Revolution under Siege: Russian Civil War Game with RoP engine planned

[tagwyn]

marc: What college placed this on thier curricula? A course for history majors to beef up thier grade point averages? t

[kosmoface]

von rocko: I must find myseld basically in agreement with your thoughts. It is a shame AGEOD does not have more interesting things to do with its enourmous talent!! t

And that would be?

I'd like to know what vonrocko and you would have wanted.

[marcusjm]

And that would be?

I'd like to know what vonrocko and you would have wanted.

Starcraft clone?

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]We see there is a certain interest in discussing the historical events and context of the Russian Civil War. Therefore, we have created a seperate forum for you to do so: http://www.ageod-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=284

Whenever you wish to discuss the RCW without necessairly relating it to RUS, that forum will be the place for it [/color]

[caranorn]

Edit: sorry Rafiki, post transferred there ;-) ...

[jack54]

I think this sounds great. I don't know much about the russian revolution but as with the other AGE titles I'll be forced to learn.

I probably would have bought this game over ROP if they were out at the same time. Can hardly wait...November you say... not too bad!

[Duckman]

The Russian Civil War?!

By Jingo, aside from the Thirty Years' War, this is probably the best period that has never seen a computer wargame. I can hardly wait.

very very true! i like ageod for not doing a milionth remake of ww2 russian revolution is a great theme..

..and im still waiting for that 30 years war

[andatiep]

Good God, first the rise of prussia, now the russian revolution. What a bore. There was a poll about what people would like to see from ageod, and this wasn't even on it. Talk about a niche game.

von rocko: I must find myseld basically in agreement with your thoughts. It is a shame AGEOD does not have more interesting things to do with its enourmous talent!! t

Tss... Tsss...
Of courses we polled !!!
Check it here : http://www.ageod-forum.com/showpost.php?p=166529&postcount=25

See you're ready for the game : you're not so bad in Propaganda !!!

The enormous talent of AGEOD it's to make you discover History with games. The shame is for the one that don't have more interesting things to do that polling for TV shows without realizing that THEY are living in niches.

[jack54]

just curious... but how's the play balance in this game?

since I'm new to this setting (just started reading Figes " A People tragedy") does one side have an overwhelming advantage?

In AACW the north is much stronger but it's still alot of fun whichever side you pick...ROP I find very difficult balance wise (could be just me).


really looking forward to this! Something new and different!
Thanks

[jack54]

since this game is based on the more recent AGE game engine (ROP version) will we have the "detailed combat report"...(excellent feature), also...

considering the vast scope of Russia will turn length be closer to WIA's 30 day turns or more like ROP 14/15 day turns?

Thanks! Sorry if these questions were already answered somewhere I may have missed it.

[Cat Lord]

Yes, Detailed Combat Report will be in.

And a turn will be 15 days.

Cat

[jack54]

Thanks Cat for the quick responce... I was hoping you'd say that

[milrevko]

Not that it matters because I will buy the first days it is out!

[Def Zep]

It is a very interesting conflict, which has not been represented on the video wargame market for ages, if ever. I couldn't find any ...

In board game, this is quite a rate subject as well.

Cat

Here, Here!

I applaud your (and AGEOD's) decision to go with such a novel topic.

One thing I greatly value about AGEOD, is its willingness to "break out of the mold" and publish games on uncommon periods.

In the West, the Russian Civil War is little-documented and poorly understood to this day; I greatly look forward to the chance to see it covered in this form.

Definite buy for me!

[Przemcio251]

Well a stupid question will there will be a demo like for all other AGEOD Games??? I must say this will be one interesting topic...

[tagwyn]

I read a comment opining that this was the key event of the twentith century. What foolishness! If the South had won the civil war or forced an armistace who would have pulled Europe's balls out of the fire of WWI? WWII? Would the South have even bothered to help? Would the South have enforced the Monroe Doctrine? Built the Panama Canal? One can speculate that the Japenese would not have bothered to attack the Yankee fleet at Pearl?

[Przemcio251]

Well the only problem is that the South could not win the war... they had no industry, they were less numerous, and they didn't have the money required foe the War effort.

All the south could hope for is to prolong the war in a vain hope of forgein intervention... but that would never happen. In 1863 the south was basicly cut in half. The reason for war dragging for so long was that the most of the Union generals were as clumsy as they were stupid. And that was the reason R.E. Lee could win victory's against them...

If not for a lucky cannonball knocking out Hooker during the Chancellorsville campaign Army of Northern Virginia would find it's grave there...

As for Russian Civil War well it was one of the most important moments in history it shaped the World for nearly a century ( it created the Soviet Union as ). Polish - Bolshevik War that was technicaly part of it prevented the spread of the Communism to the West Europe.

[andatiep]

I read a comment opining that this was the key event of the twentith century. What foolishness! If the South had won the civil war or forced an armistace who would have pulled Europe's balls out of the fire of WWI? WWII? Would the South have even bothered to help? Would the South have enforced the Monroe Doctrine? Built the Panama Canal? One can speculate that the Japenese would not have bothered to attack the Yankee fleet at Pearl?

Yes ! Let's play a bit of alternate history , but that will not change the main dynamic of the European situation.
The XIX and the beginning of the XX century are the golden age of imperialism wars which are more and more bloody and desastrous because of the technologies getting more and more efficients when the Human ruling classes political brain didn't evolve in term of pacifical conflict resolution.

The WWI was coming anyway. Its millions of dead too. And this is why such big revolution was almost a certitude. Bolcheviks were first a minority which only win against Mencheviks because they said and they did will immediatly stop this absurd war against other european powers.

To come back to the ACW inside this mess : keep in mind that Europe was still the ruling most powerfull "block" at that time that don't need "help" from the american to performe its usual wars.
That if the south had win and keep its independance for more than a decade, it would be only with the support of a european power to help him. And be sure that the North would also have get a rival european power to support him very soon after. And both for how long ? The european alliances were chaotic and changing.
E.g. As soon as Napoleonic France would got a defeat, it would turn again into a Republic, which would had stop for sure its support to the South. I think that the British will not stay pro-south, too, once they succed to divide the north-american continent like Europe (divide et impera).

Would the South have even bothered to help? Would the South have enforced the Monroe Doctrine? Built the Panama Canal?

Of course, CSA would be an imperialistic power like the others and linked with european alliances to secure its situation against the North. Monroe Doctrine was southern doctrine too ! CSA wanted to control central and south american !

If the South had won the civil war or forced an armistace who would have pulled Europe's balls out of the fire of WWI? WWII?

The WWI would have happen anyway, but USA and CSA would probably also have been include in it and suffer like europeans. And many people would have call for any radical revolution after years of industrial massacres.

If you really want to know, the USA didn't pulled Europe's balls out of the fire of WWI. If they didn't had come (because they would had to care of the CSA), France would collapsed in 1917... OK, and what ? Germany would be the ruling continental empire. British and Russia would never really stop the war because of this (like when Napoleon did rule all the continent). Germany would have win for a while but would have to care of many socialist and nationalist revolutions in all Europe. But German Empire probably would not be so racist and totalitarist than the nazi III Reich.
Actually, if USA didn't came into the WWI, we may had avoid a WWII and got instead many minor revolutions which would have cost many less human desasters. Poor Wilson... if he had knew it...

Finally, for the WWII, never forget that this is this "minor event" which created the strong sovietic Russia which really pulled the Europe's balls out of the fire : 80% of the III Reich efforts was against Russia !

UK and USA support was absolutely necessary to repair the first military mistakes of Stalin in 1941 (But if you change History, you may change also the one of Staline)
After all, this is the 22 million died Russian peasants wich end the war in Europe, more than the few hundreds thousands of GI's. UK/USA Strategical Bombing was a minor fact (in term of military impact of courses...).

Well, again, it's only a roleplay of alternative history...

But anyway, looking from the moon, the RCW (with the Red Revolution) was a more important event for the Humanity than the ACW.
And true Historians come from the moon, not from earth...

[Rafiki]

I read a comment opining that this was the key event of the twentith century. What foolishness! If the South had won the civil war or forced an armistace who would have pulled Europe's balls out of the fire of WWI? WWII? Would the South have even bothered to help? Would the South have enforced the Monroe Doctrine? Built the Panama Canal? One can speculate that the Japenese would not have bothered to attack the Yankee fleet at Pearl?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ACW took place in the 19th century, and thereby is utterly unqualified for consideration as a key event of the 20th....



In any case, the ACW has a whole wealth of forums to its disposal; let's stick to the RCW hereabouts everyone

[marcusjm]

One could say that the outcome of the ACW had as much impact as that imaginary kenyan war tagwyn was talking about. This could clear up any misunderstandings.

[Hohenlohe]

Surely the American View is that the ACW had much impact for the Americas above all and especially for the rise of the USA to superpower, but for the Europeans at this timeframe the ACW was no War which was in any kind interesting for most of them as many citations of that time shows.
But for the Europe of the XXth century the almost unknown Russian Civil War had definetely more impact. Its outcome shaped not only the landscape in Eastern Europe but it influenced the political landscape of many west european countries because of the success of the Bolcheviks which gives most european communist parties some drive to try the same in their home country. First after the RCW the decisive european powers tried to ignore the newly formed Sovietunion until Germany signed the Rapallo Treaty recognising the Sovietunion which include the Soviets into the usual european power game like tsarist Russia before. In the Thirties the Soviet Union becomes something like a wildcard in the Great Game because Great Powers like France tried to ally with them for a decent time until Germany again did it real.
Without a strong Soviet Union the Nazis would have been able to overthrow most of Europe and would have even be able to defeat Britain.
If a tsarist Russia had still exist at 1941 it would have not the industrial power like the Soviet Union because many reforms were only possible by sheer terror to which the tsarist regime would have not the necessary power as I assume.
For nearly seventy years the Soviet Union was the dream of some main parts of the workers class due to the Soviet Propaganda and the social problems of many european countries.
I think that without the existence of the Soviet Union our economic system would have some major crash more after 1929 because of a strong Neo-Liberalism. The communist success in Russia was a nightmare for many conservatives and therefore changed the view of the economic elite to do some necessary changes to the behalf of the workers class so that they will not loose their power.
Some kind of a changed view resulted into fascism and nazism. Only after WWII the political class of western Europe tried more effectively the democratic way. But today we have some very bad tendencies in direction of a strong state with much surveillance power against the european citizens with the official reason of islamistic terror. The result could be the awakening of new fascism because on european level the european citizens have no strong rights to participate on power due to a very weak european parliament as I think. In times of the Cold War most western european countries did all to give their citizens better rights to withstand communism supported strongly by the USA. During the Fifties were was a CIA-guided Propaganda campaign to influence West Germany to stay in the NATO and the European Community and not to become neutral like Austria and eventually becoming a Communist-leaded country.
They could do this only with the help of the german Social Democrats which could influence the german workers class.
Since the forming of the Soviet Union there was counterpart for the socalled capitalistic countries which gives the ruling classes of western Europe a nightmare again and again because the Soviets seemed so successful.
Remember the Race for the Moon for example. What had happened if the Soviets had landed there first...??
Do not underestimate this development of communism due to the forming of the Soviet Union. The American View of the influence and impact of the ACW to the World is very overestimated and you should try to look at that War with a more decent european view. Truely it formed the USA in a way we know them nowadays and without the ACW the USA would have not become the Superpower as it was the last 7 decades, but to World History Communism changed a lot of the world with the introduction of socialistic and communistic political systems in many countries around the World.
Truely communism and therefore the RCW changed nearly the whole world, the ACW only North America.

I am a catholic conservative with some social tendencies who hopes for a better functioning economic system without the disadvantages of the neoliberal economics. Thats for those of you which think I would be an admirer of some socialism, thats definitely not the case.

Sorry for so much offtopic...

greetings

Hohenlohe

[Baris]

Without a strong Soviet Union the Nazis would have been able to overthrow most of Europe and would have even be able to defeat Britain.

But rebellions in some Nazi conquered terrtories already started. It should be considered that it is not middle ages that people are unconscious about nationality. Also conquerer is fascist not communist, no toleration to other nations.

But today we have some very bad tendencies in direction of a strong state with much surveillance power against the european citizens with the official reason of islamistic terror. The result could be the awakening of new fascism because on european level the european citizens have no strong rights to participate on power due to a very weak european parliament as I think. In times of the Cold War most western european countries did all to give their citizens better rights to withstand communism supported strongly by the USA. During the Fifties were was a CIA-guided Propaganda campaign to influence West Germany to stay in the NATO and the European Community and not to become neutral like Austria and eventually becoming a Communist-leaded country.

Well many books have been written and many people talked in the TV that even in neutral countries there were some CIA activity beyond state authority(they allowed it or by force). Which is a sad thing about in so called "democratic countries". To clean "Gladio" Italy worked really hard. Even unknown men killed many public prosecutors. Add to that many artifical tensions created in the society to stop so called"communism"(most were not communists) and to scare people. Many countries still trying to clean that mess.

There was a documentary in BBC about Power of Nightmares. It was telling that How nightmares created to control societies.

In yesterday communism was the reason of fascism or strong authority. Today is Islamic terror. It looks lessons not learned even today...(Russian civil war debate..)

To the topic: RCW more important then ACW,

[Rafiki]

[color="Blue"]OK, that's enough digressions. This thread is about the game "Revolution Under Siege"; other topics shall have to find better home, e.g. the "RUS history club"-forum[/color]