NCP the unloved son?

[Templer]

I wanted to find one more AGEOD game beside AACW.
I had to choose between RoP and NCP. I like the era of Napoleon much more and so I've decided to purchase NCP.

I can´t say, not yet, whether I'm disappointed with NCP.

What strikes me, however, although I am less than 30 min active with NCP, I have already found several, mostly graphical errors.
No gamebreakers, but just because there are small bugs I would expected that those bugs had been already eliminated in the years after the release of NCP in one of the patches.

I will not shake the feeling, that on the part AGEOD, NCP receive much less attention, care and love as compared to the other AGEOD games.

Maybe I should have choose RoP.

[Rafiki]

I will not shake the feeling, that on the part AGEOD, NCP receive much less attention, care and love as compared to the other AGEOD games.

You're not the first one to raise this concern.

The way I see it, is that AGEOD games are often "diamonds in the rough" when they are released; it's when the AGEOD team and the player community come together that they really start to shine and reach their full potential. The players provide feedback on game features and bug reports, and the AGEOD team acts upon that feedback and those reports. This goes back and forth for quite a while, and in the end, a sparkly, clean-cut diamond manifests itself and everyone wins.

For a number of reasons, this process never really gained traction for NCP, and so it still retains in many ways the "diamond in the rough"-status. A shame really; the silver lining will have to be that it has perhaps increased the chance of an NCP2 down the road.

Please note that these are personal speculations on my part, from my branch up here in the baobab tree. I haven't heard the Phils' take on NCP; perhaps I'll hear it one day when I get to buy them some of the beers I owe them

[Templer]

NCP is certainly not a bad game.
Perhaps I would like it very much if it´s patched/updated conscientious.

I have already stated in another thread:
It feels like a sloppy loveless product support for NCP.

In my experience, unusual for AGEOD.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Templer]

@ Gary Lensman,

thank you for the extended and informative post.

Yes, I'm a little frustrated and disappointed.
I just wanted to at least one more AGEOD game next AACW.
If I had spent my money but rather for RoP.

NCP will probably uninstalled.

AACW then lets the sun rise again.

[Bernadotte]

NCP will probably uninstalled.

I was also a little bit frustrated, but I learned to live with some annoying things and still like the game and its theme. So, don't uninstall it !!
Since you (I suppose) live in germany or western europe, maybe BoA2, which you can get for less than € 6,- via Amazon.co.uk, might be an alternative for you.

I'm not an experienced ageod nor a NCP gamer, but maybe you won't to start a pbem game (my first one) with me (maybe in german) ?
Since I have family, a job and an old house I can only send a turn twice a week.
We'll see

Servus,
Bernadotte

[Omnius]

I always like to wait to buy a computer wargame because games when first released are far from finished and contain many bugs. I'm glad I waited to purchase NCP until just about two weeks ago and discovered a new beta patch 1.07. Make sure your game has the latest patch to be sure to get rid of any bugs recently fixed. As for the graphical glitch I'm guessing that Templer has seen the problem with the top panel in the Unit Details screen cutting off the second line of info at the bottom. That has been fixed in the new unofficial 1.07 patch that's in the Help to Improve NCP section.

One problem I did see in my first completed game was in the 1806 Jena scenario where I finished as the Prussian player with 637 VP's to the AI's 92 VP's and the program called it a stalemate but a minor victory for the French and a minor defeat for me. Really? The AI lost Napoleon frozen to death besieging Magdeburg and only captured Bremen. A smarter victory determination needs to be done so the player with the most VP's gets the victory. Historically that would have been a major Prussian victory.

[Omnius]

Templer,
Don't give up the ghost on NCP after a mere 30 minute trial. Also look in the Help to Improve NCP section to download the unofficial 1.07 patch that clears up the graphical glitch in the Unit Details screen. Plus when you see a problem that bothers you make sure to say what it is instead of being nebulous. The NCP game is good and it just takes time to figure out how to do stuff to really enjoy the game.

[Templer]

@ Bernadotte

You assume correctly, I live in Germany, north of Munich!
The place called Nuremberg. Famous for gingerbread, bratwurst and beer.

I also like the game and its theme. Much more than RoP

I've seen BoA2 . But I just wanted a game that is played on the German continent.
I wanted to conquer and defend cities such as Nürnberg, Munich, Berlin, etc., .

I've been playing AACW for a while. If I buy now BoA2 I would fight again in the "old colonies".
I think I already know every rattlesnake by name.

Indeed, even some things annoy me and I´ll probably learn to live with it.
I see even that NCP will further improved in small steps.
Let´s be confident.

However, I have now found a bug that really bothers me. You as one from Munich's probably never noticed.
In NCP Nuremberg, also written Nuernberg, Fürth as well, are not in Franken/Bavaria.
No they´re set in the Oberpfalz???!!!
And the placing of the region Franken is completely wrong!

Thanks for the offer to play by e-mail.
I unfortunately must decline. During my career I can´t plan my spare time.
Also, I´m often overseas and e-mail traffic must be processed via my phone.


@ Omnius,

Never mention this bug.
I startet playing with V 1.07 from the beginning.

[BigDuke66]

Reading the points mentioned here I wonder why NC is still more expensive than RoP.
NC doesn't seem to have gotten the attention it needed and was released a while before RoP that is newer, seems a bit more interesting because of one long campaign instead of all those small NC campaigns and has some improvements that NC is missing.
Can anyone explain this?

[PhilThib]

NCP creation team has long left the AGEOD boat, and therefore it was difficult for us to provide an extended commitment to a product where we are a very very small team with other ongoing projects on our hand.

What we try to do (and it's improving) is to create a new team of volunteers and coordinators who will love to "improve" the project and to which we shall grant support

[Mitra]

Personally I like this game very much; for me is not important the miss of a grand campaign or unit construction. The nature of Napoleonic wars is different from 7 years war or Civil War, it is a sequences of short wars sometime parallels, with differents adversaries. So I enjoy the game also like it is now. THe only problem I found is the difficulty to find opponents for PBEM (only one player at the moment)

[Kev_uk]

I like NCP, a lot actually, it was my first game of AGEODs catalogue that I purchased. Learnt the game mechanics, rules, and so on, then because I liked it so much I brought AACW and then BoA2. However, my main gripe about this title was that there was no Grand Campaign.

AACW and RuS both have big campaign games, and, what with the stunning map of NCP and its theatre, maybe, just maybe, AGEOD could have created a GC with this game. This is something that would have made it shine out from the crowd. You could combine the diplomacy of Emipre in Arms with the tactical/strategic component of NCP for instance, and I think that would have made this game a winner.

I hope for a return to NCP with a grand strategic layer, maybe from 1792 and the start of the revolutionary wars up until 1815. Hard work to code that I appreciate, but maybe in the future?

[tyrex]

The problem with NCP is, from a french point of view, is that it doesn't really represent what you have been that formidable period.
In fact apart the Spain campaign not really pleasing to french (not really good memory, too small a theatre to really maneuver and too few Napoleon presence), the campaigns are really too short. It missed, for instance, the 1812-1813-1814 continuous campaigning. No way to link the 1805 to the 1806 one (as it could have occured) too.
It doesn't cover also the Revolution's campaign from 1792 and Valmy to 1800 and Rivoli. 8 years of nearly constant war in Europe and the crucible of the ascension of Napoleon (which will appear as one star general in 1795 roughly). At the start of 1796 it could have been set as three star general attached to the Armée d'Italie (provide the french player controling Nice).

To make it short that game lacks some soul to and greatness to reproduce the might of France power even if french people aren't celebrating the bicentanary of one of our great men in History. In 2005 our government have prefered to celebrate Trafalgar than Austerlitz. And none of Napoleon victories were said about since. Yeah celebrate defeats better than great victories seems to be very common in France

[Pocus]

Did not knew that, what a shame!

[tyrex]

Did not knew that, what a shame!

Ah bon? tu ne savais pas que le gouvernement Chirac avait envoyé le Charles de Gaulle pour la célébration de Trafalgar et absolument personne pour la reconstitution que firent les tchéques à Slavkovsk (nom tchéque d'Austerlitz)?

[Omnius]

One thing I could never understand was why no game company ever did a game on the Battle of Dresden, August 26-27 1813. One of Nappy's finest battles yet totally blown off by game designers. We do get to replicate it in the NCP 1813 scenario though.

NCP could have drawn greater customer attraction if it did have a long campaign. But I think AGEOD was smart to wait until they better developed some features necessary for that like diplomacy and economics. Looks like they've done that trick in some of the newer games. Plus after seeing the vastly improved naval system in BoA2 that allows for setting an amphibious landing destination when loading ground troops on ships I'm glad that we'll see an NCP2 that will have the grand campaign with that improved amphibious naval system.

I'm not too sure how well the early pre-1805 campaigns of Napoleon in Italy or Egypt would have worked as the map scale is too big to properly model them. The 1815 scenario is the perfect example of how the grand strategic level map is just too big to properly portray the situation Napoleon faced trying to separate the British and Prussians. One interesting twist to the 1815 senario I'd like to see is to include the whole of France and to allow for an extended campaign that would bring in the Austrians and Russians just to show the futility of Napoleon's situation. Even if he had beaten the British and Prussians he still had other large armies to beat with his smaller force.

[Prins van Oranje]

The most important thing is how the game feels, or how it plays, and in this respect the NCP is far and away the best Napoleonic wargame on the market.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Franciscus]

The most important thing is how the game feels, or how it plays, and in this respect the NCP is far and away the best Napoleonic wargame on the market.

You haven't played Napoleon: Total War have you?

And you both have not played Histwar: Les Grognards , haven't you ?

[Prins van Oranje]

You haven't played Napoleon: Total War have you?

No, I haven't. I have played Medieval I & II Total War, Rome Total War, Imperial Glory, Cossacks, Fields of Glory (on old DOS classic!), and probably a few others. If Napoleon Total War is anything like the rest of the total war series then I'm afraid it wont even come close to NCP. Sure its a matter of opinion, but I find it hard to believe that a serious gamer would choose the generic programming of the total war series (which is in effect just glorified 'Age of Empires' - you know, build and fight, build and fight, etc) over NCP?

[Prins van Oranje]

And you both have not played Histwar: Les Grognards , haven't you ?

Frankly, it looks like this suffers from the same problem every other Napoleonic wargame made on computer suffers from. For example, why do I - as Commander-in-chief - need to get down to ground level and observe individuals fighting? It is totally pointless and gobbles up unnecessary RAM. Secondly, they still cannot give the formations the correct number of men: so instead of 800 men versus 1000, we get 80 versus 100. When I played tabletop napoleonic miniatures, every figure represented about 3 or 4 'real' men and I thought when computers came along that we could finally have a game that showed the true scale of these massive battles. Sadly, this has not proven to be the case. A proper Napoleonic battle would be concerned with formations, not individuals. That is why NCP is so good, because combat is primarily determined by organisation and formation - individuals count for nothing, unless they are commanders.

You may prefer Histwar's games, but to me they make the same mistake that all other games of this era make - they concentrate too much on how it looks and not enough on how it feels.

[Franciscus]

Frankly, it looks like this suffers from the same problem every other Napoleonic wargame made on computer suffers from. For example, why do I - as Commander-in-chief - need to get down to ground level and observe individuals fighting? It is totally pointless and gobbles up unnecessary RAM. Secondly, they still cannot give the formations the correct number of men: so instead of 800 men versus 1000, we get 80 versus 100. When I played tabletop napoleonic miniatures, every figure represented about 3 or 4 'real' men and I thought when computers came along that we could finally have a game that showed the true scale of these massive battles. Sadly, this has not proven to be the case. A proper Napoleonic battle would be concerned with formations, not individuals. That is why NCP is so good, because combat is primarily determined by organisation and formation - individuals count for nothing, unless they are commanders.

You may prefer Histwar's games, but to me they make the same mistake that all other games of this era make - they concentrate too much on how it looks and not enough on how it feels.

Sorry, Prinz, but are we talking about the same game ?

First of all, there are no Histwar "games", just Les Grognards (the author, JMM, did indeed made another game, more than 10 years ago, called "La Grande Armee at Austerlitz", but is pre-history).

And I assure you, HWLG goes fully to the feel rather than for the "looks":

- 3D view is pretty good iIMHO, but it is not comparable to NCP, the graphical quality is much lower, in fact that's one of the criticisms of the game. But the details are all correct, meaning uniforms, flags, etc.
- 3D view is not really "needed". If you want, you can play exclusively in 2D, but you would miss the "action", that represents very much accurately a Napoleonic battle - formations, marches, defensive lines, arty batteries, etc: they are all faithfully represented.
- Although the INF scale is 10:1, deployed arty is 1:1. And I am pretty sure no high-end PC could handle a 1:1 scale. Remember, while NTW limts the field of battle to 20 units, in HWLG ALL units in each historic battle are represented. Waterloo is awesome !
- The game is all about you as Commander in chief, in degrees almost unimaginable. You are supposed to give detailed orders to your Corps Commanders (that will follow them - or not - according to their capabilities, terrain, etc), not to your units (although you can). And with full, "grognard level" FOW, you will give orders in the map, but in 3D you will only see what your Commander in chief would: You have to listen (yes, listen), to the sound of the guns, see the smoke, etc, to know if a battle has started, you will have to choose a strategically situated, high point to see the most of the field, and wait (yes, wait) for the dispatches to arrive from your troops. You hardly can get more "feel" than this.
- You will not see unhistoric behavior: no hand grenades, no "Alexander the great" charges, no pikes on the field.
- You will get lots of richly detailed historic battles, that come in the game and in lots of MODs that are continually being released.
- For those interested, multiplayer works great, according to the forums.

Bottom line is, although not perfect (some bugs exist, some features are yet to be implemented), HWLG is by far the best napoleonic tactical wargame ever, period. His author is comparable to our Pocus and PhilThib in his undying devotion and support.
IMHO, again, no serious wargamer should pass the oportunity to try this gem.

Regards

[hannibal128]

long long time ago I was a great fan of dr. peter turcan games (borodino,waterloo,austerlitz and dreadnoughts). This histwar game reminds me of that in a way even if I havent played it. Turcan games were way ahead of their time if he had more money there would have been no total war series I am sure. Orders were in plain text "oudinot attack hill 2 miles south for one hour" and oudinot may ignore this for unkonwn reasons, its was just brilliant. Is this relative control of the battle comparable with Histwar? or do you have absolute control of all units which allways do what you say?

[Franciscus]

long long time ago I was a great fan of dr. peter turcan games (borodino,waterloo,austerlitz and dreadnoughts). This histwar game reminds me of that in a way even if I havent played it. Turcan games were way ahead of their time if he had more money there would have been no total war series I am sure. Orders were in plain text "oudinot attack hill 2 miles south for one hour" and oudinot may ignore this for unkonwn reasons, its was just brilliant. Is this relative control of the battle comparable with Histwar? or do you have absolute control of all units which allways do what you say?

Although you can micromanage your individual units (although they will not do "impossible" things - CAV will not charge a square, INF will not charge CAV, etc), that's not the spirit of the game. You order your Corps Commanders, and the degree of uncertainity is selectable; for instance, you can set your orders to arrive imediately to your generals, or you can set delays (both for your orders and for the return dispatches); your aides de camp can be intercepted (or not), which gives an added uncertainty to the game. Your commanders not always carry your orders to the letter.
Also, although you do not write the orders (for this Scourge of war shows a very elegant and effective way of how it can be done), you set a destination on the map and order a deployment, for instance; you order how much of the corps force is to be in reserve; you can give orders in succession; you can set a timed delay before a order; you can give support or "echelon" orders; etc, etc.

You will not get bored, I assure you

[Pocus]

Jean Michel Matté is indeed very very dedicated to his child, Histwar. So, praises when they are due!

I confess I never played the game though, first by lack of time, second because anything under operational level have difficulty grasping my interest.

[Prins van Oranje]

Sorry, Prinz, but are we talking about the same game ?

First of all, there are no Histwar "games", just Les Grognards (the author, JMM, did indeed made another game, more than 10 years ago, called "La Grande Armee at Austerlitz", but is pre-history).

And I assure you, HWLG goes fully to the feel rather than for the "looks":

- 3D view is pretty good iIMHO, but it is not comparable to NCP, the graphical quality is much lower, in fact that's one of the criticisms of the game. But the details are all correct, meaning uniforms, flags, etc.
- 3D view is not really "needed". If you want, you can play exclusively in 2D, but you would miss the "action", that represents very much accurately a Napoleonic battle - formations, marches, defensive lines, arty batteries, etc: they are all faithfully represented.
- Although the INF scale is 10:1, deployed arty is 1:1. And I am pretty sure no high-end PC could handle a 1:1 scale. Remember, while NCP limts the field of battle to 20 units, in HWLG ALL units in each historic battle are represented. Waterloo is awesome !
- The game is all about you as Commander in chief, in degrees almost unimaginable. You are supposed to give detailed orders to your Corps Commanders (that will follow them - or not - according to their capabilities, terrain, etc), not to your units (although you can). And with full, "grognard level" FOW, you will give orders in the map, but in 3D you will only see what your Commander in chief would: You have to listen (yes, listen), to the sound of the guns, see the smoke, etc, to know if a battle has started, you will have to choose a strategically situated, high point to see the most of the field, and wait (yes, wait) for the dispatches to arrive from your troops. You hardly can get more "feel" than this.
- You will not see unhistoric behavior: no hand grenades, no "Alexander the great" charges, no pikes on the field.
- You will get lots of richly detailed historic battles, that come in the game and in lots of MODs that are continually being released.
- For those interested, multiplayer works great, according to the forums.

Bottom line is, although not perfect (some bugs exist, some features are yet to be implemented), HWLG is by far the best napoleonic tactical wargame ever, period. His author is comparable to our Pocus and PhilThib in his undying devotion and support.
IMHO, again, no serious wargamer should pass the oportunity to try this gem.

Regards

Of course you are entitled to to be a fan and my judgement of it only comes from looking at some screenshots and reading some feedback, but in that respect nothing you have said has allayed my fears.

The only reason a pc couldn't handle 1:1 scale is because there is a strange compulsion amongst game designers that insists we need to be able to view individual soldiers at a detailed level - for what reason I cannot think.

[AEWHistory]

long long time ago I was a great fan of dr. peter turcan games (borodino,waterloo,austerlitz and dreadnoughts). This histwar game reminds me of that in a way even if I havent played it. Turcan games were way ahead of their time if he had more money there would have been no total war series I am sure. Orders were in plain text "oudinot attack hill 2 miles south for one hour" and oudinot may ignore this for unkonwn reasons, its was just brilliant. Is this relative control of the battle comparable with Histwar? or do you have absolute control of all units which allways do what you say?

I remember these! I simply loved them. I had had a couple for my Atari ST.... Now that brings back memories. . I. So miss it....

Aaron

[tagwyn]

Where is "the German Continent?" Hitler had a dream .... Check a map, a current one. t

[cbd]

One thing I could never understand was why no game company ever did a game on the Battle of Dresden, August 26-27 1813. One of Nappy's finest battles yet totally blown off by game designers. We do get to replicate it in the NCP 1813 scenario though.

NCP could have drawn greater customer attraction if it did have a long campaign. But I think AGEOD was smart to wait until they better developed some features necessary for that like diplomacy and economics. Looks like they've done that trick in some of the newer games. Plus after seeing the vastly improved naval system in BoA2 that allows for setting an amphibious landing destination when loading ground troops on ships I'm glad that we'll see an NCP2 that will have the grand campaign with that improved amphibious naval system.

I'm not too sure how well the early pre-1805 campaigns of Napoleon in Italy or Egypt would have worked as the map scale is too big to properly model them. The 1815 scenario is the perfect example of how the grand strategic level map is just too big to properly portray the situation Napoleon faced trying to separate the British and Prussians. One interesting twist to the 1815 senario I'd like to see is to include the whole of France and to allow for an extended campaign that would bring in the Austrians and Russians just to show the futility of Napoleon's situation. Even if he had beaten the British and Prussians he still had other large armies to beat with his smaller force.

Actually "Wargamer Napoleon 1813" was a game that covered this campaign. It had issues and is now an open source project on SourceForge, but not much activity for quite a while.