Civil War Fortifications

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Captain]

I think that's where the developers would differ with you. I'm sure they're closely intertwined, though.

My thoughts exactly.
I use to enjoy playing GDW's Dien Bien Phu some of my mates would cringe knowing the subject matter. Shelby Foote himself said the south never had a chance, so following that logic why play AACW, especially as the south?

Dien Bien Phu actually won some awards for its game system. But the point is you can't tinker with with the simulation to the extent where you would have the French in the mountains instead of the valley so that it is play balanced !

Playability is usually adjusted using victory conditions not changing the historical situations, (mind you that is why many games have what if variants).

That's why we play historical games and not Risk.

[Captain]

I take the opposite view: realistic values trump all. (I'm careful to say "realistic values" and not "realism.") Personal preference.

Again agreed.
Nothing worse than watching WWII films when all the actors are saying "look there's a Tiger tank!" and all you are seeing is some 1950's US surplus armoured vehicle. Sort of defeats the purpose really

[ohms_law]

But the point is you can't tinker with with the simulation to the extent where you would have the French in the mountains instead of the valley so that it is play balanced !

Well, of course!


That's the whole key right there, is play balance.

[Captain]

While I was playing the game yesterday I noticed, quite by accident, that the British Coastal Defences are a Level 8 Permanent Fort. Out of curiosity I explored the rest of the 'Foreign' forts:
Fort Erie, in Ontario (Upper Canada), is a Pre-war Fort.
Fort Amherst, across from Detroit, is a Level 3 Permanent Fort.
Fortress Quebec is a Level 4 Permanent Fort.
The Coastal Defences for France is a Level 8 Permanent Fort.
Fort de France in the French West Indies is a Level 2 Permanent Fort.

The permanent forts that we can build are only level 2. Assuming that Pocus meant the permanent forts to represent fortress complexes along the lines of Verdun (with several smaller forts providing support for each other), then limiting our forts to level 2 makes sense since it takes decades to reach the level of these fortress complexes.

As an aside, since I know you've been making authorized changes to the game, a few editorial suggestions for Canada:
There were no permanent fortifications in Upper Canada west of Kingston, Ontario, therefore -
Change Fort Erie to a town from a pre-war fort. Fort Erie fortifications were abandoned after the war of 1812. This will free up a pre-war fort slot for your use.
Get rid of the permanent fort at Amherstburg (Fort Amherst). This was another 1812 fort that had been abandoned in the 1830's - in this case used as a Psychiatric Hospital.
Move Fortress Quebec to Quebec City, where it belongs, instead of Toronto. If there is a need for a fort in Toronto, in order to maintain game balance, I suggest you change the name to Fort Henry (which was the name of the main fort in the fortifications built around Kingston).
I don't see any need to change the levels of the forts that I suggest remain since the Citadelle at Quebec City, Fort George (in Halifax, and not represented in the game), and Fort Henry (the defences around Kingston), were among the strongest fortifications in North America until the Civil War occurred. With that in mind, New York City, Brooklyn, Newark, Boston and San Francisco should also probably also have permanent forts placed in them.

Charles, excellent work this is the type of stuff we need. Unfortunately my military background was infantry not engineers. Does anyone know if Osprey have a book on civil war forts?

[Daxil]

In all it took almost four months to complete this fort. All of the apparent inactivity in building the fort from the time I first decided to build the fort until I pushed the build fort button can be explained as the whole process of finding the right site, surveying that site, and initial preparatory work, etc. The 25 day building the fort process just represents the final stages of the fort building left in order to make it a defensible position.

Ok, that makes more sense from that standpoint. I still think the forts are over priced if nothing can be placed inside them by default due to game limitations, which is the crux of the issue.And if you end up reducing the amount of cannons/wagons etc required then time should be correspondingly upped.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Daxil]

I'm beginning to see why player built forts were just completely priced out of the game... Too many permutations on their effects to the game's current play balance. I may abandon this idea for the "official" game. No restrictions on modding it for experimental purposes however. There has been some valuable information procurred through the discussion however, not the least has been Charles De Salaberry's analysis of some erroneous Pre-War fortifications. Very interesting information.

I still find forts quite useful in certain locations even with the current limitations. It wouldn't be the end of the world if things stayed as is.

[Charles De Salaberry]

Charles, excellent work this is the type of stuff we need. Unfortunately my military background was infantry not engineers. Does anyone know if Osprey have a book on civil war forts?

I believe I saw one advertised when I was searching on Google.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Chaplain Lovejoy]

Playability is usually adjusted using victory conditions not changing the historical situations, (mind you that is why many games have what if variants).

That's why we play historical games and not Risk.

Ah, a kindred spirit!

[Captain]

Ah, a kindred spirit!

Chaplain,

Don't know about "kindred" given you are a Padre an I a Pagan, However I am all the way with you on the spirits side, Vodka by preference, Bolshevik firewater has taken years off my life.

But yes I agree that is in essence why we play wargames

I remember a friend who I have lost track of, we played games together 20 or so years ago. He loved AH's Squad Leader. I hated it, a million rules requiring you to roll a dice to see if radio operator can hear through the handest lest it be clogged with earwax. Anyway after getting bogged down with rules for a specific question after a long gaming session, old mate suddenly stands to attention like a Spanish Inquistitor and loudly declares "that counter has the wrong silhouette, that's not a panzer MkIV its a panzer III with modifications !!!

God save us! But yes a case of principles and degrees.

[Jabberwock]

Again more interesting information if/when verified. Thanks for the post.

These are the most significant 2nd or 3rd system coastal forts that remained in union possession.

Bangor, ME:
Fort Knox

Portsmouth, NH:
Fort McClary
Fort Constitution

Boston:
Fort Warren
Fort Independence

Newport, RI:
Fort Adams

New York:
Castle Williams (Governor's Island)
Castle Clinch (Manhattan)
Fort Hamilton (Brooklyn)
Fort Richmond aka Fort Wadsworth (Staten Island)
Fort Schuyler (Bronx)
Fort Wood (Bedloe's Island)

Philadelphia:
Fort Mifflin
Fort Delaware (in southern NJ; near Newark, DE; defends Philadelphia, PA; confused yet?)

Baltimore:
Fort McHenry
Fort Carroll

Washington:
Fort Washington

Hampton Roads:
Fort Monroe

Dry Tortugas:
Fort Jefferson

Key West:
Fort Taylor

Pensacola:
Fort Pickens

San Francisco:
Fort Point aka Fort Scott

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

old mate suddenly stands to attention like a Spanish Inquistitor and loudly declares "that counter has the wrong silhouette."

Man, what a great story!

[Ayeshteni]

But yes I agree that is in essence why we play wargames

I remember a friend who I have lost track of, we played games together 20 or so years ago. He loved AH's Squad Leader. I hated it, a million rules requiring you to roll a dice to see if radio operator can hear through the handest lest it be clogged with earwax. Anyway after getting bogged down with rules for a specific question after a long gaming session, old mate suddenly stands to attention like a Spanish Inquistitor and loudly declares "that counter has the wrong silhouette, that's not a panzer MkIV its a panzer III with modifications !!!

God save us! But yes a case of principles and degrees.

Aye. I know this is a little OT, but I am concerned about my own sanity here. I am the kind of AACW (and AGEOD in general) player, that is more than happy to have most of the number crunching under the hood. The kind of player that doesn't have to think to much about the 'hows' or 'whys' of how things work, just that they do (and with a cute roll-over to provide clarity).

The paradox being that I am a devoted and religiously devout Star Fleet Battles player. A game so vast and technical and cross-referenced and structured so strongly to straight-jacket a smooth-talking lawyer, that it worries me. The annoying thing is, I can't play it with anyone as they look at all the rulebooks (I have every single one in print) that they run a mile. And yet in an AGEOD computer game, I can't process all the mechanics involved.

Ayeshteni

[Captain]

The paradox being that I am a devoted and religiously devout Star Fleet Battles player. A game so vast and technical and cross-referenced and structured so strongly to straight-jacket a smooth-talking lawyer, that it worries me. The annoying thing is, I can't play it with anyone as they look at all the rulebooks (I have every single one in print) that they run a mile. And yet in an AGEOD computer game, I can't process all the mechanics involved.

Ayeshteni[/QUOTE]

Aye,
yes I have all the Star Fleet boxes and folders of rules in the cupboard somewhere . But I really think that is a case of tactical vs strategic preference.
The bloke I previously mentioned and I once tried to play Federation and Empire and resolve 'every' battle tactically with STF !! Needless to say we never finished.

AACW is strategic and operational which suits me. I really don't want to know how many slices of bread we can get out of that loaf if we cut it thinnner which would then convert to a +1 morale, unless you are the soldier who got the mouldy bit which means you now have to divide unit strength by slice of bread subtracted by mouldy piece and then let's not forget % of bread eaten by ants, but if you roll for rain the ants may have got drowned ETE,ETC.