Supply--still seem unable to do it right

[Heldenkaiser]

A few months ago I desperately asked for help to make me understand supply. That was late in 1863 and my armies were starving in AL. (See old thread.)

Back then the answers basically were (a) depots, depots, depots; (b) don't put too many troops in one location; (c) don't fight in winter.

Alright. I have taken all this advice to heart. I built depots. Lots of 'em. Basically in every other hex from my port all the way along the railroad to the front. In fact, I have now two railroads in my rear, each one with ample depots.

I also spread my troops over different regions as much as possible. As a rule, unless I want to attack immediately next turn, I have only one corps in a region at any one time.

And after I had rebuilt my armies that had starved in winter, I came back to fight in the summer. It's now June 1864.

Tell you what. My armies are STILL starving for lack of supplies.

What the hell am I doing wrong?

The only educated guess at an answer I can make from recalling what was said in the earlier thread would be "you're still stretching it a bit". Yes, I still have corps just as large as I can build them, with a power of 2,500 - 3,500. And I have five of these monsters based on those two RR lines.

But if that's too much, then plainly I can't see how I should ever be able to overcome my opponent's defenses. Because he, too, has stacks about 3,000 strong in every hex along the frontline. And his men don't seem to starve ...

Any more suggestions other than those already quoted above? Because I am plainly despairing now about ever learning this game well enough to win it. Although I really thought I had understood it now, supply still kills me. At least wherever I try to achieve a numerical superiority against my opponent's formidable main army.

[arsan]

Just wild guessing but...
you say you have depots leading to a port. So it seems you have all this huge invasion army with no supply land route to your own territory. Is it so?
Not too expert on naval invasions but maybe its a too big an army to supply by sea...
As i guess you surely have tons of transport on the shipping box, don't you??

[enf91]

1. Not a supply issue, just a stuff issue. Too many depots. Supply will transfer at least 3 regions per turn, so "every other" is just an inefficient use of resources.
2. This is even more important than the 3 answers you got earlier. Check your rail/river transport capacity at the top of the screen. If you're within 1 turn of fully-stocked depots, having them at 1/3 should suffice -- temporarily. Ideally, you should get them to 3/3 so you can transport troops without interfering with supply. If you don't have a good transport network, depots are useless because supplies can't move fast enough along the path.
3. You mentioned something about a port. Is this an amphibious operation? If so, the port should have a depot and your blue-water transport capacity should be at least in the triple digits.

[Banks6060]

It's likely the port you have as your "Supply Base" in the theater...can't handle the load of supplies your troops need. For an army the size of which you're using...you'd be hard pressed to find ANY port on the map that could support it all by itself.

For any army that size...you need droves upon droves of supply that come from your home states and wind their way south through your supply network. Ocean transports and harbors alone will never manage to supply an army that large.

Your opponent isn't suffering such problems because he's drawing supplies from the rest of the south.

I'd say a good guage for knowing what kind of force strength can be supported by any given port is using it's "Port Size Number". If it's a size "1"...don't expect to be able to supply more than a division or two.

Size 4--you can probably keep a fully stocked Corps...30,000 + men fully supplied.

Size 10--Anywhere between 50 and 60,000 troops would be well supplied with this I think...perhaps three medium sized Corps. Basically a good sized field army.

But a 150,000 + mammoth like you have roaming around Alabama...will never survive unless you take practically the entire Gulf Coast...and then build a proper supply network to support it.

NOTE: Someone can correct me on those Port Size-Unit Size ratios if they want to...but that's about how I see it.

[GraniteStater]

I think you're on the right track. I haven't even read the thread in detail, but the OP posted before about this situation he's got.

* It's a bottleneck, essentially. You could build 20 Tramsports and put them in the Shipping Box and it still might clog up at the debarking port.

* How many Southern ports are big enough to handle 100,000 men? Not too many - New Orleans, maybe.

Also,

* Keep TPs moored at the port (attract Supply).

* I'm willing to state for a fact at this point that you need a Depot at the debarking port(s).

* Keep at least one Wagon with any formations that are important, cutting loose from bases, etc. Wagon up!

My approach right now is probably a tad wasteful and redundant, but that's how I handle Supply. I advocate the Paranoid School of Logistics in AACW.

[MrT]

Have you any eco control in alabama? and have you built up the supply base in the regions closest to the front with maximal industry?
if its all coming from NY your gonna have problems.. get it coming out of TN or Missi! or if possible Ala, if you have Mobile or so captured then i think you can build homegrown industry. Every penny helps.

[cobraII]

Another idea would be to build a few transport ships and move back and forth manually resupplying, might help ease some of the problems never done this before so I am not sure how much it help but it might do some good.

[Heldenkaiser]

Just wild guessing but...
you say you have depots leading to a port. So it seems you have all this huge invasion army with no supply land route to your own territory. Is it so?
Not too expert on naval invasions but maybe its a too big an army to supply by sea...
As i guess you surely have tons of transport on the shipping box, don't you??

Thanks, Arsan.
There are two supply routes actually. Or in fact there's more, since they both branch out into the vast territory I hold in the South, basically all of MS and most of AL. But the shortest route, yes, is the RR back to Pensacola. Of course there's Mobile too in the rear of that route. Then there is the lateral west/east rail from Jackson MS into AL. It draws supplies via Mobile & New Orleans but also through TN from KY and IL. At least that's my guess. The game doesn't really tell me.

There is tons of transports in the shipping box, yes. Something like 4,000 worth? And there are depots in the ports and all along the way. There is supply building up in the rear, but it's getting less and less the closer you get to the frontlines. In spite of RRs and depots and stuff.

[Heldenkaiser]

1. Not a supply issue, just a stuff issue. Too many depots. Supply will transfer at least 3 regions per turn, so "every other" is just an inefficient use of resources.
2. This is even more important than the 3 answers you got earlier. Check your rail/river transport capacity at the top of the screen. If you're within 1 turn of fully-stocked depots, having them at 1/3 should suffice -- temporarily. Ideally, you should get them to 3/3 so you can transport troops without interfering with supply. If you don't have a good transport network, depots are useless because supplies can't move fast enough along the path.
3. You mentioned something about a port. Is this an amphibious operation? If so, the port should have a depot and your blue-water transport capacity should be at least in the triple digits.

Thanks.
ad 1. - But it does not actually hurt, yes?
ad 2. - It's always 3/3. If I'd get into a 2/3 with a rail move, I don't order it.
ad 3. - See my reply to Arsan. Sea transport is involved, but not exclusively. But yes, there are depots in the ports.

[Heldenkaiser]

But a 150,000 + mammoth like you have roaming around Alabama...will never survive unless you take practically the entire Gulf Coast...and then build a proper supply network to support it.

Thank you, Banks. - Well, see my earlier replies. I hold the Gulf Coast from New Orleans beyond Pensacola. Taking FL as well won't likely help me any. I also hold all of MS and most of AL as well as the flat part of TN, so there is a land supply line as well. There's depots, there's railroads ... what else can I do?

Regarding army size, as I said, I do see that one would have problems supplying such an army under the best conditions. But if my opponent builds armies this size (we seem to have about even numbers along the Chattahoochee), what choice do I have? I'd love to conquer the South with 80,000 men, but if Lee has 400,000?

(BTW, I never thought of asking, but how realiable are these numbers for enemy strengths? :confused

[Heldenkaiser]

* Keep TPs moored at the port (attract Supply).
* I'm willing to state for a fact at this point that you need a Depot at the debarking port(s).
* Keep at least one Wagon with any formations that are important, cutting loose from bases, etc. Wagon up!

I have all that. The transports might be away for a turn doing some troop shuttling, but basically that's exactly the reason why I have a handful in every port I hold. Depots and wagons are there.

[Heldenkaiser]

Have you any eco control in alabama? and have you built up the supply base in the regions closest to the front with maximal industry?
if its all coming from NY your gonna have problems.. get it coming out of TN or Missi! or if possible Ala, if you have Mobile or so captured then i think you can build homegrown industry. Every penny helps.

Now that's a new thought! I haven't tried that but I will, thank you!

[Heldenkaiser]

Another idea would be to build a few transport ships and move back and forth manually resupplying, might help ease some of the problems never done this before so I am not sure how much it help but it might do some good.

A good thought too--prey how's it done? Thanks.

[GraniteStater]

Heldenkaiser,

* cobraII's suggestion might not work. If you look around the Wiki & this forum, I don't think there is a way to "manually resupply" by sea. I don't recall TPs of any kind having the same GS/Ammo info on a mouseover or whatnot that a Wagon does. I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the only way Supply is disbursed via blue water is through the Shipping box.

* I read about some people advocating building Industry in KY at a certain point to make frontline Supply easier. I've done it now a couple of times, so investing in some Indy in captured territory is probably effective.

* Redundancy is not a bad idea & I see you agree.

I truly think your main problem is that Southern ports can't handle your demands. It might well be that a Union player needs to supply very large formations out of New Orleans.

[Jim-NC]

Heldenkaiser,
Could you post some screen shots? with the supply filter on? It could help to determine what is going on with your force. Where the supply is, and is not.

[soloswolf]

A good thought too--prey how's it done? Thanks.

I don't think they'll 'give up' their supply/ammo to a port or depot they land in. Same as a wagon won't 'give up' it's supply or ammo.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[cobraII]

I was not sure if that would work it just seemed like you could. well then i guess you could shuffle troops on board those transports in off, if needed, but if its a pbem against and opponent it be risky.

[Heldenkaiser]

Heldenkaiser,
Could you post some screen shots? with the supply filter on? It could help to determine what is going on with your force. Where the supply is, and is not.

I will, when I play the next turn. Firing up the game takes so long on my seven-year old machine ...

[GraniteStater]

I will, when I play the next turn. Firing up the game takes so long on my seven-year old machine ...

Ya gotta change the hamster and install new rubber bands...

[Heldenkaiser]

Here is the promised snapshot, showing the supply situation as I see it ... the two corps south of the army HQ (Grant) are presently about half supplied; the two corps north of Grant are out and will start starving next turn.

Any comments?

[It's a Trap]

The problem is that it's Alabama. The lack of infanstructure is just unable to pump the supplies nessessary. Like people have said try and investing heavily into AL industry. And I don't know the tactical situation but, the northern corps arent getting supplies from route B cause there are mountains all aound there. If its possible I'd pull them to TN and force a new route south from Chattanooga once you got a nashville - Chattangooga line running


EDIT: And your Depot at Butler AL isn't pushing supplies cause the zone is red. That might explain why selma isn't getting much supply

[Heldenkaiser]

The problem is that it's Alabama. The lack of infanstructure is just unable to pump the supplies nessessary. Like people have said try and investing heavily into AL industry.

That was a completely new thought to me, but I have started doing it that turn. (And MS and KY too.) (I thought I could invest only in my home states.)

And I don't know the tactical situation but, the northern corps arent getting supplies from route B cause there are mountains all aound there. If its possible I'd pull them to TN and force a new route south from Chattanooga once you got a nashville - Chattangooga line running

Yeah, I fought over Chattanooga for the past three turns and have it now, inclusive of a depot already in place. With depots in Nashville and Winchester, I hope to see some supply coming through there from next turn. Providing Meade and Hancock are still alive.

EDIT: And your Depot at Butler AL isn't pushing supplies cause the zone is red. That might explain why selma isn't getting much supply

That's a CSA depot I think. But as I said on the map, I suppose I ought to have one in Meridian. I noticed that missing link only when I edited that screenshot.

[Heldenkaiser]

But still, you know, will all that really make enough of a difference? The supply shortfall seems to be--to understate the case a little--GIGANTIC.

[cobraII]

I was just looking at thet aacw wiki, and If you go to the index and click on depots and then scroll down the page it shows manual supply, it says "

Naval Units
Fleets at sea can replenish general supply from adjacent land regions with a stockpile, but they can only replenish ammunition in ports.
[color="Navy"]Naval transport units can also be used to manually transport general supply for troops located in adjacent coastal regions, similar to supply wagons. [/color]

Note: Any naval transport unit in the union shipping box will also help shuffling supply to coastal regions."

So manual supply is possible by sea. Now does that include regions that are not coastal though i.e. along a river??

[It's a Trap]

mmm I see the union flag over that depot. Either way I'd rush to take it cause it would give you a little break extra supplies in the area and while not as effective as one would be in Meridian it would plug the gap.


Edit: If it was CSA's then I dont think the supplies in store would show up for you.

[enf91]

Build a depot at Selma. It has lots of supplies, but it isn't sending them to your troops because it's only a level 1 city. If there isn't a depot at Montgomery, put one there too. And increase your MC in the region just SE of Meridian.

[It's a Trap]

Build a depot at Selma. It has lots of supplies, but it isn't sending them to your troops because it's only a level 1 city. If there isn't a depot at Montgomery, put one there too. And increase your MC in the region just SE of Meridian.

It's hard to see, but I think both cities have depots cause without a depot they wouldn't stock that many supplies/ammo.

[enf91]

I think you're right. Then I don't know what's happening.

[It's a Trap]

I think the supplies in North and West MS aren't moving cause of the gap at Meridian. And because of that all the supplies are trying to push through Montgomery from the coast. Even when the depot comes online around Taladega it might not be enough up north cause of all the Mountains and lack of RR or rivers.