End Game

[Bern]

Must admit to being 'all of a dither' . It is March, 1918, and for several turns I, as the Entente, have been in complete control of the game. Entente troops occupy Berlin and pretty well all the major cities of Germany as well as most towns/regions. Most of the rail network is converted for Entente use. Since the beginning of 1918, it has been necessary to send out cav. units to try to locate any enemy. Eventually I got tired of that and lifted fog of war to find that the Germans have virtually no fighting forces left. They do have an air force which has been used in the past two turns to bomb Berlin so that France loses EPs .

They have no recruit points and a negative economy. The NW points are low but have been increased in each turn either by a new Government or patriotic reaction. Their position is hopeless, however. The A-H situation is no better. Turkey surrendered some turns ago. Italy is still a member of the CP and functioning - mainly because it has done very little.

Despite this, the war drags on but it is all totally unrealistic and really very tedious . Should there not be some form of 'cut-off' point, where a nation surrenders when its army is reduced. Alternatively, in such hopeless conditions, is it not possible that the new Govt or patriotism should not be allowed to artificially increase NW .

Bern

[calvinus]

This is indeed an annoying point we found also in the boardgame... I will study on this!

[calvinus]

Suggestion for modding.........

FRA.ini and RUS.ini....

Work on the following params:

; The number of surrender tests to be performed when evaluating a peace proposal or the possibility of an unconditional surrender [min 1, max 10]
SurrenderTestsToBePerformedForPeace=4

; The number of successful surrender tests required for accepting a peace proposal or adopting an unconditional surrender (see above) [min 1, max 10]
MinSuccessfulSurrenderTestsForPeace=2

Edit: when both FRA and RUS surrender, the game is over.

[calvinus]

I believe also that we should add some tweaking in New Government political action.

Look at the PoliticalOption.xls DB:
PO_NewGovernment - max per nation 10.... well we can halve it down.

[Bern]

Thanks Calvinus - unfortunately modding the files is not for me - I do not have Excel and have had probs in the past with conversion progs.

I do think that change is necessary though.

Bern

[Strat_84]

Thanks Calvinus - unfortunately modding the files is not for me - I do not have Excel and have had probs in the past with conversion progs.

I do think that change is necessary though.

Bern

Agreed. I'm invading Germany right now, with the only remaining german corps of the Western front being stuck in Belgium.
I'm just like a giant wave moving deep in the German borders from Switzerland to Luxembourg (I must be 7 or 8 regions far from the border) and there is nothing to stop me.

In real life Germany would have only 3 options:

1°) A desperate counter attack from Belgium to cut my supply lines (very unlikely to succeed though)
2°) Switching several armies from the Eastern front to the Western front, at least to stop me with trenches (but not sure it would save the country, as the Russian army is retreating right now, but may come back again if Germany stops its attacks there)
3°) Surrendering immediatly

And maybe a 4th one: mobilizing every people to form a new army and defend the motherland.

P.S: There may be a patriotic reaction when an important region from motherland is lost, what about a nervous breakdown if too many of those key regions are lost ? That would solve the problem we have here I think

[calvinus]

No patriotic reaction for regions, not designed. There's instead for major cities (those marked with a star, I recall).

I will test some tweaking on max number of new gov. actions per nation, and most likely the chances for surrender in ini files.

[Bern]

Thanks Calvinus - I think it is really important to get this right. For me, it is critical that the end game segment delivers the same sort of quality of involvement/enjoyment as the beginning and middle sections. I would go so far as to say that, as it is, this ending really is a game spoiler .

Bern

[calvinus]

I suggest you to open the RUS.ini and FRA.ini files, and adjust the surrendering modding params as follows:

; The number of surrender tests to be performed when evaluating a peace proposal or the possibility of an unconditional surrender [min 1, max 10]
SurrenderTestsToBePerformedForPeace=4

; The number of successful surrender tests required for accepting a peace proposal or adopting an unconditional surrender (see above) [min 1, max 10]
MinSuccessfulSurrenderTestsForPeace=1

This should double the chances France and Russia surrender, but remember that controlling their capitals helps a lot!

[Anthropoid]

What directory are those .INI files in?

[calvinus]

[game dir]\Data\AI\Modding

[Bern]

Sorry Calvinus - it appears my ISP has decided to take holidays from providing a service - I now get only a very occasional - and quick glimpse of the i/net. It is actually A-H and Germany which should be surrendering.

The game has staggered through to 1919 and has become, frankly, a joke. Each of these powers now has about three active units and they are dancing from region to region trying to avoid Entente forces. I am reduced to trying to surround them in order to kill them. At the same time the NW of both is currently in the 20s.

I'm still getting notification that all the Entente major powers have surrendered, together with the 'in country' conquests. Somehow a calculation has gone wrong somewhere which has resulted in the GB govt moving to pacifist despite all its victories. It does not move from that position.

The other factor is that, although to all intents and purposes the Entente won the war in Jan 1918, the fact that it has been artificially dragged on into 1919 will have had an impact in terms of war weariness etc.

Grrrrrr

Bern

[calvinus]

Do you mean you see notifications of France/Russia surrender, but at the end these nations do not surrender???

If so, I already have a savegame in the list of "to do"/"fixes" schedulings.

[Anthropoid]

I think what he means Calvinus, is that HE is playing the Entente, and he has defeated Central Powers, and it is CP who will not surrender despite having almost no territory or armies left.

[Bern]

OK let me have another go at this, but first let me say that this has now become, for me, a major issue - to the extent that it has begun to colour my overall perception of the game.

From the early Aug 1914 turn, this has been an excellent gaming experience - a really well-crafted, immersive and realistic simulation of the first world war which has given me a great deal of enjoyment, along with a degree of 'education' about the period. However game events from the end of 1917 have caused a considerable dilution of that view.

To repeat myself, as from Jan 1918, I, as the Entente, have gained a position of almost complete dominance in the game. Turkey surrendered earlier in 1917 and Entente troops occupy all CP capitals and pretty well all the major cities of Germany as well as most regions. Most of the rail network is converted for Entente use. The A-H situation is similar. CP have no armies to speak of; no recruit points and negative economies.

Despite the fact that their capital cities and most of their countries are under the control of the Entente, political actions to boost CP NW are still possible and are used; new Governments are formed with gay abandon and Ambassadors are despatched hither and thither. This is hopelessly unrealistic and is in complete contrast to what I understand as the principles of the game.

I don't believe that simply changing surrender parameters is the answer, in fact it could cause more problems. I've always expressed positive views on the game and I'm sorry that these thoughts are so negative. Maybe these were things thrashed out in the board game. I have never played that so it's quite possible I'm speaking out of turn - if so I apologise.

I'm also sorry I can't at the moment respond, I'm having a devil of a bad time with my ISP - so it's bad news all round. Hopefully though in a few days I may be able to discover any views others may have on the issue.

Bern

[Kaiser1918]

I agree with you Bern. Easy solution would be to forbid the forming of new governments after the capital has fallen.

[pesec]

Losing capitals should have a lot more severe effect on majors. I can't even imagine Germany still going on if Berlin had fallen. Same for Russia if Petrograd or Moscow were lost.

I think apossible solution would be:
1. No political actions possible with capital occupied. Period. No "improve national morale", "restore order" or "form new government". Basically, when capital falls, the only way National Will goes should be down.
2. Having capital occupied should cause per turn loss of NW. And that loss should be increasing. First turn that capital has not been re-conquered should result in 1 NW loss. Second turn should result in 2 more NW lost. Then 3 more NW.

If those are implemented, any nation major should surrender within half year of having their capital occupied, which I find realistic. Serbs could keep fighting because hope that Russia + France + Britain + Italy would defeat Germany + Austro-hungary was reasonable. If, however, Berlin was occupied, Germans would have very hard time believing that Austro-Hungary + Ottoman Empire would defeat whole Entente on their own...

[calvinus]

I think that a combination of:

1) no "New Government" if capital occupied, plus
2) Halve down the max number of "New Governments" political actions that can be performed by a nation during the war (from 10 to 5)
3) Increase the chances for ordering an unconditional surrender (modding AI files)

would improve considerably the situation.

If Bern posts here a zipped his savegame, that looks perfect for our scope, I can test there three factors.

Thanks,
Calvinus.

[Bern]

A save game is attached. Moved on a bit to mid 1919, so situation slightly different - have to say some turns I've just clicked through simply to get to the end. I should also add that I have had game crashes with this, adding to the frustration . I've been running it in no sound mode.

As a side thing, there also seems to be a problem with the calculation of the GB parliament standing. It is set at Pacifist due, I believe, to some earlier miscalculation, and it is reset to Pacifist no matter what actions are agreed to move it towards the right.

Largely in agreement with other views re end game, my ideas for improvement are the same -

1. 'National resurgence' should be available only once.

2. No political actions at all when capital occupied

3. Loss of Capital = loss of NW on an increasing scale.

I've now abandoned the game, but I do still have a number of save games covering late 1917 through 1918 and into 1919 which I could use to test out the effects of any changes at various stages. I'd be happy to do this if it helps - I understand from my ISP that full service should be available later today, or maybe tomorrow.

Bern

[Oyvind]

I have attached another save from an endgame. The CP are dominating, and nobody on the other side are surrendering. There are Austrians in Siberia, Germans have conquered Canada and Scotland, Turkey have taken over Australia etc. The only capital that has not been taken is London, since the AI is doing a good job at handling the British fleets.

A couple of bug reports:

1. There seem to be ghost corps (with no units inside) flying around the map all the time.

2. I have been unable to eliminate some British and French corps. They seem to have no problems retreating to an area already occupied by a German stack. Nor do they have any supply problems, even though all towns on the continent is owned by the CP. I have provided both a before and after battle save file.

3. A HQ with only a plane counter inside can change control of areas as it moves.

4. In naval and air battles, you are not forced to commit any units from the bottom row, so you can always avoid taking damage.

5. You can declare war on a previously surrendered minor country, it will probably surrender again quickly, giving you a quick will fix.

6. You are unable to attack enemy units hiding inside a surrendered minor country.

7. Mutinies increase parliament by several levels, but according to the rules there is a 50% chance that it could decrease by 1 level. This is one of the reasons why countries never surrender.

The game has come a long way in the last couple of months. We are discussing end game problems, and not crashes. Keep up the good work.

[TheDeadeye]

Also once a nation surrenders, all of its units ought to be disbanded and dismanteled for clarity purposes. It is sometimes unnerving to see corps of a former enemy behind enemy lines as one could think that they still pose a threat.

[calvinus]

Some news that will come with 1.06B:

- Armies of surrendered nations are now fully disbanded (customizable via PeaceRules.csv DB)
- War declarations on surrendered nations is no more allowed
- The max number of political actions "New Government" per nation has been halved down (from 10 to 5)
- The political actions "New Government" can now be planned only if the nation capital is not enemy controlled
- The chances for unconditional surrendering of most major nations have been increased

[Johnny Canuck]

Excellent stuff, calvinus! I hate to ask, but could you give a small hint on when 1.06b might be ready?

[calvinus]

Excellent stuff, calvinus! I hate to ask, but could you give a small hint on when 1.06b might be ready?

The 1.06B is virtually ready, but I have three problems:

1) I'm bogged in the rail conversion stuff, as you can see in another thread;
2) I still have to finalize the changes in Surrendering matters, as outlined in this thread;
3) last but not least, savegames of 1.06A are not compatible with version 1.06B and I wish to find a solution that makes them automatically converted during the load procedure. Otherwise you all will be asked to do a manual correction using a text editor, which is not fair for most of you!

These are my current troubles...

[Franciscus]

Regarding point #3, I would say that it is not at all unusual for saved games to be NOT compatible with a new patch, so you should not worry about it, IMHO

[calvinus]

I just worked out two outstanding improvements:

- Added key territorial considerations in Accept/Surrender AI evaluations checks
- Corrected the PoliticalConditions DB in order to allow the limitations to political actions "New Government" in case of nation capital controlled by the enemy

I tested the save of Bern, where Germany is k.o., and Germany surrendered immediately!

These key factors are moddable, of course!

Next patch...

[Bern]

I just worked out two outstanding improvements:

- Added key territorial considerations in Accept/Surrender AI evaluations checks
- Corrected the PoliticalConditions DB in order to allow the limitations to political actions "New Government" in case of nation capital controlled by the enemy

I tested the save of Bern, where Germany is k.o., and Germany surrendered immediately!

These key factors are moddable, of course!

Next patch...

That looks excellent Any idea when for the next patch.

Bern

[TheDeadeye]

That looks excellent Any idea when for the next patch.

Bern

+1

[calvinus]

A new beta patch will come as soon as possible, mainly because this new feature has to be deeply tested by you volunteers. The mod params are to be tweaked well in order to avoid too early unconditional surrenders!

[hattrick]

Hi,

You might want to check this out, in my game the Russians surrendered in 1915.

This might be because of the AI continuing to attack and lose, but to make sure I will send it on.