terrain categories, Clear\Prarie\Desert and Wood, those numbers are subject to the leader frontage bonus. His numbers show the stock numbers for the terrains listed. To get the additional units a leader can form in Clear\Prarie\Desert and wood terrain, multiple the combat leaders rank by their off or def rating (depending on posture) Then 25 for combat elements (ie infantry) or 10 for support elements (ie artillery) and then divide by the elements frontage cost (infantry and artillery is both 4 in clear). The only leader that counts for frontage is the overall combat commander (the portrait displayed on the combat resolution window) and the bonuses can be huge. If you can manuever your opponent into a specific location with clear terrain during campaigning season (when you have a pretty good chance for getting the right kind of weather) you can massacre them.

You can also use the frontage to your advantage by limiting the combat frontage. Placing an extremely powerful division (I used Gibbons to test this out) with 10 inf elements, 6 art elements and a sniper, dug in can hold off a corp. Two divisions with that format (maybe 8 artillery elements total and the rest inf) could hold against almost anything in hills. They are putting their max frontage in the battle and with the second division, adding backup inf regiments to take the place of front regiments that route.

You have to be creative in maneuvering your forces to take advantage of the maxed out frontage the big guys bring, but if you can, you'll chew up everything you fight.

Check out the Wiki on frontage http://www.ageod.net/aacwwiki/frontage the hints at the end are excellent even if you don't want to check out the nuts and bolts of the rules

What was most enlightening in your response is the Frontage Quota and how it effects the big picture. Now I can actually see the advantage to promoting Longstreet and Jackson to *** Generals. Something I did by accident in my previous game and felt I had screwed up.


Understanding that each element has a base cost called "Movement" which varries with terrian type and weather conditions that is then expressed as a frontage divisor which is then divided into a frontage quota which is determined not just by the Battle Leaders Off/Def rating, but also their actual rank (1*,2**, or 3***) is the key to understanding frontage and how to calculate how many elements can participate, but that is in open terrain only as in (clear/prairie/desert/wood),

Thank you very much.


Now I only need to figure out how it works for non clear terrain, or is that always a set amount ?

[SleeStak]

The Wiki has this excellent table:



This gives the frontage cost for the specific elements involved in different terrain/weather and the starting amount of frontage you receive. (Jabberwock divided the support units quota by the wheeled cost 60 / 4 to get 15 artillery elements in clear/clear in the post you linked in your last post) This gives you the numbers to figure out how many elements you can get in combat.

They also have this excellent table that gives you the maximum supporting elements that can engage in specific terrain\weather without including the leader combat bonus:

[dolphin]

The Wiki has this excellent table:

I had looked at those charts a good bit and while I understand most of what they are explaining, but I am a bit vague on certain aspects of them.

In the first chart while I completely understand the Frontage Movement cost per element numbers in the brown color that are used to divide into the Frontage quota what is still vague is the numbers in Blue.

While I understand they are representative of the actual total frontage used to divide the per element movement cost into I do not understand why he has four catagories. What are the second and fourth that are called "_OffCost"?

Furthermore I am wondering if there is a typo in this chart as it plainly states it is showing the Frontage Movement cost for each type of element in each terrain, but it is displaying WEATHER; not terrain. Whereas the bottom chart is based on terrain and weather.

If we backward engineer the math in the bottom chart it is obvious artillary is costing 6 frontage movement points per element if in clear weather in the woods instead of 4 and it is costing 10 frontage movement points each in a clear weather forest instead of 4.


I am assuming the 180/60 total frontage numbers in the first and third catagory are a hard coded base amount for all terrain and weather conditions which is then modified upwards for a leader bonus only when in clear/prairie/desert/wood; or downwards by 25% for the atttacker when in offensive posture in Wilderness/Hills/Mtn/Swamp/Marsh in Mud or Blizzard weather and Forts and Cities in all weather.

Curious if when you assault a city in a clear region if you still get the leader bonus despite taking the -25% hit? Forts as I understand it do not get to use a Leader frontage bonus for the attacker, or defender.

They also have this excellent table that gives you the maximum supporting elements that can engage in specific terrain\weather without including the leader combat bonus:

I guess we have to make our own chart to figure out the number of regular combat elements by dividing the Frontage Movement cost per element into 180 instead of 60, or just use a x3 multiplier as a semi-accurate rule of thumb which of course only works accurately for Medium and Heavy Foot troops since they evidently have the same frontage movement costs as Wheeled.

[SleeStak]

Dolphin,

The _offcost lines indicate when units have reduced frontage in an offensive posture. You mention the conditions when units in an offensive posture lose frontage (rough terrain in blizzard/mud or in forts or cities). The values are a percentage of the total frontage.

The Units_Quotas are the stock values used for frontage in any terrain. So, you always start with 180 combat element frontage points and 60 support units frontage points except in the cases listed above.

The chart represents unit costs in different weather for the terrain type Clear\Prairie. You can find more terrain type charts at this link: http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=13016

There is an excel spreadsheet attached to post #10 with all of the terrain types listed as well as a pretty good frontage explanation posted by Major Tom.

You are correct in your other assumtions except for the assault in a city or fort. Whether the terrain is clear or not doesn't really matter. The terrain you are dealing with in your assault is either a city or a fort. Your units are not subject to the frontage leadership bonus in those terrains so you get the stock number of elements for those terrains (20 inf elements and 15 artillery elements for a city and 15 inf elements and 15 artillery elements for a fort with a 25% reduction for the attacker) before you assault you should remember that the defender will almost certainly benefit from being dug in as well.

Check out the excel spreadsheet and post. Major Tom does a better job explaining this stuff than I do and the excel spreadsheet is enlightening.

As an aside, I'm going to test something that struck me today. It's not clear what restrictions are placed on the unit selection for frontage. If the engine just pulls units out of the stack until frontage quotas are filled, it seems to me that you could include an artillery division in your corps and pack it with up to 17 artillery units for a cost of 4 cps (instead of the 17 cps it would cost as individual corps\army artillery). If so, you could pack alot more elements into your corps which would make them more likely to stand and fight when attacked. I'll have to run a combat or two and see if the artillery frontage is completely used by the arty in the artillery division formed like that and, if so, it seems a no brainer to create artillery divisions for corps and armies. That means you could have 3 corps divisions (3-4 art with the rest inf) and one corp arty division giving you 42 inf elements and 26 arty elements per corp. That actually still doesn't fill up stock inf elements in clear terrain with no leadership bonus but the one corps gets close. If it works, you could give the army a similiar set up and finally fill out Lee or Grants frontage quota with an army.

[dolphin]

Dolphin,

.

edit: as a response to your pps - The army commander is the commander in the field and determines the frontage for the whole army when he fights. Making Lee a subordinate corp commander under Johnson or Grant under someone means that commander will determine the frontage bonus given when they participate in combat. So Lee as Johnson's corp commander means that you'll get an additional (2*3*25)/4 infantry elements and an additional (2*3*10)/4 artillery elements to your stock infantry and artillery elements in the correct terrain. Lee will bring an additional (6*3*25)/4 infantry and (6*3*10)/4 artillery to the same fight. If you are able to keep Johnson out of the that fight, then you'll get Lee as the commander (presuming he has the highest seniority and rank among the participating southern commanders) but he'll be less responsive to supporting corps according to the wiki/manual.

I put a little thought into the situation of using Lee as a Corp Commander. You can always put Johnston on Passive which prevents him from MSTG, so it is easy to guarantee he is not in the battle.

It seems the only thing Lee would lose is 15% on his chance to MTSG as a Corp Commander. That is as long as he is adjacent, or in the same region to Johnston's HQ he gets +10% whereas if he were the actual HQ Army Commander he would get +25%. His +30% from his strat rating of 6 makes it feasable to hold off giving him an army in special circumstances.

In terms of the frontage bonus I presume the calculation is based on the number of stars and not the actual command and Lee does have his 3 stars.

From what I understand do not Divisional Commanders derive their bonuses from the Corp Commander? With Lee commanding the army they would lose his awsome bonuses. Lets not forget that when Lee becomes an Army Commander he has to use 4 CP for the HQ.

[Cromagnonman]

Divisional commanders get no bonus, period. Rather, the elements in a unit get bonuses from both their unit (division) commander and their stack (corps) commander. The stack commander imparts a larger bonus than the unit commander.

[dolphin]

Divisional commanders get no bonus, period. Rather, the elements in a unit get bonuses from both their unit (division) commander and their stack (corps) commander. The stack commander imparts a larger bonus than the unit commander.

So then I need to start using Lee as one of my Divisional Commanders?

Just kidding.'

Is there any information available on exactly how the divisional and corp commander bonuses apply to the elements?