Recruitment strategy

[minipol]

Interesting read. To me, it still isn't clear where some support units need to be placed.
In my armies I try to have a hq support unit in the hopes that this gives exp to all troops in the corps attached to the army.
Not sure if it works or if a hq needs to be attached to the corps instead.
Same goes for for instance Bragg. When he commands a division, and that div is included in a corps, does he only train the troops in his div or does he also train the troops in the corps?

I have no idea what benefits there is in stacking troops directly in the army. Before march 1862, yes, but afterwards?
Why stack some art and cav to the army stack. If you do so, do these troops fight every round in a battle?

[Ol' Choctaw]

Training officers train all under their command. If they don’t have a command, a division or in charge of the stack, they are not training. If Bragg is leading a corps, he is training that corps. If he is leading an army he is only training what is in the stack with him. Just don’t make him a lower leader in a stack and expect him to do anything.

HQ units train the stack they are in. If it is with a corps it trains all those units in that stack (only). If they are with the army headquarters (the leader) they train the units in that stack (only). If it is with a stack of lose brigades it still trains what ever is in the stack.

[minipol]

Thanks Ol' Choctaw for the clarification. My hq have been doing next to nothing then, ouch. I will move them to my biggest corps then. What benefits are there to using units in the army stack?

[GraniteStater]

Training officers train all under their command. If they don’t have a command, a division or in charge of the stack,

Dunno 'bout this, big guy. Without launching the app, I seem to recall I disband Whatizface, the Union 3-0-0 of the Western Iron Bde, take the Bde elsewhere and retain him for exactly this; imo, that's all he's good for. I'll look at the tooltip again, but I believe Training Officers are not restricted to stack command & train all in the stack who can use it.

[Ol' Choctaw]

I said training officer. I should have said training master. The two work different.

Training officer brings up troops to regulars, from what ever lower order they start at, a step at a time. They can train 2 regiments per turn.

Training masters add experience to every element under their command each turn (in the stack). HQ Units do the same.

[GraniteStater]

Thanks Ol' Choctaw for the clarification. My hq have been doing next to nothing then, ouch. I will move them to my biggest corps then. What benefits are there to using units in the army stack?

Again, I have some reservations here. HQSupp is Expensive, even compared to Med/Sig/etc. Seems like a real pricey way to get Support benefits to Corps - I look at the new HQSupp as an ideal support for, well, Headquarters. You really don't want your Army HQ stacks to get too involved with a fray - hovering for a just in case intervention, yeah, stuff like that (and even then, I have more reservations - remember, Army stacks do not MTSG in the same exact manner as Corps), but you really don't want them to get smashed up. The HQSupp unit now makes it possible to use them as a rear area, uh...Headquarters! Send the occasional hurt unit there, let it heal; use it as a Training center, and put those Sig Support functions with 3* who can use it overall or as a nice beefer-upper.

Put Med & Eng with Corps, if nothing else - ready to fight faster and defensive benefits quicker - good practical applications. The Sig benefits are CP stuff and traits 'n abilities - a little bit of an abstraction, the benefits of which take a little bit of time to percolate through. Pontoons are really good, too.

But, play it how you wish. Just don't come cryin' to me when you just got yer HQSupp unit all busted up and broken 'cuz you put it with a fighting Corps.

[GraniteStater]

I said training officer. I should have said training master. The two work different.

Training officer brings up troops to regulars, from what ever lower order they start at, a step at a time. They can train 2 regiments per turn.

Training masters add experience to every element under their command each turn (in the stack). HQ Units do the same.

Thanks for the reminder - good distinction, on which I shall refresh myself.

[ArmChairGeneral]

The Sig benefits are CP stuff and traits 'n abilities - a little bit of an abstraction, the benefits of which take a little bit of time to percolate through.

Granite Stater:
Could you expand on this a bit? I only know about the CP effects. The tooltip says +1 CP and +1 per ability level. This means a total of 2 CPs, right? What does it do for traits and abilities? Hopefully you mean it raises all of a leader's special abilities to level 2, that would be a Big Deal, as would a buff to strategic rating.

Just don't come cryin' to me when you just got yer HQSupp unit all busted up and broken 'cuz you put it with a fighting Corps.

But it will hardly ever join combat; it would have to be chosen randomly from all the support units to go in the frontage. If you have enough other support units like artillery or wagons it would only rarely actually be in the frontage, a no better chance than a wagon. I have only occasionally seen wagons take damage even when they fit in the frontage; artillery go through many battles without a hit (that's why they are still intact when you capture them). I am not sure of the exact targeting algorithm, but my experience is that support elements rarely get shot at until there aren't many other fighting elements left. The larger the stack, the lower chance of being chosen in the first place, and so the safer the HQ would be. I use them in front line Corps and have never noticed any damage to an HQ in CW2, although since these stacks are usually winning battles, I may just not have seen what happens to an HQ in the worst case scenario. I have killed Union HQ in combat but only when I have totally destroyed the rest of the fighting forces and am already capturing the wagons and artillery (HQ's can't be captured).

I would be nervous about one if it were in a very small Army stack though (with just Artillery say). If the stack entered standard combat (MTSG has different targeting and entry rules that I cannot speak to) without a lot of other elements around it, it would be more likely to be chosen to participate and also more likely to be targeted in the actual battle resolution. This would apply to any support unit, not just HQ's.

[GraniteStater]

* Hmm...maybe I've been misreading the tooltip all this time. I read it as goosing Abilities.

* The latter is just my gut feeling - as far as hard facts go, it does seem like a kinda expensive way to get Med/Sig support into a Corps. Combat exposure and risk - you could well be entirely correct and most probably are, but I don't like to put my shiny red wagons in harm's way. Just me, although I would swear they were designed for use with ArmyHQs - the way they are constructed, seems like the natural way to go. Don't overlook the training - you can pile up recent recruits at an HQ and train 'em. Plus act as a hospital and enhance the Commanding General.

[Ol' Choctaw]

The HQ Units give experience. They don’t train the troops up. They have to upgrade normally from conscripts or volunteers to regulars. Either that or put a Training Officer with the stack for a few turns.

When units progress from one level of training to the next they lose half of their experience. This means they can go from a three star Militia Unit to a one star Conscript or Volunteer Unit to a no star Regular.

[ArmChairGeneral]

I will look into the sigs as well. The tooltip is vague, I always interpreted the +1 per ability level as applying to the Signal unit's Signal ability, which is why I don't build them, cause 2 CPs for $45 (? don't have game in front of me) didn't look like a good deal compared to the HQ.

I definitely don't overlook the training, it's the best part! It takes many turns of training to bring new forces up to snuff. They need to go up a star in experience to get better in combat (10 xps), and then this experience level increases the chance of auto-upgrade from conscript to regular. Figure about 10-15 turns for an element to go through the process possibly many more. That is a lot of time hanging around in Richmond not doing anything. If you sent the HQ and the fresh troops to the front OTOH, you could fight with the troops immediately and the HQ will still give them experience any time they are stationary, which is actually most of the time. If you are moving around a lot it might take longer to upgrade than training in the rear but they could participate in battles in the mean-time, which usually results in a substantial XP gain and thus a faster upgrade overall. I have better results training at the front than in the rear, and in the largest stacks I have. Once an HQ is in place for a couple of months and a lot of elements have gained experience stars, I start to see upgrades (conscript to regular) in that stack every three or four turns, right at the front where I need them.

Bragg usually gets some or all of the European Brigade in New Orleans trained up to regulars within 6 mos just sitting there, so that's my baseline for the training time estimates. (BTW, New Orleans is the exception to my front line training strategy, I build all my Gulf forces there and leave them training under Bragg until I need to respond to an invasion somewhere.)

[GraniteStater]

The HQ Units give experience. They don’t train the troops up. They have to upgrade normally from conscripts or volunteers to regulars. Either that or put a Training Officer with the stack for a few turns.

When units progress from one level of training to the next they lose half of their experience. This means they can go from a three star Militia Unit to a one star Conscript or Volunteer Unit to a no star Regular.

Yeah, I can never keep it straight. Per my response to you above, I'm gonna refresh myself on this. Thanks, O'C.

[GraniteStater]

I will look into the sigs as well. The tooltip is vague, I always interpreted the +1 per ability level as applying to the Signal unit's Signal ability, which is why I don't build them, cause 2 CPs for $45 (? don't have game in front of me) didn't look like a good deal compared to the HQ.

I definitely don't overlook the training, it's the best part! It takes many turns of training to bring new forces up to snuff. They need to go up a star in experience to get better in combat (10 xps), and then this experience level increases the chance of auto-upgrade from conscript to regular (I am pretty sure this is how it works, and that upgraded then elements reset their experience to 0). Figure about 10-15 turns for an element to go through the process possibly many more. That is a lot of time hanging around in Richmond not doing anything. If you sent the HQ and the fresh troops to the front OTOH, you could fight with the troops immediately and the HQ will still give them experience any time they are stationary, which is actually most of the time. If you are moving around a lot it might take longer to upgrade than training in the rear but they could participate in battles in the mean-time, which usually results in a substantial XP gain and thus a faster upgrade overall. I have better results training at the front than in the rear, and in the largest stacks I have. Once an HQ is in place for a couple of months and a lot of elements have gained experience stars, I start to see upgrades (conscript to regular) in that stack every three or four turns, right at the front where I need them.

Bragg usually gets some or all of the European Brigade in New Orleans trained up to regulars within 6 mos just sitting there, so that's my baseline for the training time estimates. (BTW, New Orleans is the exception to my front line training strategy, I build all my Gulf forces there and leave them training under Bragg until I need to respond to an invasion somewhere.)

Which is why a good game gives much room for different strategies and playstyles. Probably just personal prefs here.

P. S.: Don't give your military secrets away on the boards. There's a Tournament coming, I'm sure

[minipol]

GraniteStater, thanks for your input.
If I understood all of the above correctly:
- training officer trains troops, not restricted to stack command so trains all troops in the stack
- training master gives units experience, only units that are in the stack being commanded
- medics and engineers, pontoons in corps
- better put army hq with the army, and have new troops train there if possible. Putting a training officer in there can be a good idea

[GraniteStater]

See Ol'Choctaw's two posts above on a couple of nice distinctions.

Just for the record, I am not a Numbahs Guy - could well be, have a minor in math, but I play these games, and especially this one, from a 'modeling' perspective. Does the application's behavior reflect historical concerns & realities? Does it fit my understanding of the time period (assuming I know what I'm talking about)? Do certain aspects seem 'fair'?

In AACW, I am on record as being a Big Grouse about Industrialization - there was very little point to doing anything beyond 'Light' in a few selected States. It's just the way the subroutine worked - there was little incentive, for either side, to do the most cursory Industrialization. I flatter myself that the CW2 subroutine may be a result of my somewhat lengthy screeds on what I perceived to be a well-nigh useless screen. The CW2 method is better, IMO - now, it can make a real difference.

Which leads to the CSA being 'goosed' in the game. Well, assume I'm right (which I am, imho) - well, ya gotta, really. A Truly Reflective Historical model of the CSA would be No Fun At All. I don't mind that the model is not truly historical - ya gotta have a game, with chances for both sides. I'm sure there are CSA fanboys who would absolutely refuse any but an April 61 start & I can see why, though I think even the 1862 start is Fair Enough.

CW2 is eminently playable and gives a pretty darn good model of what the problems and opportunites were for both sides. Can't ask for much more than that, unless you want Ace coming into your living room to discharge black powder muskets at you.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Yeah, not too worried, I don't think I will ever end up playing PBEM, I spend too much time posting

I am a CSA fanboy, please don't Nerf us, I like being able to win! I agree, the Industrialization mechanic is one of the best changes in CW2. Maybe historically inaccurate, but a better gaming experience.

Ol'Choctaw,

Just want to make sure I have the mechanics right on this. A conscript that has gained an experience star is more likely to then upgrade (its upgrade chance goes up with experience), correct?

[GraniteStater]

Oh, there's a coupla new handles here I would like to play in PbeM. You're one of 'em. Keeler, too, though it seems both he and I are, essentially, UFBs (although the South can be wicked fun).

Where's Longshanks??? And Pat, get the game, if you haven't already.

[Ol' Choctaw]

Just want to make sure I have the mechanics right on this. A conscript that has gained an experience star is more likely to then upgrade (its upgrade chance goes up with experience), correct?

That is pretty much it.

Ace or Capt. O would have the numbers and % on it. I don’t keep track of numbers that closely.

[ArmChairGeneral]

Thank you ol'Choctaw! I'm not that worried about the actual percentages either, just wanted to confirm the effect.

[pgr]

P. S.: Don't give your military secrets away on the boards. There's a Tournament coming, I'm sure

When and how do we sign up?

Is there any way we can combine this discussion with the wonderful Division Building and Cost Analysis? (possibly stuff the discussion under the empirical work)

By the way, does anyone want to say a word about recruiting ships?

[GraniteStater]

See discussion on naval thread above.

Longshanks ran a tourney last year. I don't want those reponsibilities, myself.

Land Divs:

* In the early going, combine the "Light" brigades, one per Div to flesh out the Div and use as anti-Cav elements. Some here are unaware - Light Inf is anti-Cav; probably not quite as good as dedicated Cav, but effective enough. Helps prevent outright destruction from any routing, among other things.

* Integrated Arty targets "opposite number" formations. "Corps Arty" shoots at targets of opportunity. I usually have 20-lbers as Corps Arty.

* Supply Wagons are Good for Combat.

* Integrate Sharpshooters as much as possible or desired. Don't need more than one to a Div. Not as effective when 'loose'.

* Inf/Inf/Cav brigades are typically a 45 day build, one of the quicker ones. I like to have no more than two Cav elements in a Div, but...after some other comments, due largely to the integrated 6-lber No Upgrade bug, I'll live with a bit more than I would absolutely prefer.

* Any serious Cav Div should have Horse Arty, especially under a good Leader.

* The rule of thumb is no more than four Arty to a Div - any more is Frontage problems. Three is OK, two acceptable. Which tubes is important - range can be huge.