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Barker
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African Americans in the CSA Army

Wed Sep 24, 2008 3:26 pm

I have been doing some research about the African Americans in the civil war. I have read an Excellent book thta anyone interested in the ACW Should read.
Black Confederate Soldiers

This is a treasure trove of information. They discuss African American's receiving a Confederate Pension after the war. Sharp Shooters in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry, Artillery Batteries, the Louisana Tigers and how a majority were african American. How they played roles as early as the capture of Donelson. How the Souther Black despised the Northen Black man. These essays and stories are written by well famed African American authors Brewer and such.

here is a very good artcle on the confederate soldier who happened to be black.

One would have to ask, “Why haven’t we heard more about them?”

Ed Bearss, National Park Service Historian Emeritus, made the following statement: “I don’t want to call it a conspiracy to ignore the role of Blacks, both above and below the Mason-Dixon line, but it was definitely a tendency that began around 1910.”

And, Historian Erwin L. Jordan, Jr., calls it a “cover-up” which started back in 1865. He writes, “During my research on pension applications, I came across instances where black men stated they were soldiers, but you can plainly see where ‘soldier’ is crossed out and ‘body servant’ or ‘teamster’ inserted.”

Another black historian, Roland Young says that “he is not surprised that blacks fought ... some, if not most, would support their country, and that by doing so they were demonstrating that it was possible to hate the system of slavery and love one’s country.”

This same principle was exhibited by African Americans who fought for the colonies during the American Revolution, despite the fact that the British offered them freedom if they would fight for them. Peter Jennings, an early settler of Rutherford County, was one of more than 5,000 black soldiers who fought for the colonies in the war for Independence. In 1830 Jennings was listed as having built a house on the corner of Vine and Church streets, which was also his bakery shop. There is a marker in the old City Cemetery commemorating his services in the Revolutionary War, but the exact place of his burial is not known.

It has been estimated that more than 65,000 Southern blacks served in some form or fashion in the Confederate ranks, and more than 13,000 of these “saw the elephant,” a term used to describe meeting the enemy in combat. These black Confederates included both slaves and free men. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers, except as musicians, until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story. Many Confederate officers, ignoring the mandates of politicians, enlisted blacks with the simple criteria, “Will you fight?” According to historian, Ervin Jordan, “biracial units were frequently organized by both local and state militia commanders in response to immediate threats by Union troops.” As of February 1865, there were 1,150 black seamen who served in the Confederate Navy. One of these was among the last Confederates to surrender, aboard the CSS Shenandoah in England, six months after the war ended.

However, Dr. George Smith has done extensive research on this subject as well and based upon both Union and Confederate documents included in the Official War Records, it is his opinion that “Since it was illegal for Blacks, either free or slave, to carry and bear arms, it is extraordinarily hard to believe there were 65,000 Blacks serving in Confederate ranks, with over 13,000 seeing combat. Closer to 100,000 freemen and slaves were impressed under the numerous impressments acts. All the impressments acts clearly delineated slaves were to be used as teamsters, laborers, hospital orderlies, cooks, etc.”

As the war was nearing its final days, the Confederacy took progressive measures to build back its ranks with the creation of the Confederate Colored Troops, copied after the segregated northern colored troops, but this idea came too late for any measure of success. CSA Maj. Gen. Patrick Cleburne, at the height of his military career and recognizing the plight of the South’s dwindling supply of able-bodied men, made a bold proposal in late 1863 to “drill and arm as many as 300,000 black slaves.” Included in this proposal was the idea to not only free the blacks who volunteered, but their wives and children as well. Cleburne was quite disappointed that his idea was not more readily embraced. However, in 1864, President Jefferson Davis, in an attempt to gain official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain and France, did approve a plan that proposed the emancipation of slaves. But what actually passed on March 13, 1865 was General Orders No. 14 which stated: “SEC. 2, that the General-in-Chief be authorized to organize the said slaves into companies, battalions, regiments, and brigades, under such rules and regulations as the Secretary of War may prescribe, and to be commanded by such officers as the President may appoint. ... that nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize a change in the relation which the said slaves shall bear toward their owners, except by consent of the owners and of the states in which they may reside, and in pursuance of the laws thereof.” This occurred just one month before the end of the war and by this point, there was no time, no munitions, no supplies, no uniforms, no nothing, for it to ever come to fruition. It is unclear whether the wages would go to the slaves or to the owners.

Contrary to what a lot of people believe, Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation, which went into effect in January of 1863, stated that only those slaves held “within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States” would be freed and those slaves in states “not in rebellion” were not affected.

Free black men served the Confederacy as soldiers, teamsters, musicians, and cooks. They earned the same pay for their service as did white Confederate privates, which, in the Union Army, was not the case. They also earned the wrath of their fellow black men of the North. Ex-slave Frederick Douglas commented: “There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down ... and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal Government.” Horace Greeley, observing the differences between the two warring armies, commented: “For more than two years, Negroes have been extensively employed in belligerent operations by the Confederacy. They have been embodied and drilled as rebel soldiers and had paraded with white troops at a time when this would not have been tolerated in the armies of the Union.”

Gen. Nathan Bedford Forrest, who was a slave trader before the war, had both slaves and free men serving in units under his command. After the war, Forrest said of the black men who served under him, “These boys stayed with me ... and better Confederates did not live.” And, in an address given by Col. William Sanford, at the Confederate Veterans Reunion of the 7th Tennessee Cavalry Regiment of Cavalry, Forrest’s Corps, at Columbia on September 22, 1876, Col. Sanford said: “And to you, our colored friends ... we say welcome. We can never forget your faithfulness in the darkest hours of our lives. We tender to you our hearty respect and love, for you never faltered in your duty nor betrayed your trust.”

When Forrest made his raid on Murfreesboro on July 13, 1862, there is documentation regarding the participation of Black Confederates according to Col. Parkhurst’s report (Ninth Michigan Infantry) included in the Federal Official Records. He wrote: “The forces attacking my camp were the First Regiment Texas Rangers, Colonel Wharton, and a battalion of the First Georgia Rangers, Colonel Morrison, and a large number of citizens of Rutherford County, many of whom had recently taken the oath of allegiance to the United States Government. There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day.”

Southern generals owned slaves but northern generals owned them as well. Gen. Ulysses Grant’s slaves had to wait for the Thirteenth Amendment for freedom. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, General Grant replied, “Good help is so hard to come by these days.” In February of 1865, Grant in fact ordered the capture of “all the Negro men ... before the enemy can put them in their ranks.” And Frederick Douglas warned President Lincoln that unless slaves were guaranteed freedom (those in Union controlled areas were still slaves) and land bounties, “They would take up arms for the rebels.”

please go to this link
http://www.murfreesboropost.com/news.php?viewStory=9134

enjoy

Marc

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:02 pm

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:07 pm

my bad again sorry Rafiki, Thanks for the Catch

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:48 pm

Barker wrote:Gen. Ulysses Grant’s slaves had to wait for the Thirteenth Amendment for freedom. When asked why he didn’t free his slaves earlier, General Grant replied, “Good help is so hard to come by these days.”


Hi Barker -

Do you have the source for this statement? I'm aware that Grant came into possession of some slaves from his father-in-law, but I thought they were sold off within a few months.

Thanks
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:29 pm

murfreesboro news paper the link is there. you could contact the paper and check on their sources. Now the quotes by Forrest and his actions after the war are correct I came to find out. Also there were free men of color in 5th Alabama Cav as well as half of Forrest's HQ Detachment.

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 5:42 pm

Another pension granted, though not from Rutherford County, was that of Louis Napoleon Nelson, a member of the 7th Tennessee Cavalry, which was part of Forrest’s command. Louis Nelson was born in Lauderdale County and originally went off to war as a bodyguard for E. R. and Sydney Oldham. E. R. Oldham became a general in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry, Co. M.

According to his grandson, Nelson Winbush, a native of Ripley, Tennessee, and a retired high school assistant principal now living in Florida, his grandfather died when he was five years old at the age of 88.
“He was buried with great ceremony, dressed in full Confederate uniform with a Battle Flag draping his coffin. Sons of Confederate Veterans members came from three states to see him off on his last campaign. ... He had been to 39 SCV reunions before he died.”

Nelson Winbush, like his grandfather and himself a member of SCV, speaks proudly of having the flag, which draped his grandfather’s coffin, in his possession. “My grandfather was there ... 1861 -1865 ... at Shiloh, Lookout Mountain, Brice’s Crossroads, and Vicksburg. He was originally a cook and forager, ... but when they needed him, he fought just like anybody else.”

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:30 pm

What I've managed to find on Grant:

US Civil War FAQ Q5.8

In 1858, while attempting to make a go in civilian life as a farmer near St. Louis, MO, U.S. Grant acquired a slave named William Jones, probably from his father-in-law, although the record is not entirely clear. In March, 1859, Grant gave Jones his freedom despite the fact that Grant desperately needed the money he might have recovered by selling him. Grant's wife, Julia, had the use of four slaves as personal servants; the record is unclear as to who held legal title to them (it could well have been Julia's father). In her own memoirs, Julia states that these were freed at the time of the Emancipation Proclamation.

Missouri Historical Review October, 1987, Vol. 82, No. 1

This is the property that was given to Mrs Julia Dent Grant as a wedding gift. This happened in the 50's when on account of the diverse opinions of Grant and his father-in-law regarding the slave question, it got so that it was not very pleasant living under the same roof with Colonel Dent. This is why Mr. Dent gave the property north of the Rock Hill road to his daughter as her property.

EDIT: Other sources state Julia's servants were freed in 1865, when all slaves in Missouri were freed. If they legally belonged to Julia then Grant, as her husband, could legally have freed them. If they were legally still property of Frederick Dent, then they weren't Grant's slaves.

Anyway, very interesting thread. Every once in a while, I'll come across a picture or isolated blurb ... almost always with a disclaimer ("they never fought", "teamsters and musicians", "personal manservant"). I'm usually left wondering something like, so why take a picture of twenty guys with guns in their hands?
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:54 pm

Jabberwock wrote: If they were legally still property of Frederick Dent, then they weren't Grant's slaves.



Ouch......Jabber as we would say this side of the pond....that really is splitting hairs. ;)

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:00 pm

If he couldn't legally free them, he couldn't legally free them. He could argue with his wife or his father-in-law about it, but he had no recourse, because they weren't his property.
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:04 pm

BTW - Happy Birthday Barker! :p arty:
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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:23 pm

Good stuff Barker. Happy B-Day by the way too.

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:29 pm

Jabberwock wrote:If he couldn't legally free them, he couldn't legally free them. He could argue with his wife or his father-in-law about it, but he had no recourse, because they weren't his property.


One could assume, given the age, that he could have forbidden his wife her 'servants' or were women equal in those days on your side of the water? They sure as heck were not over here. ;)

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:45 pm

thanks by the way on the b'day......little know about forrest and he is villified for alot but what he did took 45 black men as volunteers, freed 44 in 1863 before emancipationthe other one died, had sharpshooters in his division that were black and most received a confederate pension. I think this is a very overlooked page in history that should be discussed in a open venue to spark interest in ACW. Prime example this is extraced from the Black Confederates that wore Gray.

Some were captured at donelson, 1 escaped 3 times and rejoimed the army fought escaped fought escaped

This is by a unon Officer at Gettysburg I believe.
"I saw the rebel flag bearer fall and saw a negro pick the flag up and charged up the hill. He got within 10 feet of the stone wall before he fell"

That says alot for the courage of the CSA soldier, a fine example of what the confederacy meant to them at the time.

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Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:46 pm

soundoff wrote:One could assume, given the age, that he could have forbidden his wife her 'servants' or were women equal in those days on your side of the water? They sure as heck were not over here. ;)


If he was an abolitionist ... then yes, he could have tried that. In which case, his wife and her "servants" would likely all have returned to her family plantation for an extended visit. Sam Grant was poor white trash compared to Julia Dent. Colonel Dent owned at least thirty slaves when the Grants were married. His family refused to attend the wedding, because her family were slave-owners. I'm not claiming that Grant himself was an abolitionist. Julia Dent would not have married an abolitionist. Things I am claiming:

1. The one slave Grant clearly recieved title too, he freed within months.

2. He argued extensively with his father-in-law about slavery, amongst other things.

3. His wife or her father owned slaves which she retained control over, and Grant didn't make a lawsuit of it (for whatever reasons).
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Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:00 am

Jabberwock wrote:3. His wife or her father owned slaves which she retained control over, and Grant didn't make a lawsuit of it (for whatever reasons).


Based on what I've read of their relationship, while she loved him immensely, he definitely needed her more than she needed him.
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Thu Sep 25, 2008 12:50 am

The question that I always have whenever stories of Blacks serving in the Confederate army is where are they? I accept that Blacks served in the Confederate army in any number of non-combatant roles. The question that begs to be answered is where are the prisoners? There were 462,634 Confederate soldiers captured during the war of which 214,865 were sent to POW camps. Of these 460,000 prisoners how many were Black? The answer is zero.
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Black Confederates

Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:59 am

There has been a lot of discussion of this issue among historians of the Civil War. The reason that there are so few documented cases of "black Confederates" is that most blacks who did serve in the CSA forces were not actually enrolled soldiers in the Confederate army. The CSA government did not take the very politically difficult decision to enroll soldiers formally in its forces until the very last months of the war. So most blacks who served in the CSA forces did so as officers' servants or as the previous poster said, as unarmed laborers. Officers' servants were sometimes carried on regimental books for ration purposes (one presumes that their masters drew their pay, if any) and that is how most of the very small number of blacks who did qualify got pensions from the former CSA state governments after the war.

There was one black (actually colored, i.e. mixed-race, though this was a distinction without a difference for most southerners) Louisiana militia regiment that served some months with the CSA forces before New Orleans was captured by the USA (and the commander of CSA forces in the region refused to accept it into the regular army). Afterwards, this regiment was reconstituted as part of the US Army and was the first black regiment in US service to enter combat.

The reason no or very few "black Confederates" reached USA prisoner of war camps is because all enslaved blacks from rebellious areas who came under the control of the US Army after the first months of the war were considered "contraband of war" and in essence became the property of the US government. After the Emancipation Proclamation, January 1, 1863, all such persons were automatically freed. So if an officer's servant or black laborer in CSA service were to be captured, they would automatically be converted to USA service without ever being considered prisoners.

It is true that some blacks did serve the CSA voluntarily. Indeed, the history of slave societies is full of occasions on which blacks served slave-holding governments voluntarily, and sometimes quite efficiently. The British West India Regiment (actually a force of several thousand men spread out around the British Caribbean) was recruited from among slaves, and even after the end of slavery in the British Empire, still had men in it recruited directly from slavery in Africa. The French army in the colonial period and during the independence struggle of Saint-Domingue was full of slaves and free people of color who fought to defend the system against rebel slaves and hunt down runaways. The Spanish government and the pro-independence rebels both recruited heavily from among slaves and free people of color. Race was not the only reason someone would serve in an army - often free people of color, and even slaves, were related to their masters (often their children or half-brothers), or tied to them by clientage and emotional ties that were stronger than any generalized desire to see blacks as a whole freed. Slave soldiers were generally promised their own freedom, and often that of their families as well, in return for good service - a powerful inducement. And free people of color often hoped that good service would be rewarded by increased rights for their whole class. After all, military service is one of the principal duties of citizenship.

The United States was an unusually harsh system of slavery in the Atlantic world. Racial divisions were much sharper here than in Spanish America, Brazil, or even the French colonies. American whites were much less willing than Latin Americans to see armed blacks in the military - indeed, even after the end of the Civil War, blacks serving in the armed forces of the reunified USA were few and their service controversial. But the CSA did have a very small percentage of its black manpower in its armed forces. Of course, the vast majority of blacks who fought in the Civil War did so in blue uniforms. One of the fatal weaknesses of the CSA was its reluctance to use one-third to one-half of its manpower for military purposes. The total number of blacks serving in combat roles in the CSA armed forces probably never was greater than a few hundred, while several hundred thousand served in the US Army and Navy.

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Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:05 am

As for the reported number of blacks supporting the CSA cause, the PRESENT accepted number is 60,000. This would include, free blacks and slaves. Of that number about 15,000 "saw the elephant." However, since CSA forces did NOT list roster members by race, the actual number is likely to be much higher...Bob Harrison


Dempsey, Charles 2nd NC Artillery, 36th Reg. Captured at Ft. Fisher

Dempsey, Henry 2nd NC Artillery, 36th Reg. Captured at Ft. Fisher

Doyle, J. 3rd NC Artillery, 40th Reg. Captured at Ft. Fisher

Hall, Moses

Herring, Daniel 2nd NC Artillery, 36th Reg. Captured at Ft. Fisher

Poplar, Dick 13th VA Cav., CO H, captured at Gettysburg, 20 months in Point Lookout

Porter, William

Tate, Hampton. Free colored, blockade runner

Un-named. Reported as colored man with Nicholas McGinnis

Un-named. Three blacks crossing the Potomac River

Yerby, Joe. Faithful colored cook died at Pt. Lookout (name not on monument)

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Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:07 am

Petersburg Index-Appeal (Local Newspaper)
May 23, 1886

"There died in this city Saturday morning at the residence of Mr. James Muirhead, a Virginian who cast his fortunes with the Confederacy, and endured many months of weary imprisonment rather than desert his friends and comrades in their misfortune. He was an honest, industrious man, highly esteemed by old Confederate friends and comrades. When he was taken sick a short time ago he was given a home and kindly treated by Mr. James Muirhead. His wants were supplied and the best medical attention also provided by a gentleman whom Richard cooked for during the war who was a member of the famous Sussex Light Dragoons, and with whom Richard was imprisoned for nineteen months. When the Sussex Dragoons were formed at the beginning of the war, and when they became Company H, of the Thirteenth Virginia Cavalry, Richard attached himself to the command. The Sussex Dragoons were a wealthy organization, and each member of the company had his own servant along with him. From April 1861, until the retreat after Gettysburg, Richard remained faithfully attached to the regiment. On the retreat, together with many members of the command, he was captured and carried to Fort Delaware, at which place he was confined as prisoner for five months. He was then taken to Point Lookout and kept there fourteen months, making his prison life nineteen months in all. He was a prisoner at the same time with many old comrades. During his confinement he was held in high esteem by both Confederates and the Federal troops who acted as the garrison. He extended many courtesies to the reserves who were captured on June 9, 1864, and carried to Point Lookout. He was often asked to take the oath of allegiance, release from prison being offered as an inducement. He stood firm to his convictions, however, and loyally remained with his friends, sharing their prison life. Richard was exchanged March 1, 1865, and returned to Petersburg, where he spent the remainder of his life. His funeral will take place this (Sunday) afternoon from Union Street Methodist Church at 4 o'clock, and six gentlemen who were Confederate soldiers will act as pall bearers, namely: Capt. E. A. Goodwyn, Capt. J. R. Patterson, Gen. Stith Bolling, Col. E. M. Field, and Mesrs. Jesse Newcomb and R. M. Dobie. The remains will be interred in Blandford cemetery near the plot where are now buried many of the Confederate dead. All acquaintances, both white and colored, especially the old confederate soldiers who knew and esteemed him in the brave days of "auld lang syne" are invited to attend the funeral."

pall bearers:
Colonel Everard Meade Field, Commander, 12th Virginia Infantry
Captain Edward A. Goodwyn, Company E, 13th Virginia Cavalry
Captain John R. Patterson, Provost Guard, 12th Virginia Infantry
Captain Stith Bolling, Company G, 13th Virginia Cavalry
Private Jesse Miller Newcomb, Company F, 13th Virginia Cavalry
Private Rufus M. Dobie, Company H, 13th Virginia Cavalry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Petersburg Index-Appeal
May 24, 1886

"The funeral of the late Richard Poplar, the colored Confederate soldier, a sketch of whose life was given in the last issue of the INDEX-APPEAL, took place from the Union Street Methodist Church, on Sunday afternoon and was very largely attended, there being a great number of white people in attendance including many ladies. The coffin was covered with beautiful flowers. The funeral service was conducted by the pastor of the church, whose remarks were both touching and appropriate."



Did Blacks Fight for Southern Independence

"Negroes in the Confederate Army," Journal of Negro History, Charles Wesley, Vol. 4, #3, (1919), 244-245- "Seventy free blacks enlisted in the Confederate Army in Lynchburg, Virginia. Sixteen companies [1600,ed.] of free men of color marched through Augusta, Georgia on their way to fight in Virginia."

At Confederate Mound at Indianapolis, Indiana, there are 26 Black Southerners, four Hispanics, and one Cherokee at rest with their white Confederate comrades-in-arms. Although the Blacks were listed universally as "Negro Servants" through the convention of Northern mindset of the 1930s, you will find those which cannot be explained as "servants." Since the death rate at Camp Morton was about 10% we can estimate that about 250 Black Southerners passed through there or were held there: "

KENTUCKY: Christian, J. (Negro Servant), Co. D, Morgan's 2nd Cavalry, d. 11/22/63
Vance, J.W. (Negro Servant), CSA Mail Carrier, d 3/14/64

MISSISSIPPI: Littleton, Solomon (Negro Servant), 3rd Inf., d. 1862 VIRGINIA
Mayo, Henry (Negro Servant), Co. G 36th Inf., d. 3/23/62

UNKNOWN UNITS : Frazier, George (Capt) (Negro Servant), CSA, d. 1863
Considering that the other Black Southerners listed were not listed in relation to any Confederate unit or with a specific occupation such as "Mail Carrier" it is unlikely these men so uniquely listed were personal servants, cooks, or the like. As for George Frazier it is likely that as Shelby Foote has said we will never know how or why he became listed with the rank of "Captain" following his name. None of the other Black Southerners buried there had any rank specified as if it might have been their master's rank. (However, Will McCormack reports that captain, major, minor, commodore, and general were common names given to male slaves.)

North Carolina Troops, Volume I: "When Fort Fisher fell to the Union troops in January, 1865, the following blacks are recorded (by Union forces] as being among the captured Confederates:

Charles Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery), Negro. Captured at Fort Fisher January 15,1865 and confined at Point Lookout, MD, until paroled and exchanged at Coxes Landing, James River, VA, February 14-15, 1865.

Henry Dempsey, Private, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery), Negro. Captured at Fort Fisher January 15,1865 and confined at Point Lookout, MD, until paroled and exchanged at Coxes Landing, James River, VA, February 14-15, 1865.

J. Doyle, Private, Company E, 40th NC Regiment (3rd NC Artillery), Negro. Captured at Fort Fisher January 15, 1865 and confined at Point Lookout, MD, until paroled and exchanged at Boulware's Wharf, James River, VA, March 16, 1865.

Daniel Herring, Cook, Company F, 36th NC Regiment (2nd NC Artillery), Negro. Captured at Fort Fisher January 15,1865 and confined at Point Lookout, MD, until released after taking Oath of Allegiance June 19, 1865"

Union forces carefully recorded three of them as soldiers ("Private") and took them as POWs, then paroled and exchanged them exactly as they did all other Confederates. They made certain to differentiate the cook from the enlisted Black soldiers. Perhaps some of them had been stationed there a very long time.

“The Daily Journal, Evansville, Indiana, November I, 1862: "... Now the news comes to us that seven regiments [7000, ed.] of negroes have been drilled by the rebel authorities to man their fortifications in North and South Carolina...seven regiments of negroes, armed and equipped, had arrived at Wilmington, N.C., to occupy the various rebel fortresses during the sickly season. Is anyone so ignorant as to suppose that the operations of these negroes are to be confirmed to the sickly season? Not a bit of it. They will be used in all seasons..."

Letter of Private Frank Bailey, 34th New York Infantry Regiment to his brother in Middleville, New York: - "West Point, Virginia, 12 May 1862 - I hear that the Rebels sent out a Regt. of ni**ers to fight our men and that they were as naked as when they were born, except the brogues on their feet, and they incited to all sorts of cruelty. It is said that they cut the throats of our wounded and then rob them of every article of any value. The soldiers are death on ni**ers now. If they catch a ni**er in the woods, and there is no officer near, they hang them without any ceremony. Now if this is true that the Southern chivalry as they style themselves put these ni**ers up to such deeds as this, may the curse of good light on them. It is worse than the English were in the Revolution to hire the Indians, but their race is about run when they stoop to such barbarism as that. Yesterday there was two ni**ers hung close by here by our men. One of them had $20.00 government note in his pocket. There is no mistake but the Rebels have black soldiers for I have seen them brought in as prisoners of war. I saw one who had the stripes of an orderly sergeant on his coat. I don't beliee in taking them prisoner, but kill them where ever they find them, that they may never more curse the land with their hateful presence."

Frederick Douglass, Douglass' Monthly, IV (Sept. 1861), pp 516 - "...there are at the present moment many colored men in the Confederate Army... as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders, and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down loyal troops, and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government... There were such soldiers at Manassas and they are probably there still."

Perryville: “This Grand Havoc of Battle," Kenneth W. Noe, The University of Kentucky Press, Lexington, KY, 2001 (page 270) - "The part of Adams' Brigade that the 42nd Indiana was facing were the 'Louisiana Tigers.' This name was given to Colonel Gibson's 13th Louisiana Infantry, which included five companies of' Avegno Zouaves' who still were wearing their once dashing traditional blue jackets, red caps and red baggy trousers. These five Zouaves companies were made up of Irish, Dutch, Negroes, Spaniards, Mexicans, and Italians."

From James G. Bates' letter to his father reprinted in the 1 May 1863 "Winchester [Indiana] Journal" (the 13th IVI "Hoosier Regiment"] was involved in operations around the Suffolk, Virginia area in April-May 1863 ) - "I can assure you [Father], of a certainty, that the rebels have negro soldiers in their army. One of their best sharp shooters, and the boldest of them all here is a negro. He dug himself a rifle pit last night [16 April 1863] just across the river and has been annoying our pickets opposite him very much to-day. You can see him plain enough with the naked ye, occasionally, to make sure that he is a "wooly-head," and with a spy-glass there is no mistaking him.

"Indianapolis Daily Evening Gazette" 12 March 1863 refers to the 5 March 1863 fight around Thompson's Station, near Franklin, TN The 85th Indiana Volunteer Infantry reported: "NEGRO REGIMENTS IN THE REBEL ARMY - During the fight the battery in charge of the 85th Indiana [Volunteer Infantry] was attacked by “two
Rebel negro regiments.” Our artillerists double-shotted their guns and cut the black regiments to pieces, and brought their battery safely off. ... It has been stated, repeatedly, for two weeks past, that a large number, perhaps one-fourth, of Van Dom's force were “ negro soldiers” and the statement is fully confirmed by this unfortunate engagement."

After the action at Missionary Ridge, Commissary Sergeant William F. Ruby forwarded a casualty list written in camp at Ringgold, Georgia about 29 November 1863, to William S. Lingle for publication. Ruby's letter was partially reprinted in the Lafayette (Missouri) Daily Courier for 8 December 1863: "Ruby says among the rebel dead In the [Missionary] Ridge he saw a number of negroes in the Confederate uniform."

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol XVI Part I, pg. 805, Lt. Col. Parkhurst's Report (Ninth Michigan Infantry) on General Forrest's attack at Murfeesboro, Tenn, July 13,1862: "There were also quite a number of negroes attached to the Texas and Georgia troops, who were armed and equipped, and took part in the several engagements with my forces during the day."

Federal Official Records Series 1, Volume 15, Part 1, Pages 137-138, report of the Union commander: "Pickets were thrown out that night, and Captain Hennessy, Company E, of the Ninth Connecticut, having been sent out with his company, captured a colored rebel scout, well mounted, who had been sent out to watch our movements."

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol. XLIX, Part n, pg. 253 - April 6, 1865: "The rebels [Forrest] are recruiting negro troops at Enterprise, Miss., and the negroes are all enrolled in the State."

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol. XIV, pg. 24, second paragraph, Colonel B. C. Christ, 50th Pennsylvania Volunteer Infantry, official report of May 30, 1862, Pocotaligo, SC., "It is also difficult to state the force of the enemy, but it could not have been less than from 600 to 800. There were six companies of mounted riflemen, besides infantry, among which were a considerable number of colored men."

From the diary of James Miles, 185th N.Y. V.I., entry dated January 8, 1865 - "Sargt said war is close to being over. Saw several negros fighting for those rebels."

Miami Weekly News of Miami, Missouri, September 01,1905 - "The following is an account of the Eighth Annual Quantrill's Raiders’ Reunion at Independence on August 25-26, 1905 : "Among those registered Friday morning were Captain Ben Morrow of Lake City, Lieutenant Lee Miller of Knobnoster, Hi George of Grain Valley, Sylvester Akers of Levasy, William Greer of Lexington, John A. Workman of Wellington, George (Jim) Holand of Kansas City (this the Negro spy Quantrill sent to Lawrence)..."

THE PICTORIAL BOOK OF ANECDOTES AND INCIDENTS OF THE REBELLION (p. 319) by Frazer Kirkland, 1889. A collection of Grand Army of the Republic - "NEGRO RIFLEMAN BROUGHT DOWN AT YORKTOWN - One of the best morning's work done at Yorktown was that of reducing to a state of perfect inutility in this mundane sphere, a rebel negro rifleman, who, through his skill as a marksman, had done more injury to our men than any dozen of his white compeers, in the attempted labor of trimming off the complement of Union sharpshooters.

Federal Official Records: Series 2, vol 6, Part 1 (Prisoners of War) p. 17-18 - "...before one single negro or mulatto was mustered into the U.S. service you had them organized in arms in Louisiana. You had Indians and half-breed negroes and Indians organized in arms under Albert Pike, in Arkansas. Subsequently negroes were captured on the battlefield at Antietam and delivered as prisoners of war at Aiken's Landing to the Confederate authorities, and receipted for and counted in exchange."

Federal Official Records, Vol. XIII, Chapter XXV, pg. 688, September, 1862 -"... We are not likely to use one negro where the rebels have used a thousand. When I left Arkansas they were still enrolling negroes to fortify the rebellion. "

Federal Official Records, Correspondence, Etc., Vol. II, pg. 218, July 11, 1862, Rich D. Yates, Governor of Illinois- "...they [the Confederacy] have, by means of sweeping conscription, gathered in countless hordes, and threaten to overwhelm the armies of the Union, with blood and treason in their hearts. They flaunt the black flag of rebellion in the face of the Government, and threaten to butcher our brave and loyal armies with foreign bayonets. They arm negroes and merciless savages in their behalf."

Federal Official Records, Vol. XIX, Chapter XXXI, pg. 617 - Record of the Harper's Ferry Military Commission (U.S.Army) Question. Do you know of any individual of the enemy having been killed or wounded during the siege of Harper's Ferry?
Answer. I have strong reasons to believe that there was a negro killed, who had wounded 2 or 3 of my men. I know that an officer took deliberate aim at him, and he fell over. He was one of the skirmishers of the enemy [Confederate, ed.], and wounded 3 of my men. I know there must have been some of the enemy killed.
Question. How do you know the negro was killed? Answer. The officer saw him fall."

Federal Official Records, Vol. XLI, Chapter LIII, pg. 670 - PATTERSON, [November] 24,1864 - "Colonel MAUPIN: I have arrived with my squad on return. Captain McClanahan has gone on the upper road for Pilot Knob; will all arrive there tomorrow. No rebel force below. We have turned up eleven bushwhackers to dry and one rebel negro. No man hurt on our side. The men are generally well."

Federal Official Records, Series 1, Volume 4, p.569 - Report of Colonel John W. Phelps, First Vermont Infantry: "CAMP BUTLER, Newport News, Va., August 1 I, 186 I - SIR: Scouts from this post represent the enemy as having retired. they came to New Market Bridge on Wednesday, and left the next day. They-the enemy-talked of having 9,000 men. They were recalled by dispatches from Richmond. They had twenty pieces of artillery, among which was the Richmond Howitzer Battery, manned by negroes. . . Their numbers are probably overrated; but with regard to their artillery, and its being manned in part by negroes, I think the report is probably correct."

Federal Official Records, Series 1, vol 35, Part I (Olustee), Page 442-443, S.C., FLA., AND ON THE GA. COAST. Chapter XLVII - Report of BG Asboth, USA. "...when I proceeded to Milton, Fla., a distance of 9 miles, and after rebuilding the destroyed bridge on the Arcadia Creek, I came upon the enemy, about 100 strong, and consisting of Captain Goldsby's (Alabama) cavalry company and a new militia infantry company, mounted...Having received early information of the arrival of two army steamers at Bayou Mulatte, the enemy had sent his stores on seven wagons in time toward Pollard, and seemed prepared and decided to accept a fight in the camp at the upper end of the town, but fled, upon our impetuous charge, in all directions. We pursued them closely for 7 miles, and captured 4 privates of Goldsby's company and 3 colored men, mounted and armed, with 7 horses and 5 mules with equipments, and 20 Austrian rifles."

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol. XVII, Chapter XXIX, Pg. 635-637 - December 28, 1863 - "...It had to be prosecuted under the fire of the enemy's sharpshooters, protected as well as the men might be by our skirmishers on the bank, who were ordered to keep up so vigorous a fire that the enemy should not dare to lift their heads above their rifle pits; but the enemy and especially their armed negroes, did dare to rise and fire and did serious execution upon our men... The casualties in the brigade were 11 killed. 40 wounded, and 4 missing; aggregate, 55. - Very respectfully, your obedient servant, D. STUART, Brigadier-General, Commanding"

Federal Official Records, Series I, Vol. III, Correspondence, etc., pg 767-768 - "CAMBRIDGE, September 4,1863. His Excellency A. LINCOLN, President of the United States: ...excitement here growing out of the recruiting of colored troops, and as some of the recruiting officers are acting rather indiscreetly, I fear, by taking slaves in their recruits, and the slaves of loyal as well as disloyal persons...to enlist slaves as well as free people is creating a great deal of anxiety among the people... we ought to use the colored people, after the rebels commenced to use them against us. "

"The Negro as a Soldier" - Written by Christian A. Fleetwood, Sergeant-Major 4th U.S. Colored Troops, for the Negro Congress at the Cotton States and International Exposition, Atlanta, Ga., November 11 to November 23, 1895 - "It seems a little singular that in the tremendous struggle between the States in 1861-1865, the south should have been the first to take steps toward the enlistment of Negroes. Yet such is the fact. Two weeks after the fall of Fort Sumter, the 'Charleston Mercury' records the passing through Augusta of several companies of the 3rd and 4th Georgia Regt., and of sixteen well-drilled companies and one Negro company from Nashville, Tenn. The Memphis Avalanche and The Memphis Appeal of May 9, 10, and 11, 1861, give notice of the appointment by the'Committee of Safety' of a committee of three persons 'to organize a volunteer company composed of our patriotic freemen of color of the city of Memphis, for the service of our common defense.'"
Slave Narratives. July, 1937, interview with James Cape, former slave and by his own words Black Confederate combat soldier wounded in action: "One day Marster Bob comes to me and says, 'Jim, how you like to jine de army? You see, de war had started. I says to him 'What does I have to?' And he says, "Tend hosses and ride 'em' So de first thing I knows, I's in de army away off east from here [Southeast Texas].' . . . After I gits in de army, it wan’t so much fun 'cause tendin' horses and ridin' wasn' all I does. No, gar, I has to do shootin' and git shooted at! ... You's heard of de battle of Independence [Missouri]? Dat's whar we fights for three days and nights. I'se not tendin horses that time. Dey gives me a rifle and sends me up front fightin' , when we wasn' runnin! . . . I gits shot in de shoulder in dat fight... 'nother time we fights two days and nights..."

Slave Narratives, June 5, 1937 - Alexander B. Johnson, Birmingham, Alabama - "They is all gone, scattered. and old massa and missus have died Then de war came and we all went to fight the Yankees. I was a body servant to the master, and once a bullet took off his hat. We all thought he was shot but he wasn't, and I was standin' by his side all the time...I remember Stonewall Jackson. He was a big man with long whiskers, and very brave. We all fought with him until his death. We wasn't beaten, we was starved out! Sometimes we had perched corn to eat and sometimes we didn't have a bite of nothin', because the Union mens come and tuk all de food for theirselves. I can still remember part of my ninety years. I remembers dey fought all de way from Virginia and winded up in Manassah's Gap...In all de years since de war I cannot forget old massa. He was good and kind He never believed in slavery but his money was tied up in slaves and he didn't want to lose all he had...I knows I will see him in heaven and even though I have to walk ten miles for a bite of bread I can still be happy to think about the good times we had then. I am a Confederate veteran but my house burned up with de medals and I don't get a pension."

Reprinted in the Memphis Daily Avalanche, May 3rd 1861, pg. 3, col. 3 - "Free Colored Men. -A List of thirty-two worthy free negroes of this city, who have offered their services in the work of defense, or in any other capacity required. has been sent in to the Captain of the Woodis Rifles... They express an earnest desire to meet their Yankee enemies, or miserable sable brothers of the North, in a regular hand-to-hand fight. Some of those who have offered to serve in the cause of Southern honor have fought under the old flag...A large number of free negroes of Petersburg have expressed a desire to fight for the South, and we learn that 500 will come down as soon as the word is given... We noticed yesterday several colored men in uniform. They came as musicians with the gallant Georgia troops."

Memphis Daily Avalanche, April 23rd 1861, pg. 3, col. 2. - "An Enthusiastic Negro. - Jim Moore, a negro barber of Bolivar, Hardiman county, in this State, a slave of Dr. Thomas Moore, subscribed $50 for a military company to fight against Lincoln. He also visited Montgomery to see Jeff Davis inaugurated. With few exceptions such is the feeling of all our slaves, who are loyal to a degree that would astonish the fanatics of the North."

Letter from a Union soldier, published in the Indianapolis (Indiana) Star, December 23,1861: "Attack On Our Soldiers By Armed Negroes - A body of seven hundred [Confederate] Negro infantry opened fire on our men, wounding two lieutenants and two privates. The wounded men testify positively that they were shot by Negroes, and that not less than seven hundred were present, armed with muskets. This is, indeed a new feature in the war. We have heard of a regiment of [Confederate] Negroes at Manassas, and another at Memphis, and still another at New Orleans, but did not believe it till it came so near home and attacked our men."

Religious Herald, Richmond, VA, September 10, 1863 (From unedited microfiche of the original article): "To the Confederate army goes the distinction of having the first black to minister to white troops: “A correspondent of the soldier’s friend mentions a Tennessee reg. which has no chaplain; but an old negro, “Uncle Lewis,” preaches two or three times a week at night. He is heard with respectful attention —and for earnestness, zeal and sincerity, can be surpassed by none. Two or three revivals have followed his preaching in the regiment. What will the wise Christian patriots out of the army, who denounce those who wish to see competent negroes allowed to preach, as tainted with anti-slaveryism, say with regard to the true Southern feeling of that regiment, which has fought unflinchingly from Shiloh to Murfreesboro?'"

"Antietam and the Maryland and Virginia Campaigns of 1862 from the Government Records, Union and Confederate, Mostly Unknown and Which Have Now First Disclosed the Truth: Approved by the War Department:" Gaithersburg, MD, Isaac W. Heysinger, Olde Soldier Books, 1987., (Reprint of 1912 edition) - "At 4 o'clock this morning the Rebel army began to move from our town, Jackson's force taking the advance. The most liberal calculation could not give them more than 64,000 men. Over 3,000 Negroes must be included in the number. These were clad in all kinds of uniforms, not only cast off or captured United States uniforms, but in coats with Southern buttons, State buttons, etc. Most of the Negroes had arms, rifles, muskets, sabers, bowie knives, dirks, etc. They were supplied, in many instances, with knapsacks, haversacks, canteens, etc., and they were manifestly an integral portion of the Southern Confederacy army. They were seen riding on horses and mules, driving wagons, riding on caissons, in ambulances, with the staff of generals and promiscuously mixed up with all the Rebel horde."

"Civil War Curiosities," Webb Garrison, 1994, Rutledge Hill Press, pg. 107 - "Like some of their counterparts in the North, a few Southern officers made unofficial and irregular use of black soldiers. From start to finish, an estimated four hundred of them served in the Eighteenth Virginia and other units raised in the state."

Elgin (Illinois) Daily Courier-News, Monday, April 12, 1948 - "Robert (Uncle Bob) Wilson, Negro veteran of the Confederate army who observed his 112th birthday last January 13, died early yesterday morning in the veterans' hospital at the Elgin State hospital...He enlisted as a private in Company H of the 16th regiment of Virginia Infantry on Oct. 9, 1862 and discharged May 31, 1863. "

"Into The Fight - Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg; "John Michael Priest, White Mane Books, 1998, pp 128:, 130-131 "Color Corporal George B. Powell (14th Tennessee) went down during the advance. Boney Smith, a Black man attached to the regiment, took the colors and carried them forward... The colors of the 14th Tennessee got within fifty feet of the east wall before Boney Smith hit the dirt ---wounded. Jabbing the flagstaff in the ground, he momentarily urged the regiment forward until the intense pressure forced the men to lie down to save their lives."

"The Sable Arm: Black Troops in the Union Army, 1861-1865," written by D. T. Cornish. pp 16: "The scouts of the 1st Vermont Infantry reported a Richmond howitzer battery manned by Negroes at Newmarket Bridge, Virginia, in August (1861)."

The Chicago Tribune cited by the Leavenworth (Kansas) Daily Conservative, Sept. 13, 1861: "Negroes are employed by the thousands in the rebel armies to fight against the Union..."

The Leavenworth (Kansas) Daily Conservative, Oct. 6, 1861: "It is well known that negroes and Indians serve in the rebel army..."

"Between Two Fires - Black Soldiers in the Civil War, "Joyce Hansen, 1993, Franklin Watts, 42: "This war between the North and the South gave enslaved men and women an opportunity to take advantage of unstable conditions created by the warring whites. This was one way for some black people to initiate their march for their own freedom. Caught between two fires, they to find a way to survive the conflict. And for some, one way to survive was to volunteer to help the Confederates... The promise of freedom for themselves and their families was enough of an incentive to join the Confederate Army, and the Union had said that it was not fighting to end slavery."
" Negroes in the Confederate Army,"Journal of Negro History, Charles Wesley, Vol. 4, #3, (1919), 244: "The Governor of Tennessee was given permission in June 1861 to accept into the state militia black males between the ages if fifteen and fifty. The men were to receive eight dollars a month, plus clothing and rations."

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TheDoctorKing
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Forgetting

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:00 pm

Barker wrote:As for the reported number of blacks supporting the CSA cause, the PRESENT accepted number is 60,000. This would include, free blacks and slaves. Of that number about 15,000 "saw the elephant." However, since CSA forces did NOT list roster members by race, the actual number is likely to be much higher...Bob Harrison

...

(Citation not on monument)


Do you have a further citation on that Bob Harrison quote? I'd be very interested to know where he came up with the figure of 60,000. Presumably, this includes laborers as well as people who could be classified as troops. Johnston's army in Georgia used a large number of black laborers for the construction of fortifications during the campaign leading up to the Battle of Atlanta, for example.

The number of armed black combatants in the regular CSA forces cannot be estimated at over several hundred. Most of the people you cite were servants or informally accompanied units. In some cases, in the immediate aftermath of the war (most of the newspaper articles in your post seem to come from the 1860's or 1870's, the era of Reconstruction), there was some post-hoc recognition of people who had been "followers" or "servants" as fellow combatants, but I believe few of them would have been formally enrolled at the time.

None of the black militiamen, either those recruited in Tennessee (after the parts of Tennessee where most blacks resided were already controlled by the USA, note) or those recruited in Louisiana at the outbreak of the war, were ever accepted into the regular CSA army. The black units recruited at the very end of the war were never fully operational, only numbered a few hundred men, and I believe were not formally mustered into the CSA army.

You mentioned several ships' crewmen, both naval and private - this is an interesting point. Both sides used blacks as sailors and there was much less public resistance to blacks serving at sea than on land. Famously, Robert Smalls, subsequently a U.S. Senator from South Carolina, was the pilot of a Confederate vessal in Charleston harbor during the war and brought it over to the US Navy when he decided to switch sides. Perhaps the public acceptance of their role was because blacks in the navy were not serving among a civilian population that could see them and perhaps feel at risk.

The last man you cite in your post, who died at Point Lookout, illustrates an important point about blacks in Confederate service. In the years after the war, _both sides_ wanted to ignore their existence. The racial climate in the United States, paradoxically, harshened in the last years of the 19th century. Southern whites were told that they should feel racial solidarity with each other, and with the leaders of their society, instead of the class-based tensions that had actually existed before the war, which had led to many poor whites in remote regions of the south supporting the USA during the war and the Republican party in the Reconstruction era. The "redemption" of the south after the 1876 election meant that poor whites had to distance themselves from blacks, and one symptom of this was that people forgot about the black role in the CSA army.

Indeed, poor whites in the south even forgot that their ancestors had not supported the CSA. In my home county in Virginia, there is a monument in the county seat with the names of all the men who fell in the "lost cause". On the monument is the name of my ancestor, who fought not for the "lost cause" but for the unification of the country - he was in the Union army. Many people today run around with CSA flags on their cars; their ancestors would have been horrified as they fought for that more familiar flag, the one with the parallel stripes and the upper-left quarter blue with stars.

tagwyn
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??

Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:04 pm

Scarce as "hen's teeth!" Like Spike Lee's blacks in combat units in WWII. :niark:

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Barker
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Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:24 pm

The battle rages on in my opinion on the historical context of the battle flag. Its misuse is an abomination. The Stars and Bars is the CSA flag of a nation and after the surrender it was not advisable to fly the flah of a nation that succumbed. The battle flag is a huge contaversy here in the south with many meanings and agendas. I have one agenda, the educational VALUE of what that flag means to me. It represents my gg grandfathers commitment to his unit and to his country. They rallied under that flag and fought on. After the Lee surrendered many a regimental flag was cut and pieces given to the members of the units in which they fought. The did not want their colors tarnished because of surrender.

There was a saying along time ago, "Lee may have surrendered but I never did" Is that pride on the soldiers part or obstinence. I think it was a mixture of several things both black and white. They fought for their nation, died for their nation and bled for their nation. It always bleeds red when a person is shot and the that stainless banner flys high with honor.

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TheDoctorKing
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Flags

Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:02 am

The "stars and bars" was the flag of the CSA _Army_. The CSA national flag was the "bonnie blue flag". The adoption of the "stars and bars" by those seeking to redeem the historical memory of the CSA was a calculated effort to avoid identifying with treason while still honoring the memory of those who served in the Confederate armed forces.

[On blacks in combat units in WWII] This is a little OT but there were actually many thousands of blacks in combat roles in the US military in WWII. There were several US Army divisions (including the 92nd ID that Spike Lee's characters belonged to), the Tuskeegee Airmen (332 FG) in the Air Corps, a number of independent black army combat outfits including the famous 761st Independent Tank Bn (colored) that served in western Europe for 181 days and won a Presidential Unit Citation for inflicting thousands of casualties on the Germans. There were also blacks serving in combat jobs in the Marine Corps late in the war.

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Barker
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Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:46 am

I think this will clarify the flag issue
Attachments
csa.jpg

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Daxil
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Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:41 pm

I have a picture, which evades me right now, that showed the garrison of some Southern fort lined up by company. It clearly showed 3 black drummer boys and I swear, one of the men in the ranks is black. I'll post it when I can so you all can decide.
"We shall give them the bayonet." -Stonewall at Fredericksburg.

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Le Ricain
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Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:17 pm

Daxil wrote:I have a picture, which evades me right now, that showed the garrison of some Southern fort lined up by company. It clearly showed 3 black drummer boys and I swear, one of the men in the ranks is black. I'll post it when I can so you all can decide.


I do not think that anyone is questioning that blacks were present in CSA in mainly non-combattant roles. Seeing your picture would be interesting, but would not useful in demonstrating points. The black in the ranks could have been a cook or an aide.
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'Nous voilà, Lafayette'



Colonel C.E. Stanton, aide to A.E.F. commander John 'Black Jack' Pershing, upon the landing of the first US troops in France 1917

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TheDoctorKing
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Game option

Sat Oct 04, 2008 1:25 am

I wonder if you could have a political option for the CSA in the game permitting a greater use of blacks. There were many voices in the CSA army (most notably Gen. Patrick Cleburne) calling for enrolling blacks in the army with a promise of freedom - something that many other slave societies in the Americas had no problem with. The collective wisdom of southern society was summed up by (I think) Vice-President Alexander Stephens, who said "if the negro can fight then our whole understanding of the world is at fault."

But they might have been convinced of the wisdom of this course earlier, permitting them to take advantage of up to one-half of their population for military purposes. As many posters on this subject have pointed out, there were at least some southern blacks who would have been willing to fight for the Confederacy, if suitably rewarded. The CSA's terrible manpower shortages in the late war might have been significantly less serious. Make it a political option, with a high VP and morale cost to reflect the very signficant resistance in southern society to giving arms to blacks, but giving hundreds of manpower points.

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Eugene Carr
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:50 am

There is an event in the CSA Events file called 'evt_nam_CSA_Slaves1865' which looks like it relates to this I've never actually seen it happen as its set for late on.

Someone maybe wants to change that date so it kicks in earlier to find out what occurs.

There is also a disabled event for 1863 but I'm even less clear on what it does


BTW the quote above is from Howell Cobb.

S!

Just tried this and what you get is a boost towards intervention so its not for recruitment of slaves as such

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TheDoctorKing
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Maybe abolition?

Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:09 am

Maybe the existing event is for the CSA to offer some form of gradual compensated abolition to calm European public opposition. The French (mainly) and British (to a lesser extent) _governments_ wanted to support the CSA in order to weaken the US as a potential rival and ensure access to cheap cotton. But their people were mostly sympathetic to the North, especially the middle class and skilled working class. So they didn't dare go too far. Maybe if the CSA had committed to abolition of slavery this might have made it easier for interventionists in Britain.

Of course, southern (white) public opinion would have been horrified.

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Coffee Sergeant
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:11 am

There is an option for conscription of blacks as CSA, but you don't get it until very late in the game (I've never got that far)

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