wodin
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Wed May 19, 2010 9:46 am

You want your wargames cheaper?

Try Naval Warfare online shop....hps games are $29.99 rather than $49.99.


http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/

As a scenario tester for Squad Battles I can highly recommend this game. Great tactical turn based system..all the games in the series constantly get updated with new features....many different conflicts to choose from and lots of new games lined up....now has military backing....yes the graphics aren't great by any standard but the gameplay is fantastic....good communtiy and two ladders to play on...fantastic PBEM game. Fair few mods out there aswell.

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Wed May 19, 2010 11:50 am

Generalisimo wrote:Exactly, but that's a problem for the developers... like you said, like Magitech.
To be able to feed your children, you need to stop doing what you like and start doing IPhone games... :bonk:


Hey, hey ... nothing wrong with doing iPhone games. ;)

I actually think there are many interesting possibilities on the mobile market for strategy/war gaming. Uniwar is an interesting example.

To respond to the original points:

Clovis wrote:1) by exiging low prices and free upgrades to wargames. Applying a simple computing about the ratio time passed on the game/price would show how much a 50$ game is far superior to any movie or other entertainment activity. In a small niche genre, lowering prices doesn't signify wider audience. Wargames will never been mainstream.


And they never have been, although people like to imagine a past golden age of wargames. I think the demand for lower prices is an effect of the way the gaming market is developing - it's not unique to wargames. The challenge for wargame developers is to adapt to it, not fight it (for some, that may mean maintaining high prices - listening to a vocal minority may not be the best decision - for others, that may require alternative ways of doing business).

2) By refusing to buy obviously good games about obscure periods. In reality, when you know the game is good, buying it will maybe be the real occasion to discover a new field of interest; if not, you will have earned the company revenues for other games more at your taste.


I have to disagree with you. A good game is a good game regardless of period, but I don't think people should be obliged to buy games for which they have no interest just to support a company. It is up to the developers to create games that are interesting for their users, regardless of what period it is put into.

3) By denying the right for a developper to do wrong sometimes. A poor game isn't in itself the sign of a certitude of failure for future games. But looking at any forum will reveal endless messages stating the contrary...


This is not specific to wargames either -it's part and parcel of the internet entitlement mentality combined with the tendency of internet anonymity to bring out the worst in people.
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Banks6060
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Wed May 19, 2010 12:05 pm

wodin wrote:Know one has mentioend the prolific output of HPS sims.

Anyway I think the problem is finding new blood. Not one of my friends have ever heard of or even know what a real wargame is. I say I play mainly wargames on the PC and the usual reply is "What Call of Duty or Yeah Ive played Command and Conquer"...

They wouldnt know what a wargame looked like let alone know how to find out about them and how they play. I also know a small percentage would really enjoy them aswell once they got into it.


Yeah this is a VERY frustrating reality. It points toward what the purpose of video games as a whole SHOULD BE. I like to learn from them, to interact with history (or historical fiction) and learn more about the period I'm playing.

I think many true strategy wargames also teach you about proper administration and decision making in tough situations that require a lot of thought. Most people today, especially young people (the main target of the video game industry) just aren't interested. It's very sad.

For instance, I've learned how some of the decisions I make running a country in EUIII can translate to real life understanding of how to properly run, maintain and expand a business. Balancing a budget, steady growth and consolidation of gains to achieve long term prosperity. The only thing missing (most times) is human competition.

Video games these days are seen as a "quick fix". And you're seeing more of it in the "wargames" that so many of the younger generation know about. The tride and true "C&C" RTS's out there like StarCraft...an incredibly popular successful game...but hardly a true game of strategy.

No, friends....it's all about the adrenaline rush; getting that fast twitch fix for an hour or so. It not only makes me weep for the strategy genre and the industry as a whole, but weep for we as a people. Learning, whether it be through books or through wargames...should always be embraced and attract interest. The fact that it doesn't....is very sad.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Have you ever stopped to think and forgot to start??

wodin
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Wed May 19, 2010 4:50 pm

The boardgame wargames scene seems to be healthy enough with new games coming out all the time which I suspect sell well considering how much it must cost to print and produce just one game.

Maybe a massive advertisement campaign aimed at the boardgamers would bring in new blood that will appreciate this type of game.

Thats a target audience that I reckon hasn't been targeted enough.

beatoangelico
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Wed May 19, 2010 10:21 pm

wodin wrote:You want your wargames cheaper?

Try Naval Warfare online shop....hps games are $29.99 rather than $49.99.


http://yhst-12000246778232.stores.yahoo.net/

As a scenario tester for Squad Battles I can highly recommend this game. Great tactical turn based system..all the games in the series constantly get updated with new features....many different conflicts to choose from and lots of new games lined up....now has military backing....yes the graphics aren't great by any standard but the gameplay is fantastic....good communtiy and two ladders to play on...fantastic PBEM game. Fair few mods out there aswell.


I know NWS but for my needs it's close to useless (no offense).
I'm european and I don't mind buying with digital delivery, so, even with the favorable euro-dollar exchange rate, when you add the shipping cost most NWS prices became higher than the ones for digital delivery at the Matrix european store... and then there are the custom duties to consider (and the time you have to wait for the delivery). It's good for the HPS games (a niche within a niche) but I don't have any interest in them at the moment.

wodin
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Thu May 20, 2010 12:00 am

Funny that as I live in the UK and have bought from NWS and there shipping costs where neglegible. The delivery is very cheap indeed.

Also no one I know has had to pay customs buying from NWS yet. Ive bought loads with no problem at all. It was mentioned over at MAtrix aswell as someone was worried about customs and everyone came back and said they where worrying about nothing. He labels the goods well ;)


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soundoff
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Sat May 29, 2010 2:33 pm

wodin wrote:Funny that as I live in the UK and have bought from NWS and there shipping costs where neglegible. The delivery is very cheap indeed.

Also no one I know has had to pay customs buying from NWS yet. Ive bought loads with no problem at all. It was mentioned over at MAtrix aswell as someone was worried about customs and everyone came back and said they where worrying about nothing. He labels the goods well ;)


Slightly off topic but......

If you have been lucky then count your blessings ;) Its unwise though to assume that because you have been fortunate in avoiding import costs that all of us can/will get away with it.

I also live in the UK and when I wanted a physical copy of WiTP AE I was charged £23 sterling import duties. That was on top of the £50 plus for the game. Mind you I wanted a proper manual so was quite happy to bear the additional costs. :thumbsup:

Aurelin
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Sat May 29, 2010 9:04 pm

Crimguy wrote:I guess. . . I have never had a problem spending a small mint for a good game because I know it will give me hundreds of hours of enjoyment. Thousands of hours in the case of War in the Pacific, so I guess I got my $70 worth there :-D


But would you say the same of DG's War in the Pacific? At $420?

tagwyn
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Sat May 29, 2010 10:10 pm

DG's WitP for $420!!!!!!!!! LMAO! Only a person with serious mental health problems would consider such foolishmess. t

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Mon May 31, 2010 2:30 am

tagwyn wrote:DG's WitP for $420!!!!!!!!! LMAO! Only a person with serious mental health problems would consider such foolishmess. t


So were you born that ignorant, or do you have to work at it? I'm betting the former.

No more foolish then spending big bucks on a computer.

Or buying a BMW Z4 when a used Chevy Lumina will get me from point A to B.

If I were you, I'd think long and hard before making such an asinine statement. Especially considering many of the posts you've made.

In case you haven't grasped the fact, I take great offense at such an ignorant statement you insipid little troll.

ps: I've been buying this series, and will soon have the just published Ottoman one :http://www.spwgame.com/WWI/wwi%20new.htm

I'm sure you'll attribute it to mental illness, but some of them are now going for far more than I paid fro them.

wodin
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Mon May 31, 2010 2:40 am

soundoff wrote:Slightly off topic but......

If you have been lucky then count your blessings ;) Its unwise though to assume that because you have been fortunate in avoiding import costs that all of us can/will get away with it.

I also live in the UK and when I wanted a physical copy of WiTP AE I was charged £23 sterling import duties. That was on top of the £50 plus for the game. Mind you I wanted a proper manual so was quite happy to bear the additional costs. :thumbsup:


Was that from NWS?

I'm suprised your the first person I know to be charged. Ive bought many games with no problem. I buy fro Amazon USA aswell with no problems..music only though.

It's more a case of you being very very unlucky, than me being lucky.

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soundoff
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Mon May 31, 2010 5:37 am

wodin wrote:Was that from NWS?

I'm suprised your the first person I know to be charged. Ive bought many games with no problem. I buy fro Amazon USA aswell with no problems..music only though.

It's more a case of you being very very unlucky, than me being lucky.


That was direct from the Matrix EU site. As it was a physical shipment (gold edition with manual) it came from the States as they don't keep such stock in Europe. Its back to that thorny old question we have sometimes on these boards of being willing to pay a premium for a glossy coloured manual which I am :thumbsup:

Anyways the order site is specific....the game cost is exclusive of VAT. Check it out. So what with an additional 17.5% plus import costs as I said it was a further £23 sterling. Now of course it might have slipped through customs under the radar at this end but it did'nt

So I don't reckon it was me being unlucky. As I stated first time around its you who has been lucky. ;)

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Mon May 31, 2010 3:27 pm

I'm fairly new to wargames but it seems to me that the biggest problem is awareness of the games at all. My own experience is that I played Total War games and became aware of EU3 from looking around the internet for something similar / harder - and from there I found other Paradox games and AGEOD and Matrix games - I now have about 20 games and no time to play them :)

I think that a lot of younger people would follow this type of route to strategy/wargames and exploiting these 'gateway games 'would appear to be key to building a bigger fanbase. To do this a bit of effort into better graphics is needed to get people to try these games for the first time - then they will realise the gameplay is the important part and they will stop being 'Graphics Whores'. I'd say this area has improved and if anything the wargames niche will entice in more casual gamers from other genres and keep some of them with the deeper gameplay - The ageod games do look good and while this wouldn't matter too much to the wargame aficionados it surely helped get some new players who would have been turned off by an uglier game.

Downside is you'll have to put up with newbies like me who don't really know what they're doing.

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Mon May 31, 2010 4:57 pm

There is a distinct change of personal behaviour. People have come to accumulate stuff to be happy, and that transfers to video games. The quality of the product is not as important as the quantity, or the name brand. People want the flashy simple game because they do not devote the time required to really get into a complex game primarily because they are off to the new purchase before the week is out. The market for computer games is gluttoned for every genre, and in most cases has become overly simplified.

I personally found FPS and RTS games dull and boring given their repetative nature, but their flashy graphics and cool effects drew everyone in long enough to buy the product, play a few games, then move on to the new purchase.

I cannot recall the time I devoted to game such as SimCity I, Civilization I, Master of Orion I, Wing Commander I, Pacific War, etc. All of which had sequals which were flashier, but never could replicate what the original may have had with its poorer visuals, but more interesting gameplay. I played those games for YEARS, where the average shelf-life of games now are weeks to months (in fact, I no longer play games, just help develop them, have not played a computer game in about 1.5-2 years).

tagwyn
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Mon May 31, 2010 6:12 pm

What is an "aurelin?" If you want to engage in a flame war - you are unarmed. Glad you are folllowing my infrequent posts!! LOL - you puerile pile of pond scum! If you have that much money to spend on a campaign game which covers an area of the war which could not have been won by the pig-headed nipps, then buy a cheaper version and send me the difference. HA!!

tagwyn
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Mon May 31, 2010 6:16 pm

What is a "aurelin?" Is it something you see when you kiss your ass? t

tagwyn
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Mon May 31, 2010 6:30 pm

Aurelin: Sorry you take offense! I still believe such an expense is generally unwarranted and wasteful. t

Aurelin
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Mon May 31, 2010 9:23 pm

tagwyn wrote:Aurelin: Sorry you take offense! I still believe such an expense is generally unwarranted and wasteful. t


The only thing you're sorry for is that you got called on it. Whether you think it's generally unwarrented or wasteful is open to debate. That can be said of everything. From food to clothes to cars to internet use.

But that isn't what you said.

The question is now, do I continue to support a company that allows such insensitive posts and those who makes them to stay with my money? Or not.

And this one, who struggles with mental issues every day, is leaning towards......... NO.

Zap Brannigan
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Mon May 31, 2010 11:14 pm

McNaughton wrote:There is a distinct change of personal behaviour. People have come to accumulate stuff to be happy, and that transfers to video games. The quality of the product is not as important as the quantity, or the name brand. People want the flashy simple game because they do not devote the time required to really get into a complex game primarily because they are off to the new purchase before the week is out. The market for computer games is gluttoned for every genre, and in most cases has become overly simplified.

I personally found FPS and RTS games dull and boring given their repetative nature, but their flashy graphics and cool effects drew everyone in long enough to buy the product, play a few games, then move on to the new purchase.

I cannot recall the time I devoted to game such as SimCity I, Civilization I, Master of Orion I, Wing Commander I, Pacific War, etc. All of which had sequals which were flashier, but never could replicate what the original may have had with its poorer visuals, but more interesting gameplay. I played those games for YEARS, where the average shelf-life of games now are weeks to months (in fact, I no longer play games, just help develop them, have not played a computer game in about 1.5-2 years).


I agree with you for the most part about personal behaviour- it has gone more to brand/style over gameplay/substance - a lot of people don't take the time to find out that a game (or a lot of other products) is very good before dismissing it and moving on to the next thing. I personally have played a few games for years also. My point about visuals is that to get new customers for wargames these days requires a decent level of visuals - this may suck but that's how it is. The higher quality of the visuals should not drag down the quality of the gameplay.

On the other hand a decent minority of people are getting used to searching for quality among the dross - it's just up to the developers to get their games to a high enough standard when people do find their games. I had never heard of Scourge of War: Gettysburg or HWLG until I read this forum and went to their websites.

These days nearly everything is becoming a niche market - tv, news media are all being tailored to specific tastes - (history channel, cooking channels etc) - a lot of people will go where their interests are met with the highest quality - this is where AGEOD and Paradox seem to have an edge since their quality of support/final games has got them a much better rep than a lot of others.

beatoangelico
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Mon May 31, 2010 11:45 pm

The more I play games and the more I'm convinced the perceived complexity of a game is made up 50% by the actual gameplay complexity and 50% by the quality of the interface...and a good UI has also a good graphical quality. I'm actually thinking of suggest a bunch of interface tweaks in the VGN forum...

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soundoff
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Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:04 am

McNaughton wrote: <snip>
I cannot recall the time I devoted to game such as SimCity I, Civilization I, Master of Orion I, Wing Commander I, Pacific War, etc. All of which had sequals which were flashier, but never could replicate what the original may have had with its poorer visuals, but more interesting gameplay. I played those games for YEARS, where the average shelf-life of games now are weeks to months (in fact, I no longer play games, just help develop them, have not played a computer game in about 1.5-2 years).



Therein I think also lays a problem for the game developer. I accept that there are some who frequent these boards who seem quite happy to purchase any offering from AGEOD whatever the period or their own personal interest. And true, it keeps the industry alive. Me - I do not see it. Nor do I buy into it.

Its like this. I purchase AACW and get really into it. Its a great game. But because its a great game it takes REAL TIME to get into and understand. I give it that amount of commitment. The game deserves it. Its good enough. The upshot is however that it occupies my available time for 12 months or more. I certainly do not have the capacity to play another in depth game unless I want to spend all day staring at the screen. The same is true for me with WiTP AE and HoI.

Today there are some truely great computer strategy wargames out there - even if they are thin on the ground.

They have reached such a level of development and sophistication that its impossible for me to play them all. So I end up being selective in my purchases. But that does not help AGEOD or any other game developer. Yet be blowed if I'm going to shell out my hard earned money to purchase a game thats only going to sit on the shelf. The wife does that with clothes and I've raged at her for more than enough years about the pointlessness of doing so.

If AGEOD or any other company want my hard earned money they are going to have to develop games its impossible for me to resist. And that means more than ticking a single 'its a good game' box. Just because I'm a strategy grognard does not mean I buy into any strategy game that is good.

As I get older, within my wargaming fraternity I find I'm not in the minority. Yes we have the disposable income but no we do not have the time to play everything and neither are we like the young who are prepared to just buy on a whim. We have been there and done that. But thats not good news for the long term survival of the developers particularly as we are the core of what on the surface appears to be a dying breed of player.

Somehow they need to find strategies for expanding the niche market. I have no suggestions but if they want to survive it has to be achieved. All IMHO naturally :coeurs:

Edit

I should have also added that one of the reasons I reckon its now harder for developers is that the younger buying public is in many ways much 'cuter' than my generation was.

Oh we brought tons of dross that ended up in the bins after a week just to get our hands on that one stunning game. But it was much more of a gamble in those days. All you had to go on was the reputation of the developer (not always a good thing), the box, the period and maybe a review more than likely done by someone who had installed the game and played it for an hour at most.

Nowadays we insist on Demo's......they give us a much better insight into whether a game has any potential but I bet overall it limits rather than expands sales. We also have the WEB and the ability to check out with many many more players accross the world whether a game is good or not whereas in my younger days it was word of mouth only. :thumbsup:

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Moff Jerjerrod
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Tue Jun 01, 2010 8:43 pm

soundoff wrote:Yes we have the disposable income but no we do not have the time to play everything and neither are we like the young who are prepared to just buy on a whim.


Well said!

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Jarkko
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Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:35 pm

Banks6060 wrote:There are fewer true strategy titles worth a damn out there anymore....strategy, for a long time, is what kept PC games relevant. Now...it's all MMORPG's (which I don't necessarily have a problem with) and FPS.

I've for years dreamed of Crusader Kings: The MMO.


"Barbar0ssa: Need one more count for the raid on Alexandria. Archers and skirmishers needed, no more knights!"

"Bonif4ce: What do you mean you won't let me march through your lands???? I'll burn your precious Constantinopole down if you don't let my regiment pass."

"Beelaa: YOU NEED TO COME NOW, AND I MEAN NOW!!!! THE MONGOLS WILL OVERRUN ME IN A MOMENT!!!!!"



Ah, but I can but keep on dreaming. Atill, maybe one day...
There are three kinds of people: Those who can can count and those who can't.

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Hobbes
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Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:08 pm

I totally agree with you Soundoff. If no more wargames were made there are already enough available to keep me happy for years. The time problem is even worse now that I am spending more time making scenarios than playing them. I do still buy the occasional one I can't resist - but I don't do this as often. If you really get into a big game like AACW or WITP, especially PBEM or modding it can take up years of time. A developer would really be better off bringing out a game that is wonderful to play for a few months - but for no longer. If VGN is the game it promises to be - what else do I need (apart from Baldur's Gate :) ). However most players don't hang around one game for years - so I suppose they are the real target market.

Cheers, Chris

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caranorn
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Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:27 pm

Jarkko wrote:I've for years dreamed of Crusader Kings: The MMO.


"Barbar0ssa: Need one more count for the raid on Alexandria. Archers and skirmishers needed, no more knights!"

"Bonif4ce: What do you mean you won't let me march through your lands???? I'll burn your precious Constantinopole down if you don't let my regiment pass."

"Beelaa: YOU NEED TO COME NOW, AND I MEAN NOW!!!! THE MONGOLS WILL OVERRUN ME IN A MOMENT!!!!!"



Ah, but I can but keep on dreaming. Atill, maybe one day...

:D

Ah I can so imagine that...

:D :D :D
Marc aka Caran...

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Hobbes
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Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:28 pm

I saw a chap playing a wargame on a plane once and thought that I should be doing that. But a laptop can seem a bit of a bulky accessory to take if you only need it for in-flight entertainment. An iPad would certainly have more appeal if I could use it for a game. How easy would the interface be to use though?

Cheers, Chris
P.S. has anyone ever thought of a foot pedal type mouse or for some sort of interface - even a laptop is a pain to use for games if it doesn't have a mouse - especially on a plane.

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Bernadotte
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Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:49 am

I play AACW, NCP and WIA during my daily train-rides to work on a Asus EeePC Netbook. Works pretty well even without a mouse !
But the downside is the (in my eyes unneeded !!) extensive use of directX and the therefore huge accumulator consumption !
And the, for the ageod-titles, not useable standby- and "suspend-to-disk"-mode are a real pain for net- and notebook users, because the start of one of the titles on a netbook takes several minutes ! :(

Anyway it is great fun to command your armys and corps during your way to work :thumbsup:

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