Division Question.

[MrT]

Does An artillery reserve e.g. W.N Pendletons Command in the Army of .N.V count as a division in this instantance?
And are we searching for divisions that are unique or does a division with multiple commanders count multiple times, e.g. Ewells nee Lawton nee Earlys Division?

[Vegetius]

Hum, i don't understand well the question. Are you talking about a commander stacked with a single unit ? If you have not clicked the button to form division (cost : 5$/1Manpower/2WS), it is only a commanded brigade, even with one regiment, and does not count in the division total.

And a division can only have one commander, i think you make a mistake between division and stack. In a stack, you can have a lot of units or commanders with a huge command penalty but a division needs to be formed with a single commander and up to 17 units. That is the only way to gather many units without command penalty (except Corps later).

Hope it helps .

[MrT]

was more a research question . Am trying to work out if i can more divisions out the game without ''cheating''.

But thanks for the nice answer anyway.

[Vegetius]

Good luck !

I have never tried to form more division but it could be great to have several more ! In all games i have experienced, i have always been limited by a lack of money and WS, not really by men.

[MrT]

thanks .

[MrT]

mm this is complex.. For example now i have Kershaws Division which is nearly the same as Mclaws division except it contains some different units, but 60% or so is the same composition, is this a ''new division'' or a division with a new commander?

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[arsan]

mm this is complex.. For example now i have Kershaws Division which is nearly the same as Mclaws division except it contains some different units, but 60% or so is the same composition, is this a ''new division'' or a division with a new commander?

You mean you dissolved McLaws division and used some of the units to form Kershaws??
As long as Kershaws keeps some unit with him and is still formed as a division they will count as two divisions.
You can freely change the composition of divisions as you want. Its the leader "enabled" as division commander what counts.
But be aware that if you leave a divisional commander alone (with no attached units) and process a turn he will lose his status (so you will "lose" the money and WS you spent making him a divisional commander :bonk .

So, basically, you are allowed to have 30/60 divisional commanders enabled at the same time. It doesn't matter if you change the units composition of his divisions as you want as long as all have some unit attached to them at turns end.

EDIT: to make things clearer: its the leader what matters for divsions, not the units.
So you can change unist compositions of divisions as you want but can't swap leaders as this will suppose disbanding a divisions and forming a new one ... and this cost money and WS.


Hope it helps!

[MrT]

outside, i want accuratly establish the number of divisions that existed using the game rules, as i feel that surely the Rebels had more than 30 divisions, i did a quick scan of things and came out with 37 in half an hour.. some of these are doubled so now i need to get techincal. Unfortunatly this had lead to me finding some more divisions but they have a % of like units with other divisions....

So basically i need to know how the game would classify an orginal division?

[MrT]

okay this a research thread, not a ingame thread :P.

edit1+2: for in-game accuracy. Just wish to understand the game rules on defining a division, so i can give myself extra divisions or not depending on the outcome.

[arsan]

okay this a research thread, not a ingame thread :P.

Then you can safely ignore my post

[Rafiki]

okay this a research thread, not a ingame thread :P.

[color="Blue"]Then let's move it to the History Club for now [/color]

[MrT]

mmm good idea sir!

[Rafiki]

Schguet!

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[MrT]

no i ment from just historical Real life sources. The problem is though i have some that are ''duplicated'', so how did you decide to say the CSA has 30 divisions, what rules were applied?
When i know what rules were applied then i can research the information further too see if i can expand the number of allowed divisions for the CSA. (for my personal use primarly but i would share my findings here if you would wish so).

At the moment i have about 45 divisions with different names, however at least 5 of them are the same division with a new commander appointed. But then there is a few that are 60% of an different division but with a new leader and name. Is that by game rules a NEW division or just an old one reformed under a new leader?

[Vegetius]

In fact, none division is given during the game but some elite brigades .

We can consider that a lot of "real" divisions were not fully manpowered, wich explains what we cannot build more than 30 divisions in the game.

To represent this, i often use the Tennesse or Virginian big brigades (with 6 or 7 elements) to reinforce my Corps.

In my opinion, the ratio of 2/1 for Union is quite historical.

[MrT]

But in the game i often myself with 30 full confederate divisions and then quite a few divisionless and thus command point heavy forces. As you say they never had full full divisions, but a division was not a set number of men anyhow, i believe. And if the real manpower of the limit only gave them ''30'' say, why in game when ive managed my manpower more effectively to allow me to create 40 divisions should i not be allowed to create that many? The game isnt so ridged on other aspects of the history, i dont fully understand why it is on this?
So in my view i think if i can find 38 divisions say, then thats a good reason to increase the number of divisions. (not for everyone but for me personally) But i need to know how to establish if the division is classed as new or not.
Of course i will eventually do the same for the union as well so the increase is comparable.

[arsan]

It has been discussed a thousand times. Do as search on the forum and you will fine lots of threads about it
In the end, the division limits is a game design decision and the game developers had stated that they want to keep it in.
If you don't like it, of course you just can mod the game to give you as many division as you want.

I think this division limit want to reflect the fact that in the the real war not all the troops (probably nor even half) where organized as effective fighting front line divisions and armies. Many were rear area garrisons, state militias, reserve formations, depot and second line troops... because of logistical, political or organizational reasons. Lincoln and Davis didn't have the free hand
or the micromanaging and meddling abilities of AACW players

I really prefer the limit over having completely unhistorical dozen of 150.000 men strong armies perfectly organized and without no command penalty moving around the map.
But to each his own.
Cheers!

[soloswolf]

It has been discussed a thousand times. Do as search on the forum and you will fine lots of threads about it
In the end, the division limits is a game design decision and the game developers had stated that they want to keep it in.
If you don't like it, of course you just can mod the game to give you as many division as you want.

I think this division limit want to reflect the fact that in the the real war not all the troops (probably nor even half) where organized as effective fighting front line divisions and armies. Many were rear area garrisons, state militias, reserve formations, depot and second line troops... because of logistical, political or organizational reasons. Lincoln and Davis didn't have the free hand
or the micromanaging and meddling abilities of AACW players

I really prefer the limit over having completely unhistorical dozen of 150.000 men strong armies perfectly organized and without no command penalty moving around the map.
But to each his own.
Cheers!

+1

[Rafiki]

+2

[Franciscus]

-1 (and I will not say more beacuse I promised so )

[MrT]

It has been discussed a thousand times. Do as search on the forum and you will fine lots of threads about it
In the end, the division limits is a game design decision and the game developers had stated that they want to keep it in.
If you don't like it, of course you just can mod the game to give you as many division as you want.

I think this division limit want to reflect the fact that in the the real war not all the troops (probably nor even half) where organized as effective fighting front line divisions and armies. Many were rear area garrisons, state militias, reserve formations, depot and second line troops... because of logistical, political or organizational reasons. Lincoln and Davis didn't have the free hand
or the micromanaging and meddling abilities of AACW players

I really prefer the limit over having completely unhistorical dozen of 150.000 men strong armies perfectly organized and without no command penalty moving around the map.
But to each his own.
Cheers!

-2. yes i understand that :P. But that was'nt the question .

[arsan]

But in the game i often myself with 30 full confederate divisions and then quite a few divisionless and thus command point heavy forces. As you say they never had full full divisions, but a division was not a set number of men anyhow, i believe. And if the real manpower of the limit only gave them ''30'' say, why in game when ive managed my manpower more effectively to allow me to create 40 divisions should i not be allowed to create that many? The game isnt so ridged on other aspects of the history, i dont fully understand why it is on this?
So in my view i think if i can find 38 divisions say, then thats a good reason to increase the number of divisions. (not for everyone but for me personally) But i need to know how to establish if the division is classed as new or not.
Of course i will eventually do the same for the union as well so the increase is comparable.

Sorry but yes, it was the question.
Look at the bold part of your quote.
You asked why and i answered why to the best of my ability and knowledge

[MrT]

that was a secondary question!

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[W.Barksdale]

Divisions in VA\TN\MS are readily available in most civil war history books. I just used Shelby Footes Narrative for the more well known. Here are references for divisions in the departments of Texas and the Gulf.

pg. 29 Series 1, Volume XXVI Part 2.
pg.84 Series 1, Volume XXVI, Part 2
pg.132 Series 1, Volume XXVI, Part 2.
Official Records

There are 36 listed below. Keep in mind that another 3 divisions were surrendered at Fort Donelson under Buckner, Johnson, and Floyd and were taken prisoner. This count of 39 active formations is at the peak of soutern manpower and I can't imagine that any more were formed beyond this.

I'd appreciate any help with some rebel commanders that I am yet to identify as well as an overview of the Federal division count.

Virginia
Lee with 10 divisions under Hood, McClaws, Pickett, Early, Johnson, Rhodes, Anderson, Heth, Pender, JEB (cav)

Tennessee
Bragg with 6 divisions under AP Stewart & Jones M. Withers (Polk's Corps), Cleburne & Cheatham (Hardee's Corps), Wheeler(cav), Forrest(cav).

Buckner with 2 divisions (detached from Bragg) (under William Preston and Bushrod R. Johnson?)

Mississippi
Johnston with 5 divisions around about Jackson, under Breckinridge and WHT Walker (both detached from Bragg), (Thomas James Churchill?) another from Bory in SC (commander?), and 1 cavalry division ( Mouton?)

Pemberton around Vicksburg with 5 divisions under Loring, Stevenson, Bowen, Smith, Forney.

Arkansas
Holmes with 2 divisions under Price, Marmaduke(cav),


Louisiana
2 divisions under Taylor, John Walker in West Louisiana
1 at Port Hudson under Gardner

Department of the Gulf
2 divisions under Maury?, Cantey

Texas
1 division under H.P Bee at Brownsville
1 division around Galveston (commander?)

See also:

Does anyone have access to these books ?

The Union Army,1861-65 :
The Eastern Theater v.1:Organization and Operations

and

The Union Army,1861-65 :
The Western Theater v.2:Organization and Operations

both by Frank J. Welcher

...and this one ?

"Units of the Confederate States Army"

by Joseph H. Crute

[MrT]

yes im trying to do what barksdale is doing :-).

[MrT]

The other texas division is

J.G Walkers division nicknamed Texas Greyhounds, but you seem to have him in west lousiana so im not sure anymore.

edit: what timezone did you use for this any particular year? Or the whole war in general?