Supply help please

[Heldenkaiser]

I have an army in AL with a combined power of ca. 14,000 and I can't manage to keep it supplied. All my corps are constantly low on supplies and now I am starting to lose strength due to that. I have an overland supply line through TN and MS (though it is a bit circuitous), but I would expect the bulk of the supplies to come the short way over the sea through Pensacola. There is a rail line and enough cities on the way to forward the supplies, and there are wagons with the army, but the supplies don't seem to arrive in sufficient numbers. I have an awful number of transports in the Atlantic shipping box, and the transport section tooltip says I can transport 4980 (what ever the unit is) over the sea. That sounds a lot, and anyway I can't build many more transports than I already have.

So, what am I doing wrong? Or is this army simply too large to be in one place and still be supplied? If so, I can accept that ... but I'd like to know.

Any help would be most appreciated. At the moment, it's rather frustrating to be practically on the threshold of the Confederacy's backdoor with an overwhelming force and seeing it dwindle away due to supply issues.

[77NY]

Sounds like you need to get to a depot asap.

[Redeemer]

Post a game file and lets have a look. But a depot probably can't hurt.

[Banks6060]

Depots man...depots. Cities aren't enough to get the job done...even if their large ones. Yeah they'll forward supplies to you...but you may not have enough rail capacity to suck the supplies from them if they're more than 5 or 10 regions away. You need more depots my friend.

[Big Muddy]

I'm not sure, but I think depots cover three regions, if you are forced to build in open make sure to leave a force for deffensive purposes.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Major Tom]

Great news, Gray. Building depots with wagons is insanely expensive. It's too bad this fix will make it even cheaper to build depots with river transports, though, since that definitely doesn't need to be made cheaper. But I guess if it has to based on the number of elements there's no way to change one without changing the other.

[soundoff]

Building depots with wagons is insanely expensive.

Strange but I'm probably one of the few who like the cost of building depots to be 'insanely expensive'. Rather than taking down the cost of wagons if I had my way it would be to increase the cost of river and ocean depot construction. My reasoning is the cost of depots is one of the few ways of keeping the Union 'in check' so to speak. Oh and in similar fashion I'd make it impossible for a Corp and above to move in enemy territory without a supply train .

[Big Muddy]

On the subject of Depots:

Just this morning I had a discussion with Pocus. I pointed out that the rule requiring 2 supply units to build a depot has the following resource costs depending on which supply type unit you use to build the depot. I also asked him if this was an intentional design. His reply was NO, the code should be looking at elements not units. He's looking into changing this to look at a requirement of 4 supply elements not 2 supply units.

Current resource cost to build a depot:

Ocean Transports (2 units w/2 elements) = $20, 4 Conscripts, 12 War supplies
River Transports (2 units w/4 elements) = $32, 8 Conscripts, 16 War supplies
Wagon Supply (2 units w/4 elements) = $80, 48 Conscripts, 48 War supplies

Future (after an update) cost to build a depot:

Ocean Transports (2 units w/2 elements) = $20, 4 Conscripts, 12 War supplies
River Transports (1 unit w/4 elements) = $16, 4 Conscripts, 8 War supplies
Wagon Supply (1 units w/4 elements) = $40, 24 Conscripts, 24 War supplies

As you can see, this should help out tremendously in building depots especially where a wagon supply unit is necessary.

I prefer it as is, but if a change were to happenm how about this.

"Current resource cost to build a depot" make this Union
Ocean Transports (2 units w/2 elements) = $20, 4 Conscripts, 12 War supplies
River Transports (2 units w/4 elements) = $32, 8 Conscripts, 16 War supplies
Wagon Supply (2 units w/4 elements) = $80, 48 Conscripts, 48 War supplies

"Future (after an update) cost to build a depot" and this for CSA
Ocean Transports (2 units w/2 elements) = $20, 4 Conscripts, 12 War supplies
River Transports (1 unit w/4 elements) = $16, 4 Conscripts, 8 War supplies
Wagon Supply (1 units w/4 elements) = $40, 24 Conscripts, 24 War supplies

Just a thought, I still would rather it stay as is.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[soundoff]

LOL, The preceding few post (ahead of this one) are absolute proof that it would never be possible to design a game by open forum... Pure chaos would result.

Totally agree. Mind you announcing a proposed future change in the open forums kinda invites comment, both positive and negative would'nt you say?

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[77NY]

However, if I were asking, it would have been impossible to reach a consensus... This is rather humorous to me...

I disagree. It IS possible to reach a consensus. But what is a consensus? Let's discuss.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[Major Tom]

So the first major consensus we need is a consensus on what constitutes a consensus. Sounds perfectly logical to me. What we really need here is a female mind to bring order to all our consensus reaching.

This is sounding too much like almost every business "team" project I['ve been involved with. The more people on the team, the slower the decision making and weaker the final product, because it's had every hint of innovation beaten out of it.

The above two posts also remind me how so many business team projects end up focusing more on "process" than results.

[soundoff]

However, if I were asking, it would have been impossible to reach a consensus... This is rather humorous to me...

Never thought you were asking Gray....why change the habits of a lifetime

[77NY]

What we really need here is a female mind to bring order to all our consensus reaching.

Absolutely. We need diverse viewpoints. Given the cultural sensitivities around the whole "Civil War thing," I think we should effort to put together a diverse team. Here are some items I would like to put on the agenda:

1. AACW or AWONA (Ageod's American Civil War vs. Ageod's War of Northern Aggression)?
2. "Indian fighter" vs. "Native American Genocide-bringer"?
3. Token Latino representation in officer corps
4. Complete lack of female voices in game messages/events
5. Insensitive portrayal of disabled generals as being less able to command effectively.
6. Re-think the whole "AACW" concept and possibly replace with interactive on-line "Ageod's Let's Celebrate American Diversity!" game. Probably far less addicting than current game concept. And less violent.

[Major Tom]

5. Insensitive portrayal of disabled generals as being less able to command effectively.

It's not "disabled" any more. It's "differently abled." Didn't you get the memo?

[Heldenkaiser]

Interesting to see how an innocent question can spark a debate like this ...

But forgive me if I'm being dumb, Gentlemen ... what exactly does a depot do for me if the supplies never arrive in Pensacola in the first place? Or so it seems to me, as there are no or only an insignificant number of general supply icons on the supply filter map there, or anywhere in between ... if forwarding were the problem, would they not keep piling up in the rear?

And for another thing, the distance from port to army is really quite short. Thomas ran out completely in Troy, AL, and that I believe is no more than two hexes from a RR and no more than four from Pensacola. Shouldn't supply be able to travel this short distance no matter what? Or do I really have to plaster the map with depots like that? I never had this problem before I crossed into AL ... from the KY border all the way to the sea, my armies were supplied just fine, with I believe only two depots ever built, one halfway from New Orleans to Jackson and one somewhere south of Corinth.

When I get home tonight, I will gladly post a file for more knowledgeable people to have a look ... and maybe they will be so kind as to enlighten me.

[arsan]

Absolutely. We need diverse viewpoints. Given the cultural sensitivities around the whole "Civil War thing," I think we should effort to put together a diverse team. Here are some items I would like to put on the agenda:

1. AACW or AWONA (Ageod's American Civil War vs. Ageod's War of Northern Aggression)?
2. "Indian fighter" vs. "Native American Genocide-bringer"?
3. Token Latino representation in officer corps
4. Complete lack of female voices in game messages/events
5. Insensitive portrayal of disabled generals as being less able to command effectively.
6. Re-think the whole "AACW" concept and possibly replace with interactive on-line "Ageod's Let's Celebrate American Diversity!" game. Probably far less addicting than current game concept. And less violent.

We already have nº 3: Meade was born in Cádiz, Spain. Could that count as "token Latino representation"??
4: I strongly disagree!. Both genders are equally represented: zero male voices; zero female voices

[soloswolf]

Interesting to see how an innocent question can spark a debate like this ...

But forgive me if I'm being dumb, Gentlemen ... what exactly does a depot do for me if the supplies never arrive in Pensacola in the first place? Or so it seems to me, as there are no or only an insignificant number of general supply icons on the supply filter map there, or anywhere in between ... if forwarding were the problem, would they not keep piling up in the rear?

And for another thing, the distance from port to army is really quite short. Thomas ran out completely in Troy, AL, and that I believe is no more than two hexes from a RR and no more than four from Pensacola. Shouldn't supply be able to travel this short distance no matter what? Or do I really have to plaster the map with depots like that? I never had this problem before I crossed into AL ... from the KY border all the way to the sea, my armies were supplied just fine, with I believe only two depots ever built, one halfway from New Orleans to Jackson and one somewhere south of Corinth.

When I get home tonight, I will gladly post a file for more knowledgeable people to have a look ... and maybe they will be so kind as to enlighten me.

Your wagons will draw from your depots. You need to have a depot closer, not just a harbor or city. That's all there is to it. Any number of things can be causing your supply to not make it overland. (Enemy presence, mc, fort or arty positions, not enough rail/river pushes...)

[Major Tom]

what exactly does a depot do for me if the supplies never arrive in Pensacola in the first place? Or so it seems to me, as there are no or only an insignificant number of general supply icons on the supply filter map there, or anywhere in between ... if forwarding were the problem, would they not keep piling up in the rear?

Heldenkaiser --

I don't fully understand the supply system, but I'm not sure anyone does, so I'll comment anyway.

It's possible that the problem is that Pensacola is too small of a port.

As I understand, every link in the supply chain is either a "puller," a "pusher," or both.

Only depots, large towns (level 4+) and harbors (5+) can forward supplies (those levels are in my notes, but I'm not not sure where I got them so they might be wrong!). Pensacola is only a level 2 town and level 3 harbor, so it can't push supplies further along the supply chain.

But, it ought to be able stockpile supplies even if it can't push them. I think maybe it's not sending out "demand for supplies" to the shipping box because it's not recieving "demand for supplies" from your army (because the port is too small to be a supply chain pusher, there's no reason for the shipping box to forward supplies to it).

I don't know if this is true or not, but it's a reasonable explanation. The way to counter this is to build a depot in Pensacola, not further along the supply chain as previously suggested, since the supplies aren't getting to Pensacola in the first place. Ocean supply can go not just to ports, but to coastal depots. And depots are all one size, so they can all forward supplies.

And you're in luck, becasue coastal depots are dirt cheap to build -- you can build one with two ocean transport units insteda of supply wagons.

If you try this, I will be very interested to see if it works!

EDIT -- If you do this, you will STILL have to make sure there's enough of a supply link between Pensacola and your army. Depending on terrain, your depots may not be able to push supplies more than a region or two away, especially if there's no rail link under your control. I don't think the supplies will even get to Pensacolo it the game doesn't detect that there's a demand to forward them on from there.

[Major Tom]

Your wagons will draw from your depots. You need to have a depot closer, not just a harbor or city. That's all there is to it. Any number of things can be causing your supply to not make it overland. (Enemy presence, mc, fort or arty positions, not enough rail/river pushes...)

4 regions is pretty far for supply to travel overland if there's any rough terrain in between. But if there's a rail connection to Pensacola just one region away, that ought to be enough.

#1 on my wish list for features, though I know it's not going to happen, is some kind of map filter that shows exactly how supplies are moving. I guess it would just be too complicated.

[77NY]

Is there a "supply bandwidth" issue when it comes to "pushing" supply along the various cities and supply depot "nodes"? As the Union I had a depot at Fort Smith, KS (the end of the rail line) that I believe received a shipment of 900+/900+ supplies in one turn.

So even though non-depot cities might only retain 100+/100+ in supplies, it appears that they can "push forward"/pass through as much as the rail capacity will carry in one turn.

Do I have this right?

[Major Tom]

EDIT: Completely revised on Feb 25, 2008, to take account of better information and comments up to post #66 in this thread.

The following description of the supply distribution process is based on multiple posts in this forum by Pocus.

I'm dealing only with supply distribution issues, so this is not a complete treatment of all supply rules.


[CENTER][SIZE="5"]SUPPLY DISTRIBUTION[/size][/CENTER]
Supply distribution is a 2-step process:

Step 1: “Repartition”
Supply is distributed between structures and wagons (though wagons only receive.)
Step 2: “Consumption”
Units pull supply from adjacent structures or wagons.

[SIZE="4"]Step 1: Repartition
Forwarding Between Structures[/size]

[SIZE="3"]Movement[/size]
Movement of supplies overland between structures is handled in three sequential phases (the number of supply segments you see ticking off on screen during turn resolution refer only to the computing time).

In each phase, a source can forward supplies to a distance of up to 5 regions. How far the supplies can move is dependent upon terrain and weather, and is based on cost for wheeled movement. By rail and river, supplies can move the maximum distance of 5 regions per phase. Without rail, 5 regions can only realistically be reached in fair weather, on clear terrain with roads. Weather and terrain effects can prevent supply from moving at all – if a supply wagon unit could not move out of a region in one turn, supplies probably can’t either (“probably” because supply movement isn’t actually counted in days, and supply can move a bit further in a turn than a supply wagon can in 15 days).

Supply can be forwarded from:

• Depots
• City (level 3+)
• Harbor (level 5+)

Supply can be received by all of above, plus:

• Town (level 1-2), small amount of supply.
• Harbor (level 1-4), small amount of supply.
• Wagon, up to 100% of capacity.

Supply Movement Modifiers

• Available rail and river transport[INDENT]
• River supply is completely blocked by enemy ships (even 1).
• River supply is blocked by any fort or entrenched artillery that is capable of passing fire (entrenchment 5+, with “bombard” order selected).[/INDENT]
• Available ocean transport (Union only)
• Terrain
• Weather
• Enemy presence
• Military control (must be 25%+ to allow supply to pass through region).

Rail & River
Rail and river transport can only be used if there are rail or river transports assets available after accounting for all troop movements ordered for the turn. The small transport assets blackboard at the top of the screen shows how much transport capacity you have left over after accounting for troop movement using these assets. The numbers, 0/3, 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, refer to how many supply segments will use this transport asset for movement of supply. If your rail capacity is 1/3, your rail network will only be used to transport supplies in the first of three supply phases.

[SIZE="3"]Distribution Between Structures[/size]
The key to the supply system is how the game engine decides where to send supplies. It tries to guess intelligently, and is constrained by the demand, or “magnet factor,” of the destinations. A depot is a big magnet. A wagon is a magnet. A valid destination in a region with lots of troops is a medium-sized magnet. A small town without troops is a small magnet. It's not stated anywhere, but it must be that demand is based not just on the "magnetism" of the structure but on the level of supply currently stockpiled in a structure relative to its magnetism.

In the end you have a grid of sources and destinations, equilibrated with an iterative approach. If you have a bottleneck, or a black hole (aka big troops at the end of the chain), the supply net will not be able to compensate all the needs.

The amount of supply that can transit a structure in a given turn is limited. The limit is related to the amount of supply produced by the structure.

Sources will not deplete themselves by forwarding supply – they will keep enough for their own needs.

Supply wagons will only distribute supply to non-supply units, not to structures or other supply wagons.

Unkown – whether this process is performed separately for each of the 3 movement phases (my guess), or just once before all three phases.

[SIZE="4"]Step 2: Consumption
Distribution to Units[/size]

Once the forwarding step is complete, units will draw supplies from structures, wagons, or transport ships in the same or adjacent regions. Units can also draw supply from other units in the same stack. Units cannot draw supply from further than one region away (but supply wagons can, in Step 1.)

[SIZE="4"]Supply by Sea[/size]
Supply via the Shipping Box is handled in a separate phase after the three land movement phases for supply repartition. Transport ships in the Shipping Box can transport supplies up to 10X their transport capacity. Ports with a lot of supply will use this shipping capacity to displace some of their supplies to ports or coastal depots (even without ports).

To distribute supplies via the Shipping Box, the game engine will try to equalize the ratio of supplies to harbor size for each port (unclear how this applies to coastal depots – as what size harbor are they considered?) A port or coastal depot will receive supply based on the ratio of current stocks to harbor level compared with the same ratio in the source city, with the ideal ratio of 100 supply points per harbor level: e.g., you have 100 supply points in a level 10 harbor. NYC is a level 20 harbor with 2900 supply. So NYC will send 900 supply to your level 10 harbor, bringing them both to a ratio of 100/1. Supply by sea is much simpler than overland supply, and does not take into account the “magnet” factors for land supply, such as the presence of depots or troops, or city size. All that matters is the level of supply stocks relative to the size of the harbor, after supplies have been distributed overland. Although it seems simple, Pocus has commented that the process “is not perfect.”

[SIZE="4"]Transport Ships[/size]
For all practical purposes a transport ship is considered as a supply wagon. This includes creating a depot if anchored, and it will attract supplies just like a supply wagon. If it’s in a harbor in can receive supply over land, otherwise a river transport can receive supply during a phase that you can move supply by river.

Like supply wagons, supply ships can supply units in adjacent land regions, including coastal regions for ocean transports.


[SIZE="4"]Additional Notes[/size]
Supply that is not forwarded during repartition will stay in place and accumulate. There is no upper limit to how much supply can accumulate in a structure, but beyond a certain level (hundreds of supply points) it will start to decay, with general supply degrading more than ammunition. Depots lessen the problem.

Supplies are never lost to bad weather or terrain – if supplies move, all will reach their destination.

Naval units can replenish general supply from any adjacent land region, but can only replenish ammunition in a port.

[SIZE="4"]Sources:[/size]
Forum threads and posts by lead developer Philippe Malacher ("Pocus") --

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=6221

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=9331

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=4828

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=36883

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=92127

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=48788

http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?p=12912

[77NY]

Actually, that's fantastic. Thank you.

So it looks like the 1/3 means supply will only travel up to 5 regions from where it starts the turn?

[Major Tom]

Actually, that's fantastic. Thank you.

So it looks like the 1/3 means supply will only travel up to 5 regions from where it starts the turn?

Correct -- rail can move supplies 5 regions per push phase. So if your rail assets are at 1/3, that's as far as they'll go. At 2/3, they'll go up to 10 regions by rail. I assume riverine is the same, but it might be somewhat slower, just like river movement is slower than rail. You've got to invest in rail and river transport to get the most out of the supply, especially as CSA which starts with such a weak rail and river pool.

And you lose 3% per turn on rail and river capacity, so you have to try and put one point in each every few turns at least.

[Major Tom]

Here's an idea that's pure speculation --

I would guess that even though supply movement is abstracted, it's based on actual wheeled movement rate. If that's true, a good way to estimate how far your supplies can move would be to see how far an artillery unit or supply wagon can move from the depot in question.

One turn is 15 days. Supply movement occurs in three 5-day phases. So, supply will propbably move in one phase about as far as a supply wagon can move over the same terrain in five days. On rail, movement is one region per day, which is why supplies over rail can move 5 regions per supply phase.

[Coregonas]

Yes... Tom is right, the 5 regions "traveled" is a simplification.

It depends on wheeled movement (weather counts) from 1 depot to the next.

[Major Tom]

Yes... Tom is right, the 5 regions "traveled" is a simplification.

It depends on wheeled movement (weather counts) from 1 depot to the next.

I thought so. I edited my "mini manual" to reflect this, and also what I just learned from another source: that the weather and terrain effects are not just for standard movement of supply from supply "pushers" but also aply to wagons, harbors, and small towns' ability to send supply to neighboring regions. There is no "one region minimum." If wheeled movement would not be able to enter a region within 15 days, then supply will not be able to either. This is why mountains in winter can be a death trap.