Replacements

[squarian]

Some basic observations/questions about replacements - please correct anything I've got wrong:

Replacements don't accrue by themselves automatically as in WIA.

There are three ways to gain replacements: 1) use EPs to "buy" options which provide them; 2) build depot bns; 3) up to four events per year provide "freebie" replacements but with diminishing frequency and/or number of elements provided as the game goes on.

When the depot bn completes, it converts to 3 replacement elements.

Depot bns only come in two flavors: line and grenadier. As of beta patch 1.01i, line depot bns provide line replacement elements and grenadier depot bns provide elite infantry replacements. If you need any other kind of replacement (e.g. elite infantry, artillery or cavalry), you have to get it via an option.

Contrary to what is stated in the manual (p. 65), brigaded units do receive whole elements as replacements, but only one per bde per turn (if you have three regiments in the brigade that all need whole elements you are better off to split the brigade down so they all receive 1 each, rather than just 1 for the whole brigade).

Partially damaged elements will recover strength only if a replacement of the same type is available in the replacement pool, but will do so even if combined with other units in a bde.

Depot bns are more expensive than replacements acquired through options. For example, an element of Austrian line inf costs $5/2C/4WS (and the EPs required to purchase the option, of course). The same element acquired by depot bn costs $12/10C/20WS. The main reason to use depot bns to gain replacements is that an option may be unavailable while depot bns are usually available.

(edit to include information posted below by various people and updated to 1.01i)

[timurlain]

If your analysis is correct I learned some new bits

[Ebbingford]

You also gain replacements from various events on a regular basis.

The manual, P65, is wrong. Brigades do receive whole elements as replacements, but only 1 per brigade in a turn. So if you have 3 regiments in the brigade that all need whole elements you are better off to split the brigade down so they all receive 1 each, rather than just 1 for the whole brigade.

[caranorn]

Like Ebinford said...

Whether intended or not, Line and Grenadier Depot battalions both give Line (not elite) replacements, and Grenadier are more expensive. In a way it makes sense as Grenadier companies consume Line replacements, but it might be confusing to some...

[PhilThib]

I will check that, but this is strange, as the Depot Grenadier is made of 3 Grenadier companies which, upon completion, transform into 3 replacements for Elite, not line...unless there is a code issue there

[caranorn]

Nope, I've never seen them create elite replacements...

By the way, is it intended that Prussia has a large number of Grenadier Depot Battalions available to build but 0 or 1 of Line? That despite having 0 such battalions on the map. Note, I'm not sure this is still the case in 1.01g, but was the case in 1.01e...

[speakeasy]

If there are only two ways to get replacements (buying options or building depot bns) then I don't know where I'm getting a bunch of replacements (like 10 or more chits) some turns.

For instance early feb 1757 I had only a couple of PRU line infantry replacement chits. Next turn late feb 1757 I had 18 PRU line infantry chits.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

You also gain reinforcements by losing men in battle (1/3 will be back as reinforcements) and due to attrition (2/3 will be back), right? Once your brave men have recovered from injuries, they join their regiments again!


I don't know in detail how this works though. Maybe, when you loose let's say 30 hits in battle, then 10 (1/3) hits are added to your replacement-pool? And 10 Hits are enough for a whole new replacement-element/chit? But these are just adventurous speculations! Did you loose an army in a blizzard in the mountains by chance?

[lodilefty]

If there are only two ways to get replacements (buying options or building depot bns) then I don't know where I'm getting a bunch of replacements (like 10 or more chits) some turns.

For instance early feb 1757 I had only a couple of PRU line infantry replacement chits. Next turn late feb 1757 I had 18 PRU line infantry chits.

Sorry I'm slow to look at this

There ARE several replacement events that give freebies
A big one occurs 4 times in each year, and will do exactly what you describe.... the quantities given diminish as time goes on...

[arsan]

You also gain reinforcements by losing men in battle (1/3 will be back as reinforcements) and due to attrition (2/3 will be back), right? Once your brave men have recovered from injuries, they join their regiments again!


I don't know in detail how this works though. Maybe, when you loose let's say 30 hits in battle, then 10 (1/3) hits are added to your replacement-pool? And 10 Hits are enough for a whole new replacement-element/chit? But these are just adventurous speculations! Did you loose an army in a blizzard in the mountains by chance?

Hi
I'm pretty sure you regain conscript companies, not already formed replacement chits.
Cheers

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Oops. You're absolutely right! I should have looked it up! Sorry!

[speakeasy]

You also gain reinforcements by losing men in battle. Did you loose an army in a blizzard in the mountains by chance?

I did not remember that. Although I have not lost that many men which would explain the huge influx of replacement chits I see.

BTW I know austrians love to climb mountains and yodel on top of them, but in the game it seems that they to do it perhaps a bit too much during the winter.

There ARE several replacement events that give freebies
A big one occurs 4 times in each year, and will do exactly what you describe.... the quantities given diminish as time goes on...

Ahh OK. That explains it then.

[JacquesDeLalaing]

Watch out! Losses in battle or due to attrition are converted to "conscript-companies", not to "replacement-chits"!

There are no mountains in Vienna!

[Ebbingford]

I will check that, but this is strange, as the Depot Grenadier is made of 3 Grenadier companies which, upon completion, transform into 3 replacements for Elite, not line...unless there is a code issue there

The grenadier depot battalions on completion only yield regular replacements and not elite at the moment.

[Pocus]

and before completion, if you open the element detail, they show as what? elite or regular infantry?

[lodilefty]

and before completion, if you open the element detail, they show as what? elite or regular infantry?

Grenadier Depot Bn definitely show as "R" Grenadiers
and definitely become Line Replacements.

test saved game on the way...

[Grouchy]

Think the problem may caused by this, those grenadiers are defined as normal line infantry:

UID = 1
NationTag = CMN
Name = Grenadiers
Alias = mdl_CMN_Gre
Text = $mdl_txt_CMN_Gre
Kind = $Land
SubType = $Regular
Family = $famLine
xxxx
xxxx

Because if you change the bold line of the file 29PRUDepot Gr. Btn in the ROP/GameData/Units directory, in a model of unit that has his FamilyType0 = $famElite you will get the elite replacements:

UID = 29
NationTag = PRU
Name = Depot Gr. Btn
Alias = uni_PRU_Dep0
ShortName = Depot Gr.
ForcePool = 0
Text = $uni_txt_Dep0
Kind = $Land
Color = $colPRUMain
SymbolID = symbol_recruits.png
ModelType0 = $mdl_PRU_Lei0|2
xxxx
xxxx

[lodilefty]

Think the problem may caused by this, those grenadiers are defined as normal line infantry:

UID = 1
NationTag = CMN
Name = Grenadiers
Alias = mdl_CMN_Gre
Text = $mdl_txt_CMN_Gre
Kind = $Land
SubType = $Regular
Family = $famLine
xxxx
xxxx

Because if you change the bold line of the file 29PRUDepot Gr. Btn in the ROP/GameData/Units directory, in a model of unit that has his FamilyType0 = $famElite you will get the elite replacements:

UID = 29
NationTag = PRU
Name = Depot Gr. Btn
Alias = uni_PRU_Dep0
ShortName = Depot Gr.
ForcePool = 0
Text = $uni_txt_Dep0
Kind = $Land
Color = $colPRUMain
SymbolID = symbol_recruits.png
ModelType0 = $mdl_PRU_Lei0|2
xxxx
xxxx

Great finding!!!!!

Will fix for upcoming patch

[Pocus]

I like when so called bugs are solved without me

[daemonofdecay]

Some basic observations/questions about replacements - please correct anything I've got wrong:

Replacements don't accrue by themselves automatically as in WIA.

There are three ways to gain replacements: 1) use EPs to "buy" options which provide them; 2) build depot bns; 3) up to four events per year provide "freebie" replacements but with diminishing frequency and/or number of elements provided as the game goes on.

When the depot bn completes, it converts to 3 replacement elements.

Depot bns only come in two flavors: line and grenadier. At least for now (1.01g) both flavors provide line replacement elements. If you need any other kind of replacement (e.g. elite infantry, artillery or cavalry), you have to get it via an option.

Contrary to what is stated in the manual (p. 65), brigaded units do receive whole elements as replacements, but only one per bde per turn (if you have three regiments in the brigade that all need whole elements you are better off to split the brigade down so they all receive 1 each, rather than just 1 for the whole brigade).

Partially damaged elements will recover strength only if a replacement of the same type is available in the replacement pool, but will do so even if combined with other units in a bde.

Depot bns are more expensive than replacements acquired through options. For example, an element of Austrian line inf costs $5/2C/4WS (and the EPs required to purchase the option, of course). The same element acquired by depot bn costs $12/10C/20WS. The main reason to use depot bns to gain replacements is that an option may be unavailable while depot bns are usually available.

(edit to include information posted below by various people)

Thanks for posting this! I had read through the manual and didn't find anything about the Depot Bns and from the message information had assumed that they only gave reinforcements to units in the same territory as they were built in! I thought I needed my army to be in Berlin or another major Prussian city to get the benefits!

[squarian]

Now that I've had a chance to tinker with RoP a bit, I want to ask about the design philosophy behind including both the EP-option replacements and depot bns for replacements. Any of you AGEOD folks want to discuss this decision?

It seems a bit odd - not necessarily a bad idea, but odd - to have two different ways of gaining replacement elements, with such radically different costs associated. Why not use EP options for purely political/financial/administrative options and the unit build system for all types of replacement? Why depot bns only for infantry and not cav, art, etc. (though admittedly the terminology might have to be fudged: an engineer depot battalion has an odd ring to it)? Just curious about the thinking behind the design here.

[squarian]

AFAICT, HRE and Saxon line depot bns are producing elite replacements?! I keep buying line depot bns, but everytime they finish I end up with more elite replacements and no line inf. I'm conducting a new test to verify.

[lodilefty]

AFAICT, HRE and Saxon line depot bns are producing elite replacements?! I keep buying line depot bns, but everytime they finish I end up with more elite replacements and no line inf. I'm conducting a new test to verify.

Fixed in soon-to-be-released patch

[Nikel]

That patch is approaching so slowly that it will never arrive


I was expecting it for this weekend

And Pangi did not post any portrait

[rezaf]

This issue always bothered me so much in any AGEOD game except AACW, where you had a huge say in which and how many reinforcements you wanted to build. I'm still not entirely sure why they ditched the reinforcements screen that was perfectly serviceable in favor of the respawning events.

My main gripe with the events approach is that it's essentially useless if you had some big battles. The elite inantry training event will give you a single elite infantry replacement, and then it takes ages to respawn.
If you have a whole army that took huge losses in a big offensive, how much difference is a single reinforcement going to make?

Also, playing as both sides you are unable to actually get reinforcements for some of your german allies' units - I remember Prussia cannot get reinforcements for Hessen and Austria for several of it's allies like Bavaria, Wurtemberg or the Palatinat.

I would like events that are much "bigger", but also more expensive. Say, "Infantry draft" that'd get you four units of elite infantry and six units of line infantry, priced accordingly, and similar events for cavalry/heavy cavalry and artillery/heavy artillery.

As for the allies, instead of events for every single german ally, you'd get a "German Reinforcements" equivalent of the events mentioned above, but that'd get you even more reinforcements, but splitted up between the smaller states, with those that are bigger getting more reinforcements.
For example, the german infantry draft as Austria could get you two elite infantry units from the Holy Roman Empire and one each from Bavaria, Wurtemberg, the Palatinat and Saxony, and four line infantry from the HRE plus two line infantry from each of the smaller german allies.

Waiting for the event wouldn't be as painful any longer and if it became available, it would actually be much more worthwile to use.

I'd test this right now, but I don't have the full version of ROP (yet).
If someone else would be willing to playtest this and has the full version, post me the according files and I'd make the adjustments for you - shouldn't be too hard, I modded the reinforcements events in other AGEOD games already.
For example in NCP you got huge amounts of reinforcements for the irregular rebel units but next to none for line and heavy infantry, so I made a infantry training event that turned ten of the militia replacements into five replacements for line infantry (or something similar, I'd have to look up the specifics).
_____
rezaf

[squarian]

Sorry I'm slow to look at this

There ARE several replacement events that give freebies
A big one occurs 4 times in each year, and will do exactly what you describe.... the quantities given diminish as time goes on...

Late Jan. 57, the message window informs me that "You train three Austrian light replacements" and "You train two Austrian cavalry replacements". Am I correct in assuming that these are the replacement events firing?

[lodilefty]

Late Jan. 57, the message window informs me that "You train three Austrian light replacements" and "You train two Austrian cavalry replacements". Am I correct in assuming that these are the replacement events firing?

Those messages are from completion of Military Options you chose to create replacements...

[squarian]

Now that I've had a chance to tinker with RoP a bit, I want to ask about the design philosophy behind including both the EP-option replacements and depot bns for replacements. Any of you AGEOD folks want to discuss this decision?

It seems a bit odd - not necessarily a bad idea, but odd - to have two different ways of gaining replacement elements, with such radically different costs associated. Why not use EP options for purely political/financial/administrative options and the unit build system for all types of replacement? Why depot bns only for infantry and not cav, art, etc. (though admittedly the terminology might have to be fudged: an engineer depot battalion has an odd ring to it)? Just curious about the thinking behind the design here.

Bump - anyone want to lift the veil? Design notes would be gratefully received!

[PhilThib]

The idea was to stick to EP first, but it was discovered during beta test that fine tuning the amount of key replacement through EPs was, at best, touchy.

In addition, the engine has a tendency to assign key line replacement to useless garrisons

I found out also that main use of Replacement was for line and elite, infantry mostly, as those units bear the brunt of losses. So I felt finding a way to add replacement addition through some kind of 'permanent' construction mode could be nice, at least for these two.

At the same time, Pocus came out with the possibility in the code to transform a just built unit into its equivalent of replacement (a feature that we shall use in VGN)...so then we came up with the Depot Batallions...

[andatiep]

It

seems a bit odd - not necessarily a bad idea, but odd - to have two different ways of gaining replacement elements, with such radically different costs associated. Why not use EP options for purely political/financial/administrative options and the unit build system for all types of replacement? Why depot bns only for infantry and not cav, art, etc. (though admittedly the terminology might have to be fudged: an engineer depot battalion has an odd ring to it)? Just curious about the thinking behind the design here.

I also think that EP should be a purely political/financial/administrative domain. More clear for players.

I just discovered the "depot bns" utility reading this thread...
Not reading the manual...
My opinion is that it's hard to get it and i prefer the AACW way : just to buy replacements and let it spread automatically like the supply system (i believed it was not so simple but when i see in ROP i see it was...:neener .