Is is a game design feature that the Western Entente effort in Greece ends at the Serbian border?
A couple of times now a relief force reached the Serbian border but cannot enter. Serbia is forbidden to Western Entente units.
Just curious as the intent and options.
Well, i will try to explain though PHIL THIB can give a better explanation.
This came up in the BETA phase, the problem is Serbia is part of EE and Greece of WE.
Historical explanation-
The World remembers the Belgian violation by Germany but forgets the WE did the same to Greece, Salonika was at war but the Greek nation did not want war, an unusual circumstance arose, the Serbs fought a retreat back into Montenegro and finally into Salonika and then sailed away only to return a year later and participate in the 1918 offensive. The WE basically sat on their a** for 2+ years in a malaria infested camp and steadily lost men to attrition, the Bulgars were reluctant to attack into Salonika and the Germans were already over-stretched with the Western, Eastern and Italian Fronts and also with detachments sent to Constantinople and Palestine. So it was sort of a SITZKREIG which cost the WE a lot of men, almost at the rate of the 'Crimean War' with very little results.
This came up in the BETA phase, the problem is Serbia is part of EE and Greece of WE.
Historical explanation-
The World remembers the Belgian violation by Germany but forgets the WE did the same to Greece, Salonika was at war but the Greek nation did not want war, an unusual circumstance arose, the Serbs fought a retreat back into Montenegro and finally into Salonika and then sailed away only to return a year later and participate in the 1918 offensive. The WE basically sat on their a** for 2+ years in a malaria infested camp and steadily lost men to attrition, the Bulgars were reluctant to attack into Salonika and the Germans were already over-stretched with the Western, Eastern and Italian Fronts and also with detachments sent to Constantinople and Palestine. So it was sort of a SITZKREIG which cost the WE a lot of men, almost at the rate of the 'Crimean War' with very little results.
Rascals, would you live forever? - Frederick the Great.
That's basically it... there were many other elements too, one of them was the political situation in Greece. The king was pro-German (a German descent himself), while Venizelos the PM was pro-Entente...both forces counterbalanced each other in Greece, at least till 1917, and the Allies were reluctant to press through in fear of Greece siding finally with the CP. They had an attempt in Athens that almost degenerated into a war between the Entente and Greece, so prudence was the key word. Everyone remembered also the bloody failure at the Dardanelles and did not want a replica in Greece.
Adding to this, the CiC for the 'Armée D'Orient' in Salonika, French general Maurice Sarrail, was mostly a 'political' general and played the waiting game under orders from Paris. This lasted till 1918, when the new French government wanted more action and Clémenceau appointed a more bellicose commander, Franchet D'Esperey. The Armée d'Orient managed to launch a succesful offensive outside of the "biggest war prisonner camp in Europe" (the nickname the Germans gave to the Salonika camp before) which knocked out Bulgaria from the war and was about to liberate Serbia and enter Hungary when the armistice was signed.
As for the serbs, they retreated through Albania end of 1915 to early 1916. From there, they were evacuated to the island of Corfu (another part of Greece, like the island of Moudros at the Dardanelles entrance, that the entente "occupied" despite international law!), then later again to Salonika (by sea) where they were re-equipped by the French. In 1918, the renewed Serbian army was an important part of the success of the Armée d'Orient offensive....
Adding to this, the CiC for the 'Armée D'Orient' in Salonika, French general Maurice Sarrail, was mostly a 'political' general and played the waiting game under orders from Paris. This lasted till 1918, when the new French government wanted more action and Clémenceau appointed a more bellicose commander, Franchet D'Esperey. The Armée d'Orient managed to launch a succesful offensive outside of the "biggest war prisonner camp in Europe" (the nickname the Germans gave to the Salonika camp before) which knocked out Bulgaria from the war and was about to liberate Serbia and enter Hungary when the armistice was signed.
As for the serbs, they retreated through Albania end of 1915 to early 1916. From there, they were evacuated to the island of Corfu (another part of Greece, like the island of Moudros at the Dardanelles entrance, that the entente "occupied" despite international law!), then later again to Salonika (by sea) where they were re-equipped by the French. In 1918, the renewed Serbian army was an important part of the success of the Armée d'Orient offensive....
It's still true that the entire point of the Allied landing at Salonika was to help out Serbia. Why bother landing there in the game if there's nothing they can do to help?
If the game can't allow WE troops to enter EE territory for mechanical reasons, then instead maybe there could be some sort of decision or event that gives assistance to Serbia (more war supplies, manpower or money, for example) if WE troops occupy the appropriate regions in Greece? (The port and the railway into Serbia.)
Historically, the Allies got the permission of the Greek goverment for the landing, but then the King dismissed Venizelos and cancelled the invitation - the Allies ignored that and arrived anyway (and would later support Venizelos in a coup d'état against the King). However, the speed of the German advance took them by surprise, and by the time the troops were in place Serbia has already been conquered. The Serbian army retreated through Albania, as mentioned.
After that point, the Allies were afraid that evacuating Salonika (after already evacuating Gallipoli) would be too big a loss of face; so the troops were just left there for three years not doing anything much. Then they attacked, defeated Bulgaria, liberated Serbia (is that even possible in the game?) and were about to invade Austria-Hungary itself when the war ended. Arguably, this was the decisive front of the whole war, because when Ludendorff heard the news of Bulgaria's surrender he had a nervous breakdown and told his government the war was now unwinnable and they should ask President Wilson for terms of surrender immediately.
If the game can't allow WE troops to enter EE territory for mechanical reasons, then instead maybe there could be some sort of decision or event that gives assistance to Serbia (more war supplies, manpower or money, for example) if WE troops occupy the appropriate regions in Greece? (The port and the railway into Serbia.)
Historically, the Allies got the permission of the Greek goverment for the landing, but then the King dismissed Venizelos and cancelled the invitation - the Allies ignored that and arrived anyway (and would later support Venizelos in a coup d'état against the King). However, the speed of the German advance took them by surprise, and by the time the troops were in place Serbia has already been conquered. The Serbian army retreated through Albania, as mentioned.
After that point, the Allies were afraid that evacuating Salonika (after already evacuating Gallipoli) would be too big a loss of face; so the troops were just left there for three years not doing anything much. Then they attacked, defeated Bulgaria, liberated Serbia (is that even possible in the game?) and were about to invade Austria-Hungary itself when the war ended. Arguably, this was the decisive front of the whole war, because when Ludendorff heard the news of Bulgaria's surrender he had a nervous breakdown and told his government the war was now unwinnable and they should ask President Wilson for terms of surrender immediately.
The limitations imposed by the engine are right, the attrition in Salonika needs to be much much higher if you want the troops to push in, it should be a logistic nightmare to supply those troops. The camp was Malaria infested and mortality rates were very high for more than 2 years.
All this invasions in 1918 were only possible as the German troops on this front had been withdrawn and the Austrians had also pulled out their share leaving the poor Bulgars at the mercy of the allies. The CP armies on this front were almost wholly Bulgar by end of 1916 itself and Bulgaria was a small balkan nation which did perform quite admirably.
The allies landing in Salonika was without the consent of the King and was akin to the Germans invading Belgium, though UK did good propaganda to not make this known. The UK was keen to get the USA into the war and was doing everything possible to do that.
Venizelos was almost like a perfect counterpart to Pasic, though not as ruthless as Pasic.
Venizelos was an ethnic Cretan just like Pasic was ethnically mixed or even part Bulgar or Macedonian.
Both ruled as PMs with an iron fist for long reigns and earned huge illegal/immoral wealth.
Pasic succeeded in taking Serbia to War, Venizelos failed to do so in Round 1 and then coup'd the King in Round 2 forcing the Greeks to fight a war they didn't want to fight and were not interested in.
All this invasions in 1918 were only possible as the German troops on this front had been withdrawn and the Austrians had also pulled out their share leaving the poor Bulgars at the mercy of the allies. The CP armies on this front were almost wholly Bulgar by end of 1916 itself and Bulgaria was a small balkan nation which did perform quite admirably.
The allies landing in Salonika was without the consent of the King and was akin to the Germans invading Belgium, though UK did good propaganda to not make this known. The UK was keen to get the USA into the war and was doing everything possible to do that.
Venizelos was almost like a perfect counterpart to Pasic, though not as ruthless as Pasic.
Venizelos was an ethnic Cretan just like Pasic was ethnically mixed or even part Bulgar or Macedonian.
Both ruled as PMs with an iron fist for long reigns and earned huge illegal/immoral wealth.
Pasic succeeded in taking Serbia to War, Venizelos failed to do so in Round 1 and then coup'd the King in Round 2 forcing the Greeks to fight a war they didn't want to fight and were not interested in.
Rascals, would you live forever? - Frederick the Great.
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smiljkovic73
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PhilThib wrote: which knocked out Bulgaria from the war and was about to liberate Serbia and enter Hungary when the armistice was signed.
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Serbia was liberated before armistice and some Serbian troops crossed over in Hungary too.
Anyhow, I agree that whole Salonika event is pointless if you can't join WE and Serbian troops. Historicaly, on Salonika front (that's how it is called in Sebian history) Serbian and some Russian troops fought along side French, British and Italian troops. To state taht this is limitation by game mechanics is a bit strange really...just change mechanics than.
Durk wrote:Actually, I appreciate the replies as to history and game design and essentially am fine with the game as designed. There are still sufficient reasons for the Entente to fight in Greece and to do so historically.
When I read an answer like this to the original question above just galls me to no end, making it so difficult to get interested in playing this game for which I purchased some months ago. Sorry, your answer has the appearance of being arrogant.
Have I ever told you guys that I am originally from Salonica (Thessaloniki)? Btw, both Sarrail and D'Esperey have given their names to streets in the city. The fact of the matter is this: Greece was really divided in WW1 about its stance. As Philippe said: the King wanted neutrality (actually staying completely out of the war), the more forward-looking Prime Minister (Venizelos) wanted to join the Entente and be with the winners in order to gain territory against Bulgaria and the Ottomans.
By today's standards, the King would have been correct and morally on the high ground, but back then Venizelos prevailed. To that helped the "insistence" of the Entente, by force of arms essentially.
By today's standards, the King would have been correct and morally on the high ground, but back then Venizelos prevailed. To that helped the "insistence" of the Entente, by force of arms essentially.
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