10.3.2 states that supply may travel to a requesting unit or structure as much as 3 regions.
10.4.1 states that to draw supplies a unit must be in or adjacent to a supply producing/storage structure.
Can anyone clarify. Thanks.
Both are corrects, but the assertions does not pertain to the same units.
Supplies can travel to structures or units able to stockpile supply (= wagons) up to 5 regions per supply hop (each supply phase has 3 hops).
Once supply has been shuffled around, then units using up supply can use them if there is a structure or wagon in or adjacent to the region they are in.
That's why you can be out of supply, if you don't have a wagon, just 2 regions away from a big stockpile. Take a wagon with you, which can act as a conduit, and things will be much better: you use it, it requests supplies, you use it, ... etc.
Supplies can travel to structures or units able to stockpile supply (= wagons) up to 5 regions per supply hop (each supply phase has 3 hops).
Once supply has been shuffled around, then units using up supply can use them if there is a structure or wagon in or adjacent to the region they are in.
That's why you can be out of supply, if you don't have a wagon, just 2 regions away from a big stockpile. Take a wagon with you, which can act as a conduit, and things will be much better: you use it, it requests supplies, you use it, ... etc.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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squarian
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Pocus wrote:Supplies can travel to structures or units able to stockpile supply (= wagons) up to 3 regions per supply hop (each supply phase has 3 hops).
Is that cumulative for a total of 9 regions, or three "pushes" with a maximum range of three regions each push? If the former, then the supply "leash" is a pretty good distance!
ATTENTION:
I should not have quoted the manual here (in case of doubt, check the variables in the code!)... It is 5 regions per push, as with all others games, not 3...
And there are 3 pushes. In NCP it was two.
Caranorn is right (you have to correct all your numbers to 5) about the mechanism. And remember, 5 regions is the max distance possible, but often because of bad weather, it is less. There is in fact a kind of movement allowance for wagons. 5 regions can only realistically be reached if the weather is clear and the terrain not too bad. In bad weather and or mountains, you can expect that one push can't go much above 3 regions. I both cases, it can be down to 1-2 regions at most.
I should not have quoted the manual here (in case of doubt, check the variables in the code!)... It is 5 regions per push, as with all others games, not 3...
And there are 3 pushes. In NCP it was two.
Caranorn is right (you have to correct all your numbers to 5) about the mechanism. And remember, 5 regions is the max distance possible, but often because of bad weather, it is less. There is in fact a kind of movement allowance for wagons. 5 regions can only realistically be reached if the weather is clear and the terrain not too bad. In bad weather and or mountains, you can expect that one push can't go much above 3 regions. I both cases, it can be down to 1-2 regions at most.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
per push, if everything is ideal, and if each leg has a stockpile already, then it is possible that a supply point generated in a given region finds itself 15 regions away at the end of the phase. This is very theoretical though.
(and yes each supply point trace physically a path, using either wagon or riverine move) to the various depots and stockpiles.
(and yes each supply point trace physically a path, using either wagon or riverine move) to the various depots and stockpiles.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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JacquesDeLalaing
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Let's consider the following situation (playing Austria):
The Prussians are going to conquer Torgau easily the next turn with their huge army (von Braunschweig) in that region. Torgau is only a level 2 city + level 2 fort, which means that it only produces 20 supply points each turn (Torgau is loyal to Austria). Also, the "distribution"-ability (amount of supply-points that the city is able to distribute to units or send forward to other structures (?) per turn or per supply-hop?) is rather limited. Nevertheless, there are supply wagons in the Prussian army at Torgau, so the "distribution" of supply won't be a big problem for the Prussians. With two supply units of 4 elements each, the Prussians can distribute ca. 180 [20 (Torgau) + 160 (wagons)] supply points each turn (or hop?)?
You can rather hit the Prussians by cutting their supply lines (the path from large supply-producing structures to predominantly supply distributing units/structures or supply-consuming stacks). Let's say I am very optimistic and want to cut the supply line from Brandenburg and Berlin to Torgau. Do I have to block all possible paths from Brandenburg to Torgau or only the "most obvious" one, which is the road (Treuenbrietzen, Herzberg)? In other words: does supply search for alternative paths when the "shortest" path is blocked by the enemy (by means of military control > 75% or by troops)? If it is true that we have to imagine supply move at the speed of supply wagons, then the best region to block the Prussian supply lines is Herzberg, because there is a bridge over the Elbe. I can easily block this region by moving a passive, evading, and well hidden cavalry stack there? Is that correct?
Then again, supply also moves via rivers....
I imagine my hussars standing on the bridge, watching as the Prussian supply-boats float by 
To come to the point: What must I do to block the supply-line from Brandenburg to Torgau? (completely, if possible)
Oh, and I noticed there is a huge supply stock (173) in Torgau, once the town gets besieged!
The Prussians are going to conquer Torgau easily the next turn with their huge army (von Braunschweig) in that region. Torgau is only a level 2 city + level 2 fort, which means that it only produces 20 supply points each turn (Torgau is loyal to Austria). Also, the "distribution"-ability (amount of supply-points that the city is able to distribute to units or send forward to other structures (?) per turn or per supply-hop?) is rather limited. Nevertheless, there are supply wagons in the Prussian army at Torgau, so the "distribution" of supply won't be a big problem for the Prussians. With two supply units of 4 elements each, the Prussians can distribute ca. 180 [20 (Torgau) + 160 (wagons)] supply points each turn (or hop?)?
You can rather hit the Prussians by cutting their supply lines (the path from large supply-producing structures to predominantly supply distributing units/structures or supply-consuming stacks). Let's say I am very optimistic and want to cut the supply line from Brandenburg and Berlin to Torgau. Do I have to block all possible paths from Brandenburg to Torgau or only the "most obvious" one, which is the road (Treuenbrietzen, Herzberg)? In other words: does supply search for alternative paths when the "shortest" path is blocked by the enemy (by means of military control > 75% or by troops)? If it is true that we have to imagine supply move at the speed of supply wagons, then the best region to block the Prussian supply lines is Herzberg, because there is a bridge over the Elbe. I can easily block this region by moving a passive, evading, and well hidden cavalry stack there? Is that correct?
Then again, supply also moves via rivers....
I imagine my hussars standing on the bridge, watching as the Prussian supply-boats float by
To come to the point: What must I do to block the supply-line from Brandenburg to Torgau? (completely, if possible)
Oh, and I noticed there is a huge supply stock (173) in Torgau, once the town gets besieged!
squarian wrote:As I recall, river-borne supply can be interdicted by artillery in AACW - I wonder if that's also true in ROP? The guns had much shorter range, but then the rivers (Donau, Rhin, Elbe, etc) are not as broad as the Mississippi.
Talking about rivers: what's their effect on supply conduits in the game? Do they increase ranges, or facilitate the amount of supply? Historically, untill the development of railroads the run of rivers dictated the direction of many military campaigns in western Europe.
They do not increase supply range per se, but as they are cut to be long, they in the end ease supply endling. Just count 15 regions down the Elbe, you'll see that you go quite far... Also the cost is minimal, so you can always use 5 river regions per push, even in winter.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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JacquesDeLalaing
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JacquesDeLalaing wrote:To come to the point: What must I do to block the supply-line from Brandenburg to Torgau? (completely, if possible)
1. So I have to block the Elbe-River-Section (with entrenched artillery-elements in an adjacent region; also in winter!), as well as the road/region Herzberg? As supply moves at the speed of supply wagons (up to 5 regions in fine weather per "hop" from structure to structure, max. 3 "hops"), it is unlikely that supply crosses the Elbe via "bridgeless" regions? Is that correct? (A supply wagon needs about 5 days to enter a clear region, 3 days to enter a region with major road, 10 days to cross the Elbe without a bridge) So supply searches for alternative paths?
2. I can block region "Herzberg" either by gaining 75% military control, OR by positioning light cavalry with enabled "raiding mode" (i.e. "evade-combat"-order) there. Is that true?
3. Concerning supply, three abilities of structures become important:
First, the ability to produce supply. (large cities are good at that)
Second, the ability to distribute/send forward supply. (depots and wagons are especially good at that)
Third, the ability to store supply. (Depots and wagons are especially good at that)
Example (asumption: there is no preexisting supply stock in any structure/wagons):
It is of no use to have a large depot-city redundant with supply in my hinterland, when my supply line runs through a level 2-city, which only forwards 2x8=16 supply points per turn to my troops (positioned adjacent to the small city)!
If there is a supply wagon (4 elements) with my troops, then they get 80 supply points per turn, but only if the supply wagon is within the reach of the large depot-city (up to 5 regions under good conditions). If not within reach, then the wagon draws only from the smalll level 2-city, thus only 16 supply points will be distributed.
POST Scriptum: Then again: do supply wagons "attract" supply as normal troops do (i.e. only 1 region range) or as structures do (up to 5 regions range)?
About cavalry, the simple fact of switching it to evade combat won't do anything particular on supply travel... Supply is blocked if there is not a minimal military control (25% iirc), on the other hand & implicitly, if you have units (converting to your MC the region) then the supply will be prevented from moving through.
About the max distance travelled by supply wagons. They don't really pay in days, i.e don't take for granted that supply move only at the speed of a wagon during 15 days... supplies use a virtual wagon to check for path, but move much faster. In earlier versions it moved at the speed of a wagon, but the whole system was totally inadequate, with the supply grid not 'dynamic' enough... so it has its own special speed. Here too you have to abstract things... just think of what you can expect for each supply push (2 to 5 regions depending of weather and ground) and don't try to calculate exactly what is feasible with a military wagon.
Also you are mistaking what a structure can produce and what it can forward. A structure can forward any amount, really... its limit is the current stock and what it really want to give (keeping some for the immediate usage).
About the max distance travelled by supply wagons. They don't really pay in days, i.e don't take for granted that supply move only at the speed of a wagon during 15 days... supplies use a virtual wagon to check for path, but move much faster. In earlier versions it moved at the speed of a wagon, but the whole system was totally inadequate, with the supply grid not 'dynamic' enough... so it has its own special speed. Here too you have to abstract things... just think of what you can expect for each supply push (2 to 5 regions depending of weather and ground) and don't try to calculate exactly what is feasible with a military wagon.
Also you are mistaking what a structure can produce and what it can forward. A structure can forward any amount, really... its limit is the current stock and what it really want to give (keeping some for the immediate usage).
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
Pocus wrote:...
Once supply has been shuffled around, then units using up supply can use them if there is a structure or wagon in or adjacent to the region they are in.
...
Two questions on that, also based on the english manual (Chapter 10.4.3):
1. You say the wagons can also supply troops in adjacent regions, but the manual says they can just supply troops in the same region - a very important difference, could you clarify please?
2. You, as well as the manual just lists the supply wagons, so I assume transport ships can't feed my troops?
While I am at it and as it is at least slightly connected to it I'd like to add another question:
Regarding ammo expenditure and replenishment - during a turn, will the units replensih their ammunition from depots/carts after they fought a battle. E.g. a brigade with full supply cart fights on three different days in one turn, will it enter the last fight without ammo or will the combat units replenish their ammo from the cart?
You had me check the code! 
so ... yes (1) is confirmed.
(2): any ship squadron made only of support ships (typically transports) works as a supply wagon.
About your ammo question, for now it won't resupply mid-turn. We need to discuss with the volunteers if this is realistic enough to be included in the next patch, your implied suggestion makes sense to me, at least for a more modern period.
so ... yes (1) is confirmed.
(2): any ship squadron made only of support ships (typically transports) works as a supply wagon.
About your ammo question, for now it won't resupply mid-turn. We need to discuss with the volunteers if this is realistic enough to be included in the next patch, your implied suggestion makes sense to me, at least for a more modern period.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
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JacquesDeLalaing
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Pocus wrote:About cavalry, the simple fact of switching it to evade combat won't do anything particular on supply travel... Supply is blocked if there is not a minimal military control (25% iirc), on the other hand & implicitly, if you have units (converting to your MC the region) then the supply will be prevented from moving through.
Then it would be better to delete the sentence on page 44:
[SIZE="1"]"(Enemy light cavalry units acting as Raiders automatically block all supply from transiting a region in which they are located.)"[/size]
Pocus wrote:A structure can forward any amount, really... its limit is the current stock and what it really want to give (keeping some for the immediate usage).
So this paragraph (p. 44) is also kind of misleading:
[SIZE="1"]"10.3.1 Limitations on Supply Distribution : The amount of supply points that can transit a structure during any given game turn is roughly limited to the production capacity of the structure. For example, a level 8 un-besieged city is able to distribute 64 points of General Supply and 16 points of Ammunition (subject to certain modifiers) in a single game turn. Depots, however, have enhanced abilities to distribute supplies (equal to a level 15 city)."[/size]
I really don't want to drive you crazy with my innumerable meticulous questions, sorry for that! It is just that the game oviously offers a lot of depth, but this depth remains useless to the player when he cannot understand what's going on and how the game works. I think for supply-issues, this problem is especially urging. I still don't understand how I can block supply-lines or preserve my own lines.
PS: I really love the game, otherwise I would't do this: german AAR with lots of self-explaining pictures
All I miss is a detailed manual.
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JacquesDeLalaing
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Another situation appeared which I didn’t understand. So I loaded the ai-opponents’ saves.
Here are two pictures for illustration:
TURN 1
TURN 2:
Turn 1:
Before turn 1 starts, Gessler is fully supplied. When turn 1 starts, he consumes 75 supply and fills up his inherent supply-stock. Therefore he probably draws from the supply wagon (80/80) in the adjacent region Elster. During turn 1, Gessler crosses the Elbe from Grossenhain to Oschatz in 5 days. Then he moves on to Dresden, where he beats a small Austrian cavalry detachement which I moved there. (Actually it managed to retreat before Gesslers Force in Oschatz and thus automatically moved to Dresden, where Gessler confronted it again and destroyed it... yes, my detachement had an "evade combat"-order, but obviously it had no chance to evade 12000 cavalry? )
Turn 2:
Before turn 2 starts, Gessler’s general supply stock is full (because he refilled his supplies at the start of turn 1). We also see that some supplies of the wagon in Elster have been spent (supply stock of wagon: 52/80) - so I think Gessler indeed filled up his supply-stock in turn 1 by using this supply source. Due to the battle against my cavalry, Gesslers ammo-supply is at half (but it can theoretically be refilled at the start of turn 2!). Still I wonder why the region Dresden has been pillaged.
As far as I know, supply is distributed and consumed at the beginning of a game turn, and there were no Stacks in Dresden out of supply at that point (and not even at any other moment during the game-turn).
Here are two pictures for illustration:
TURN 1
TURN 2:
Turn 1:
Before turn 1 starts, Gessler is fully supplied. When turn 1 starts, he consumes 75 supply and fills up his inherent supply-stock. Therefore he probably draws from the supply wagon (80/80) in the adjacent region Elster. During turn 1, Gessler crosses the Elbe from Grossenhain to Oschatz in 5 days. Then he moves on to Dresden, where he beats a small Austrian cavalry detachement which I moved there. (Actually it managed to retreat before Gesslers Force in Oschatz and thus automatically moved to Dresden, where Gessler confronted it again and destroyed it... yes, my detachement had an "evade combat"-order, but obviously it had no chance to evade 12000 cavalry?
)
Turn 2:
Before turn 2 starts, Gessler’s general supply stock is full (because he refilled his supplies at the start of turn 1). We also see that some supplies of the wagon in Elster have been spent (supply stock of wagon: 52/80) - so I think Gessler indeed filled up his supply-stock in turn 1 by using this supply source. Due to the battle against my cavalry, Gesslers ammo-supply is at half (but it can theoretically be refilled at the start of turn 2!). Still I wonder why the region Dresden has been pillaged.
As far as I know, supply is distributed and consumed at the beginning of a game turn, and there were no Stacks in Dresden out of supply at that point (and not even at any other moment during the game-turn).
The rules state that supply is checked at start of turn, but I don't quite believe that to be *only* at start of turn Even with zero supplies around a stack is only "partially unsupplied" at start of turn, and the get no adverse effects if they get to a valid supply-line (the move to a depot/wagon during the turn, or a wagon moves to them). However, if no supplies are around at the end of turn either, then the stack will be totally out of supply and the elements will all be red. I firmly believe supplies are checked at the end of the turn too, but if my belief is wrong I would like to be corrected by those in the knowledge
Even with zero supplies around a stack is only "partially unsupplied" at start of turn, and the get no adverse effects if they get to a valid supply-line (the move to a depot/wagon during the turn, or a wagon moves to them). However, if no supplies are around at the end of turn either, then the stack will be totally out of supply and the elements will all be red. I firmly believe supplies are checked at the end of the turn too, but if my belief is wrong I would like to be corrected by those in the knowledge There are three kinds of people: Those who can can count and those who can't.
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JacquesDeLalaing
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Why are you saying so You are right, it is important to clearly understand all the mechanics behind the rules.
As Pocus explained, pillage can also result from a battle (e.g. when the soldiers loot the battlefield)... If you consider the size of your Prussian opponent's force, which has something like 50+ elements, and yours, this is a 5% chance per round of battle to get a pillage during combat...
You are right, it is important to clearly understand all the mechanics behind the rules.
As Pocus explained, pillage can also result from a battle (e.g. when the soldiers loot the battlefield)... If you consider the size of your Prussian opponent's force, which has something like 50+ elements, and yours, this is a 5% chance per round of battle to get a pillage during combat...
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JacquesDeLalaing
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