Official Revolution Under Siege patch 1.02a

[SEPRUS]

Do you have a save with backup1 (before, after battle) showing a too big increase in experience for a given unit?

[Baris]

Do you have a save with backup1 (before, after battle) showing a too big increase in experience for a given unit?

I have an example.
In Sidorin corps there is a unit called "Starikov detachment". There is inf and cavalry element in it. Cavalry element experience was 0 but after the battle it jump to 9.

[jack54]

I can also verify extra exp... it's trn 2 (1 star on turn 1)

(it's scenario May1919)

[ATTACH]14436[/ATTACH]

save attached

Thanks!

NOTE: (this is the same save as posted about rouge siberian artillery in the south) at this link
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=20145

[TheDoctorKing]

No that's ok, for us. We increased the decisions time but also increased the loyalty gain.

I was referring to the Requisition and Recruitment missions. Do they increase loyalty now? Or have you increased the loyalty loss?

So far, the balance seems ok for us. It is simply not realistic to be able to increase so fast the strength of your armies (as in pre 1.02), now in 1.02 this is more in line with what we wanted.

The Red Army was over a million men by 1920. I was not able to achieve that in my earlier game under 1.01b. I can't imagine how you could achieve that with half as much recruitment.

Also, the increased loyalty recovery really help in the long run.

Plus, this would be a major error to remove the NM loss on some decisions. Decisions must cost morale, otherwise they are freebies. Here, each use is a tough choice, while still remaining the primary method of getting resources.

Do Requisition missions cost NM again? I thought that eliminating this was an important step in the right direction with 1.01b. I'd hate to see them come back again.

Now, here is a trick. RED has a nation resilience of 2. Both Whites have one. It means that if their morale is too low, then they can get back one point for free per turn. For example, if morale is 60, then RED has two rolls with a 40% chance to get + 1 NM. So the trick is to accept having a morale under 100, to get back some points from time to time. He who does believe he can fight for long at a morale of 100 in the game is wrong, this is a crippling strategy on the long term, trust me, I tried

If you saw my AAR, you will see that I spent most of the game in the 80s, only springing back up when I was finally able to break White resistance in the Donbass. It helped that the Southern Whites shot themselves in the feet by recognizing the independence of the non-Russian territories.

I was doing about six missions a turn on average (mostly Requisition, some Recruitment, and some subversion and Cheka). If they all cost NM I would be in the 20s instead of the 70s.

[TheDoctorKing]

So I did a little more looking into this question of how many recruitment/requisition missions the Reds actually need. I looked at the May, 1919 scenario start position, and I counted 1206 elements in the Red Army. In the June, 1918 start, the Red Army has 542 elements. They get 127 elements through events, most of them coming in the Ukraine uprising and the creation of two good divisions on the Volga front in the early days of the 1918 scenario. This means that they would need to add 537 elements during the intervening 22 turns. If you assume that those elements come in the rough proportions contained in a Red Army 1918 infantry division (4 infantry regiments, 1 cavalry regiment, 1 artillery battery), 537 elements divided by 6 is about 90 such divisions, each costing 28$, 34 companies, and 4 WSU. That works out to roughly 2,550$, 3,060 companies, and 360 WSU. That is about 42 requisition and 51 recruitment missions over that time. You can dispose of a few of the requisitions with the money-raising event, though not very many since 20 EPs buys you a measly 100 roubles. You can dispose of a few of the recruitments with the Partial Mobilization event, now that it works properly again. In both cases, though, the maximum you can get from these events is nothing like what would be required to build the army the Reds dispose of in 1919. If the Reds get 5 EPs a turn - generous, given the territorial losses they are likely to suffer over that time - that will give them 110 EPs over the 22 turns, enough for 500 roubles or four shots at Partial Mobilization (I think only two mobilizations are allowed a year anyway). If you do two of each, that means $200 and about 4-500 companies, reducing the needed special operations missions by 4 requisitions and 8 recruitments.

If a mission takes four turns to complete, that means five and a half cycles of missions during that time, which means that the Reds must have seven requisition and eight recruitment missions going on at all times. Oops! Only six are allowed at any time. So, with the four turn duration for missions, the Reds cannot raise enough troops to match the army that they get to start the 1919 scenario.

And that is with no allowance whatsoever for losses during that time.

I strongly suggest once again that the amount produced by recruitment and requisition missions be increased by a factor of at least two. In fact, in order to provide enough to make up for losses and build replacement points, it should be more like 2.5 or 3.

I also noticed, while counting the number of troops that the Reds get through events, that the Whites and Greens get many more (I didn't do an exact count). So they can have their enormous 1919 armies, or something close to them, under this new rule, since they don't rely so much on special operations to generate resources.

[SEPRUS]

I'm not saying the balance is perfect, but there are two points worth mentioning regarding your demonstration.

First, The Red Army is not only made of the type of divisions you use as an example. It is also made of poorer divisions, plus a lot of Red Guards/Militia. So to be fair, you have to take that into account. Something along the line of the cost of the most numerous division in the FP seems better, so a cost of 23-29-4 and not 28-34-4.

Second, you did not factor the innate production of assets. Move the mouse over the top bar, you see an innate production of 20$, 43 conscripts, 15 WSU per turn. Over the course of the 22 turns you speak, this lead to the significant numbers of 440$, 946 conscripts, 330 WSU! (As you can see there is even a surplus of WSU compared to 'your' need).

[Hohenlohe]

Dear SEPRUS, will be there a hotfix near the next days...??
If not I must start my public PBEM AAR with vers. 1.01b...

Although the whole game seems very balanced in terms of AI especially the GC, thx.

greetings

Hohenlohe

[SEPRUS]

As soon as the Experience bug is cleared, there will be a fix. Can be at noon (European time) or in the evening, but today in any case.

[Seb]

I also noticed, while counting the number of troops that the Reds get through events, that the Whites and Greens get many more (I didn't do an exact count). So they can have their enormous 1919 armies, or something close to them, under this new rule, since they don't rely so much on special operations to generate resources.

An important thing to note is that the conscription "special op" do not cost MN anymore. Only "Tcheka" and "Reforms", the Spec Ops that boost your loyalty, do. This will greatly increase the manpower capacity of the Reds, as they have many areas they will be able to raise conscripts this way.
This way, it is incorrect to consider that the Whites don't rely so much on special operations : how will Denikin get his conscripts without them ?

[SEPRUS]

[SIZE="6"]
Revolution under Siege[/size]

http://ageoddl.telechargement.fr/latest/RUS_Patch.zip

[color="Red"]January 19th, 2011 – Patch 1.02a[/color]
The patch is a comprehensive patch, meaning it can be applied directly over your initial game installation setup version.


Code improvements and fixes
*The bug giving too much XP to troops has been fixed. (Thanks Baris)

Map and data changes or fixes
*Updated Decisions descriptions.
*When the Baltic Countries side (attacked by the RED or joining the Whites), then the Baltic sea becomes open to Allied war fleets.

Events Fixes
*Czech Legion Events changed: Svec officer is now removed. Player now get a one turn warning before the Legion leaves. The Czech garrisons that remain in place now really stay (event working fully). An independent Czech corps appears around Gaida now (Czech staying in Russia)
*A systematic typo while designing the Vitebsk region has been ‘worked around’ in several AIs events.

Designers’ Notes
*It must be noted that only the decisions giving back loyalty (Techka or Reforms) cost 1 NM. So you can use more intensively the decisions that before, even if you risk some Green revolts (that happened historically).
*If your NM is under 100, you have some chance to get back 1 point per turn for free.

[TheDoctorKing]

I'm not saying the balance is perfect, but there are two points worth mentioning regarding your demonstration.

First, The Red Army is not only made of the type of divisions you use as an example. It is also made of poorer divisions, plus a lot of Red Guards/Militia. So to be fair, you have to take that into account. Something along the line of the cost of the most numerous division in the FP seems better, so a cost of 23-29-4 and not 28-34-4.

Second, you did not factor the innate production of assets. Move the mouse over the top bar, you see an innate production of 20$, 43 conscripts, 15 WSU per turn. Over the course of the 22 turns you speak, this lead to the significant numbers of 440$, 946 conscripts, 330 WSU! (As you can see there is even a surplus of WSU compared to 'your' need).

Both good points. So we can figure the average cost of an "element" at 4$/5 companies/0.8 WSU. Thus the "missing" resources, taking into account the 440$/946C/330WSU from "normal" production (if you hold the core region) comes to about 1880$/1600C/100WSU. I know that the income from requisition and recruitment varies depending on NM and maybe loyalty (?) but I've been assuming an average yield of 60$/4WSU per requisition and 60C for recruitment. So this means that you will need about 31 requisitions and 26.5 recruitments over 22 turns in order to have enough resources to produce the May, 1919 army. In 5 1/2 cycles of missions, this would mean about 5.5 requisitions and 4.8 recruitments per cycle.

And you're right, there is no shortage of WSU. I have experienced temporary shortages of WSU when building fortified lines in the early part of the game. Once Tachankas come in, you can use them to build forts and they don't cost WSU so that problem goes away too. I guess if I were building more ships or artillery this might be a problem. I've considered building fort batteries for my cities, and this (plus the associated heavy gun replacement points) would soak up some of those "extra" WSU.

The required number of missions are in fact legal, but of course make no provision for replacement points or to make up for lost elements during this time. My experience was that I spent about one-third of my available resources each turn on keeping my current units up to strength. And the Reds would have to play exceptionally well to avoid losing a large number of elements during the initial White offensives in the summer of 1918. Most of those elements in Siberia are doomed, and against a competent human player I'm guessing that the Caucasus, south Ural and Turkestan armies are also likely to be wiped out or at least driven from the region with heavy losses. I have been able to keep the Kuban/Taman troops alive by withdrawing them rapidly to the north at the start of the 1918 scenario, but if you leave anybody behind the Whites coming down from Azov/Rostov will clean their clocks too.

There still is a significant shortage of resources needed to build the Red Army up to historical strength, even if the. The special missions should be at least twice as productive to give the possibility of achieving historical results.

Did I understand that recruitment missions no longer cost NM but only loyalty in the affected region? This is a positive development.

I'm also happy to note that the "restore air force" and "party members to army" events now work.

[SEPRUS]

Your calculations seem right, but as I'm on the code and not the data, perhaps I'm not aware of some things in game balancing, like extra reinforcements events. In any case I'll make sure the people in charge of scenarios balance know about this discussion. Thanks for the feedback!

Indeed, now only the missions that raise loyalty cost morale, the others won't.

[andatiep]

Your calculations seem right, but as I'm on the code and not the data, perhaps I'm not aware of some things in game balancing, like extra reinforcements events. In any case I'll make sure the people in charge of scenarios balance know about this discussion.

Can you also tell them a little stuff DoctorKing forgot in its calculation (but i still believe that the conscript production game balance should be checked again in case of the players fight both well and the Big Campaign get really long) : Each Reds and WHites Partial Mobilization events in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct give also many free replacements like this :

Code: Select all

  Replacement = WHI;$famLine;4
  Replacement = WHI;$famMilitia;10
  Replacement = WHI;$famLightInf;2
  Replacement = WHI;$famCavalry;3

That could change your equation... although they would always be a big 'X', which is the average number of the player's losses in fights and hard winter attrition in a year...

BTW, i don't know if the Partial Mobilization text message changed for the new patch, but before it never displayed the information that players get this infantry, light infantry, cavalry and milicia replacements added to the official hundreds of Conscripts (so players can't know that this policy is in fact much more interesting that it is said).

[Ebbingford]

Playing as Reds, Russian Civil War campaign, 1.02a.
Why do these two requisitions missions get cancelled at the start of turn 3?
You can not then request any missions in either Petrograd or Novgorod?
There is plenty of loyalty and MC in both areas and no sign of any enemy troops.
There is something wrong here I think....

[Baris]

Playing as Siberian whites when the Czech legion leaving event fires, gives 61 errors in the log and crashes to desktop every time after turn processing.
Such as 12:29:38
[Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 98323 RemoveUnqUnit = 1st Czech Fusiliers Rgt

I upload the save file after you process this turn errors will occur.
Edit: turn continues after starting the game again.

[Baris]

It seems getting new "Komuch and white general" option only worked once, I couldnt find new leaders after selecting option although there is a message in the log that generals received. Recruit prisoner option also worked once I couldnt recruit more even I have 6400 red in cell.
There is a message about deserting ranks in siberian forces and it shows city Omsk as the location. And it seems locked Czech garrison is okay with the duty.

There is an script error in in mid 1919 as:
[Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 5223 AI.SetLocalInterest = 1710;5;743;5715;5;716;5;717;5;724;5;737;5;738;5;739;5;740;5;741;5;718;5;

Line 5223: => AI.SetLocalInterest, Specify a list of paired values: RegionUID|Aggro_Coeff

[Seb]

There is a message about deserting ranks in siberian forces and it shows city Omsk as the location. And it seems locked Czech garrison is okay with the duty.

It shows Omsk (capital city) because we can't show where the desertions precisely happen (as it's random)
We're going to look at your other problems

[TheDoctorKing]

Can you also tell them a little stuff DoctorKing forgot in its calculation (but i still believe that the conscript production game balance should be checked again in case of the players fight both well and the Big Campaign get really long) : Each Reds and WHites Partial Mobilization events in the file RUS F3 Options Reinforcements.sct give also many free replacements like this :

Code: Select all

  Replacement = WHI;$famLine;4
  Replacement = WHI;$famMilitia;10
  Replacement = WHI;$famLightInf;2
  Replacement = WHI;$famCavalry;3

That could change your equation... although they would always be a big 'X', which is the average number of the player's losses in fights and hard winter attrition in a year...

BTW, i don't know if the Partial Mobilization text message changed for the new patch, but before it never displayed the information that players get this infantry, light infantry, cavalry and milicia replacements added to the official hundreds of Conscripts (so players can't know that this policy is in fact much more interesting that it is said).

In my calculation, I wasn't really counting replacement points. I have found in two complete games against the AI that as the Reds I spend about 1/3 of my resources on replacement points. I only ever did the mobilization events about twice in either game. My sense is that the number of replacements you get is actually rather small - as you point out, a total of 19 points. That is the equivalent of about 130 conscript companies, though, so it does make the mobilization event more useful than it appears at first.

[daemonofdecay]

There still is a significant shortage of resources needed to build the Red Army up to historical strength, even if the. The special missions should be at least twice as productive to give the possibility of achieving historical results.

This does seem about right from my experiences; even by 1920-21 when playing as the Communists both the Whites each had roughly 50% of my military strength total... even after I had taken the area east of the Volga, the Ukraine, and all of the Don region except Rostov (where the Southern Whites had all of there military sitting defending their last major city - it was a 2 year long stalemate as my large army next-door kept them from moving away). At that point I was just struggling for money to buy replacements for my armies (I had 200+ conscripts available, but was only getting enough money to buy 3 - 4 replacement chits a turn), so further growth was out of the question.

I think a good solution would be to give the objective/strategic cities more importance by making them give more money/manpower to offset this inability to grow the army to near historic levels. Would reward a player for holding onto important cities/regions more.

Or one could reduce the cost of replacement chits to allow growth and replenishment, and not just a choice between the two.

[Ebbingford]

I am playing as Reds, RCW campaign, its early Aug 1918 and have just had the message "The Bolcheviks have received a new General".
I can't see a new one anywhere though. The message doesn't take me to him when it is clicked on either. Shouldn't there be a line following it saying that "such and such is awaiting a command", and this also takes you to him when it is clicked on?

On a seperate note the Politkom units are meant to increase the discipline of all units in the stack. At the moment they make no difference to the discipline ratings as shown on the unit detail panel.

I still can't order any spec ops in Petrograd or Novgorod since the first turn missions were cancelled.

[TheDoctorKing]

In AACW, I was calling for there to be more "regular" conscript companies and $ coming from towns. But in RUS I think the role of special operations is important. It simulates the ad hoc nature of recruitment and taxation on both sides. I liked Athens/Clovis's suggestion (for his Fatal Years mod) that both sides could adopt a more sensible policy of normal taxation and recruitment at the cost of not being able to do so much special operation taxation.

I also have noticed a lack of leaders, at least for the Reds. You could certainly never do the "house rule" that Andatiep and I did in our AACW game, that prevented you from moving units into enemy territory without a leader. I had several combat stacks running around without leaders in the last game.

[Baris]

... And the Reds would have to play exceptionally well to avoid losing a large number of elements during the initial White offensives in the summer of 1918. Most of those elements in Siberia are doomed, and against a competent human player I'm guessing that the Caucasus, south Ural and Turkestan armies are also likely to be wiped out or at least driven from the region with heavy losses. I have been able to keep the Kuban/Taman troops alive by withdrawing them rapidly to the north at the start of the 1918 scenario, but if you leave anybody behind the Whites coming down from Azov/Rostov will clean their clocks too.

There still is a significant shortage of resources needed to build the Red Army up to historical strength, even if the. The special missions should be at least twice as productive to give the possibility of achieving historical results.

I'm also happy to note that the "restore air force" and "party members to army" events now work.

Receive Red general option also seems to be working well but there is low amount of red generals and it can create a serious problem in Pbem. Units not having a leader having severe penalties in battle even they are composed of 6 elements and artilery,they dont commit much to battle. Against AI I was mostly able to keep Kuban and Kazan area pretty well in the beginning but it is very hard to do against human player I guess.
Also When whites sign an alliance with Balts, Baltics can field 50000-60000 men and can advance to Moscow pretty fast as they are very near to Red objective cities. As playing whites or siberian without much requisiton and construction I can field 100000(+) men around 1919 spring. As reds with much requisiton and much construction without revolting greens, I can field *1.5 higher but not too much. Cheka option resulting NM loss so even successfully playing against AI NM hardly getting above 85-90 while Siberians have a 110-120 in early 1919.

[Ebbingford]

Looks like the leader Bela Kun is not showing properly on the map, the icon for the troops with him is showing instead of his portrait. See piccy..




It looks like some missing text when you have the weather overlay on, see below.

[Baris]

I was looking at the effects of Ex-imprerial and strong morale traits and it seems 79th Fusilier element doesnt receive the effect of discipline and the cohesion bonus from Kamenev in both stack and division level. 103rd fusiliers is the independent detachment. Or there is one model created but there is a difference in calculation?


[ATTACH]14450[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]14451[/ATTACH]


[ATTACH]14452[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]14453[/ATTACH]

[Ebbingford]

Just had the following script error.

Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 103945 Apply

Event is

evt_nam_Renforts_CMN_JapaneseIntervention2

.

Line is

Line 103945: => ApplyCreateUnit command, not enough units declared or possible for the recombination: 1

[Ebbingford]

Playing as Reds, there doesn't seem to be any replacements for the mounted partisans. I have got replacements in reserve for cavalry and partisans but the mounted partisans don't seem to be drawing any.
It looks like there needs to be another type of replacement, Raiders (Cavalry).

[Ebbingford]

Another script error

[Error ] FullDebug: Script Engine Error(s), while parsing line 13813 Apply

Event is

evt_nam_POL_PolishArmy

Line is

Line 13813: Poland , Depot Lwow Depot created in region Lwow

Line 13813: => ApplyCreateStruc command 2 factions have exclusive structures Latest addition Lwow Depot UID of Owner 1000008 Conflicting with (UID of Owner) 1000001 Check also between the Setup tab and the primary controler in the Cities Tab

[Baris]

When Reds declare war upon Fınns ,balts and Transcaucasus. In the next turns can declare again via options and it show as war is declared in message log everytime.

About MC, Green militia is slow about gaining MC in regions they occupy which can result cancelling of requisition in the 4th turn even they get all the cities in area in the first turn.
In this one, it is the second turn they stay in region but can not cut supply lines of reds.
[ATTACH]14467[/ATTACH] [ATTACH]14469[/ATTACH]

[OneArmedMexican]

I finally got around to playing this game again instead of just modding it.

Nice patch. Thank you!

Some minor issues/propositions I stumbled upon (I played the GC as Red, patch 1.02a):

1) From the very start, I was unable to order any special ops in Petrograd and Novgorod. Loyalty and control are high enough in both regions, still didn't work.

2) I have been wondering for quite some time if it is on purpose that there is no difference (in price and stats) between Red howitzer and normal artillery. For Southern White howitzer serve as assault artillery, whereas normal bty are stronger on defense. Shouldn't that be the same for the Red faction?

3) It would be really helpful if the desertion message would clarify numbers (in elements or hitpoints) and (if possible) the concerned stack/region. Under the new patch desertion is for the first time a major issue, it would be very helpful if the player had more detailed information to attack the problem.

4) Concerning the experience bug reported for 1.02: Even with 1.02a, it seems to me that my troops gain experience a lot faster than under 1.01 (although not at a game breaking pace as reported before). Still it is somewhat odd if a newly recruited cavalry division gains her first star during the time it takes to finish training (no combat!). Is that an accident or intended?

5) Red leader shortage: As opposed to the Southern White and Siberians, the Bolshevic suffers from a severe shortage in generals. The player simply cannot afford to loose any generals in combat (losses via events already are severe enough).
IMO, that is highly unrealistic. Yes, the Red Army had leadership issues, however I believe that is already simulated by the crappy stats of the Red leaders (Who doesn't love all those 2 - 0 - 0 generals?). Historically, the Red army had enough generals (one can always promote someone), it just didn't have many talented ones.
It is also telling that it is impossible to get all Red generals that theoretically would be available via the "receive general" option and appear in the 1919 campaign.
Here are two proposition on how to mitigate this issue:
a) make the option "receive general" available at shorter intervals for the Red faction. Every four turns perhaps? Indeed that would only be fair since the Red side should receive as many generals as her enemies combined.
b) Introduce an event à la ACW (1861 generals arrive, etc.) which spawns Red generals in a bigger group.
c) Make some of the events resulting in the loss of leaders (e.g. Muraviev) into multiple choice events. It would be pretty cool if the player could decide whether to execute or keep these generals in exchange for a severe NM hit.

6) Ressources: I fully agree with TheDoctorKing that the Red side should get more ressources. Also I believe the balance between the different ressources is off:
Each side in this conflict should have a particular feeling:
The Red should swim in conscripts but be short of money and war supplies; the White should swim in money and war suplies but suffer from a severe shortage of conscripts.
Currently the Red is short of everything but war supplies. Whereas the Siberian White is far too well supplied.

Did you notice? I didn't even mention the Drang Campaign's AI. ... Ooops just did. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
IMO, you guys have every reason to be proud of RUS! It is a great game!

[Seb]

6) Ressources: I fully agree with TheDoctorKing that the Red side should get more ressources. Also I believe the balance between the different ressources is off:
Each side in this conflict should have a particular feeling:
The Red should swim in conscripts but be short of money and war supplies; the White should swim in money and war suplies but suffer from a severe shortage of conscripts.
Currently the Red is short of everything but war supplies. Whereas the Siberian White is far too well supplied.

Did you notice? I didn't even mention the Drang Campaign's AI. ... Ooops just did. Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
IMO, you guys have every reason to be proud of RUS! It is a great game!

Ressources balance and leader shortage are on the top of our next patch correction list
Thanks a lot for your feedbacks