Bulgarain army grossly understrength in Serbian campaign

[vaalen]

The Bulgarian divisions shown in the Serbian campaign are ordinary in size. This is very inaccurate, because a Bulgarian infantry division in World War one had forty thousand men, and was the size of a corp in other armies. The Bulgarians had eleven divisions totaling over four hundred and forty thousand men, and their divisions had a significant artillery component. The Bulgarians also had other troops organized into brigades and independent battalions.

This is an especially serious mistake in The Serbian campaign, as the Bulgarians have a vital role to play, and are grossly understrength, making it almost impossible to acheive a historical result.

I request that this be corrected in a patch as soon as possible.

[Searry]

Yes. Bulgaria was the most sought after ally after 1914 because they had a vast army. I found it interesting that they have nothing what they historically had. Another weird thing was the "Finnish" divisions Russians have.

[vaalen]

Yes. Bulgaria was the most sought after ally after 1914 because they had a vast army. I found it interesting that they have nothing what they historically had. Another weird thing was the "Finnish" divisions Russians have.

Especially since the real Russian army had no Finnish divisions during that war.

[PhilThib]

The Bulgarian divisions shown in the Serbian campaign are ordinary in size. This is very inaccurate, because a Bulgarian infantry division in World War one had forty thousand men, and was the size of a corp in other armies. The Bulgarians had eleven divisions totaling over four hundred and forty thousand men, and their divisions had a significant artillery component. The Bulgarians also had other troops organized into brigades and independent battalions.

This is an especially serious mistake in The Serbian campaign, as the Bulgarians have a vital role to play, and are grossly understrength, making it almost impossible to acheive a historical result.

I request that this be corrected in a patch as soon as possible.

Good point, can you send some OOBs of those divisions, so that we can create them the right way

[vaalen]

Good point, can you send some OOBs of those divisions, so that we can create them the right way

Based on an old article in the Encyclopedia Britannica, Bulgaria had ten full strength infantry divisions after it mobilized for war. Three of these divisions watched the Rumanian border. Seven were used against Serbia.

Each division had three infantry brigades. Each Brigade had two infantry regiments. Each regiment had four thousand infantry. Each division had two artillery regiments of 36 guns each. These were the main combat parts of the division, though there were other components.

In the game, each regular Bulgarian division has two brigades, of 6,000 men each, and one artillery regiment.
A total of 12,000 infantry and 36 guns.

I would suggest changing this to three brigades, of 8,000 men each, and two light artillery regiments, of 36 guns each.
This would give a total of 24,000 infantry and 72 guns, twice the current strength of the Bulgarian divisions in the game.

The divisions were smaller in peacetime, but were expanded to this strength when mobilized. Most of the reservists and regulars had seen considerable combat in the Balkan wars, and were tough, hardened troops.

After mobilization, Bulgaria had an astonishing twelve percent of its entire population in uniform.

I may be able to give you more information, if you like, but I have to get to my RL work now. Let me know.

[vaalen]

I will quickly add that each regular Bulgarian division also had two squadrons of cavalry. The one regular cavalry division had three brigades of two regiments each, rather than two brigades as shown in the cavalry division in the game.
Unfortunately, my source does not give numbers for the cavalry.

[James D Burns]

Good point, can you send some OOBs of those divisions, so that we can create them the right way

This site is chock full of WW1 links, but unfortunately if you scroll to the bottom no links for Bulgaria are given. Mexico has a link but not a single reference to Bulgaria. Does not bode well for finding anything about the Bulgarian Army online, so hopefully someone has a rare OOB source book with TO&E data in it buried in their personal library and can post some good info.

http://wwi.lib.byu.edu/index.php/Links_to_Other_WWI_Sites

Jim

[hajbrad971]

"The World War I Databook" by John Ellis and Michael Cox ISBN 1 85410 766 6 has information on Bulgarian OOB, command structure and strength (as well as similar info for all belligerent countries). It may be of use if the designers have not already used it as a source.

[PhilThib]

I would suggest changing this to three brigades, of 8,000 men each, and two light artillery regiments, of 36 guns each.
This would give a total of 24,000 infantry and 72 guns, twice the current strength of the Bulgarian divisions in the game..

Although in theory feasible, I am against this, because we'll then be in the same syndrome as in Napoleon, where you find units of vastly different sizes fighting in the combat engine, which unbalances everything. The only "possible" situation to preserve the gameplay balance is to "coin" Bulgarian 'half dvisisions'...in other words we just need to duplicate their current OOB to keep the size right and preserve the gameplay.

[Shri]

Bulgarian weapons on 10 September 1915

251 713 - 8mm rifles Mannlicher M. 1888, M. 1895 with 150 810 600 rounds
9 513 - 8mm carbines Mannlicher M. 1890/95 with 1 781 800 rounds
46 056 - 7.62mm rifles Moisin Nagant M. 1891 with 42 750 000 rounds
54 912 - 10.67mm rifles Berdan 2 with 27 757340 rounds
12 982 - 7.92mm rifles Mauser M. 1890, M. 1893, M. 1903 with 11 188 000 rounds (Turkish war trophies)
3 614 - 7.65mm rifles Mauser-Martiny with 900 000 rounds
12 800 - 15.24mm rifles Krnka M. 1869 with 1.224.000 rounds
995 7mm - rifles Mauser-Koka-Djurich M. 1880/1907 with 86 000 rounds (Serbian war trophies)
1 112 - 10.67mm revolvers Smith & Wesson with 105 320 rounds
3 957 - 7.65mm pistols Parabellum M. 1903 and 9mm pistols Parabellum M. 1911 with 273 000 rounds
248 - 8mm heavy machine guns Maxim M. 1907, M. 1909 with 10 667 763 rounds
19 000 sabres and swords


Strenght of Bulgarian Artillery on 10 September 1915
model - gun - shells

Field Artillery
75mm QF guns Krupp M. 1903, and 75mm QF guns Schneider-Canet M. 1904 : 428 - 249 241
87mm guns Krupp M. 1897: 162 - 68 887
87mm guns Krupp M. 1897 (reserve batteries) : 60 guns - 6854
120mm QF howitzers Schneider-Canet M. 1909: 34 - 17 088
120mm QF howitzers Krupp M. 1891 : 30 - 8 513

Mountain Artillery
75mm QF guns Schneider-Canet M. 1907 : 38 - 52 146 for both QF guns
75mm QF guns Krupp M. 1904 : 65
75mm guns Krupp M. 1886 and 75mm Schneider M. 1897: 42 - 17 859

Fortress and Siege Artillery
150mm QF howitzers Krupp L/14 : 14 - 5 876
150mm howitzers Schneider L/12 : 24 - 8987
150mm guns Krupp L/30 : 10 - 2 780
120mm guns Schneider L/28 : 22 - 9 924
120mm guns Krupp L/25 : 9 - 4 146
105mm QF guns Krupp L/30 : 12 - 1 175
87mm guns Krupp M. 1897 and M. 1886 : 78 - 30 581
75mm guns Krupp M. 1886 : 60 - 21 628
75mm guns Krupp M. 1886 (reserve batteries) : 16 - 2 048
57mm QF guns Gruson M. 1893 : 26 - 38 046
75mm QF anti ballon guns Krupp M. 1912 : 2 - 400
24 pdr (152mm) long guns M. 1867 : 8 - 7 796 for both 24 pdr guns
24 pdr (152mm) short guns M. 1867 : 9
6 inch (152mm) mortars M. 1867 : 12 - 5 565
9 pdr (106.7mm) steel and bronze guns M. 1867 : 48 - 17 197

Coastal and Navy Artillery
240mm QF costal guns Schneider M. 1906 : 2 - 278
100mm QF guns Schneider M. 1898 : 4 - 1 312 (2 on the trainer cruiser Nadezhda)
65mm QF guns Schneider M. 1898 : 2 - 917 (on the trainer cruiser Nadezhda)
47mm QF guns Schneider M. 1898 : 2 - 1 440 (on the trainer cruiser Nadezhda)
47mm semi-automatic guns : 12 - 1 650 (on six torpedo boats)
76.2mm QF gun Armstrong M. 1889 : 1 - 799
57mm QF Maxim- Nordenfeld (or Armstrong) gun : 1 - ?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=143149

All this from Axis History Forum.
The Writers there have very good material and usually are well backed by original sources.
In this case, i unfortunately cannot read - Bulgar,
If anyone can, please see-
SOURCES :
- История на служба "Артилерийско въоръжение" в Българската армия 1878-1990 година, pp. 91-92;
- Кратък обзор на бойния състав, организацията, попълването и мобилизацията на българската армия от 1878 до 1944г., p.199.

Anyway, good to know, Bulgaria is being given Justice to the numbers fielded, after all out of a small population of little over 4 Million, some 0.5 Million were mobilised, huge numbers, relatively well equipped (Balkan and Eastern European Standards) with good officers and relatively good amount of Artillery and Shells.




Bulgarian Army Units at the outbreak of WW1

Infantry
The Bulgarian Army was organized in peace in three Inspection:
1st: (Sofia) : 1st, 6th, 7th, Infantry Division,
2nd: (Plovdiv) : 2nd, 3rd, 8th, 10th Infantry Division,
3rd: (Shumen) : 4th, 5th, 9th, Infantry Division.
In peace each regiment had 2 battalions (druzhina) of 4 companies and one battalion of 2 companies. With the mobilitazion each regimental district provided men for one active regiment with 4 battalions of 4 companies, 1 and half batalion for a reserve regiment, a replacement battalion with 6 companies, 1 Opalchenie (Territorial) battalion (first call), 1 Opalchenie battalion (second call), and 2 etappe companies. But 10th Inf. Division formed only 2 replacement battalions (instead of 4) and no reserve regiments at all. Actually all the replacement regiments formed only 4 companies. The Opalchenie first call battalions could be employed also outside of the Bulgaria, the second call battalions only for the defence of the Homeland.
There were also 20 border guards compagnies. At the mobilisation all of them expanded into battalions with the exception of battalions 11th-13th, covering Turkish border. In the first periods of the war these 17 battalions operated separately later were merged into existing regiments or newly formed regiments.

1st Sofian Inf. Division (Sofia);
1st IBrig. (Sofia): 1st Sofian Inf.Rgt. (Sofia) and 6th Tyrnovo Inf.Rgt. (Sofia);
2nd IBrig.:16th Lovech Inf.Rgt. (Orhanie); 25th Dragoman Inf.Rgt. (Tzaribrod)
In wartime 1st IBrig. created 41st Inf.Rgt., 2nd IBrig. 42nd Inf.Rgt.,which formed the 3rd IBrig.

2nd Tracian Inf. Division (Plovdiv)
1st IBrig. (Plovdiv): 9th Plovdiv Inf.Rgt. (Plovdiv) and 21st Srednogorian Inf.Rgt. (Plovdiv)
2nd IBrig. (Pazardjik);27th Chepino Inf.Rgt. (Pazardjik) and 28th Strema Inf.Rgt. (Karlovo)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 43rd and 44th Inf.Rgt.

3rd Balkan Inf. Division (Sliven)
1st IBrig. (Sliven): 11th Sliven Inf.Rgt. (Sliven) and 24th Black Sea (Chernomorsky) Inf.Rgt. (Burgas)
2nd IBrig. (Jambol): 29th Jambol Inf.Rgt. (Jambol) and 32nd Zagorian Inf.Rgt. (Nova Zagora)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 45th and 46th Inf.Rgt.

4th Preslav Inf. Division(Shumen)
1st IBrig. (Shumen): 7th Preslav Inf.Rgt. (Shumen) and 19th Shumen Inf.Rgt. (Razgrad)
2nd IBrig. (Varna) 8th Coast (Primorsky) Inf.Rgt. (Varna) and 31st Varna Inf.Rgt. (Eski Djumaja
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 47th Inf.Rgt. and 48th Inf.Rgt.

5th Danubian Inf. Division (Ruse)
1st IBrig. (Russe): 2nd Iskyr Inf.Rgt. (Ruse) and 5th Danubian Inf.Rgt. (Ruse)
2nd IBrig. (Veliko Tarnovo): 18th Etyr Inf.Rgt. (Veliko Tarnovo) and 20th Dobrudzha Inf.Rgt. (Veliko Tarnovo)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 49th and 50th RInf.Rgt.

6th Bdin Inf. Division(Vidin):
1st IBrig. (Vidin): 3rd Bdin Inf.Rgt. (Vidin) and 15th Lom Inf.Rgt. (Belogradchik)
2nd IBrig. (Vratza): 35th Vratza Inf.Rgt. (Vratza) and 36th Kozloduj Inf.Rgt. (Orjahovo)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 51st and 52nd RInf.Rgt.

7th Rila Inf. Division (Dupniza):
1st IBrig. (Kjustendil): 13th Rila Inf.Rgt. (Kjustendil) and 26th Pernik Inf.Rgt. (Radom)
2nd IBrig. (Samokov): 14th Macedonian Inf.Rgt. (Gorna Djumaja) and 22Thracian Inf.Rgt. (Samokov)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 53rd and 54th RInf.Rgt.

8th Tundzha Inf. Division (Stara Zagora):
1st IBrig. (Haskovo): 10th Rhodopean Inf.Rgt. (Haskovo) and 30th Shejnovo Inf.Rgt. (Semeonovgrad)
2nd IBrig. (Stara Zagora):12th Balkan Inf.Rgt. (Stara Zagora) and 23rd Shipka Inf.Rgt. (Kazanlak)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 55th and 56th RInf.Rgt.

9th Pleven Inf. Division (Pleven)
1st IBrig. (Pleven): 4th Pleven Inf.Rgt. (Pleven) and 17th Dorostol Inf.Rgt. (Pleven)
2nd IBrig. (Svistov): 33rd Svistov Inf.Rgt. (Svistov) and 34th Trojan Inf.Rgt. (Lovech)
In wartime: 3rd IBrig .: 57th and 58th RInf.Rgt.

10th Mediterranean (Belomorska) Inf. Division (Gumurdzhina)
1st IBrig. (Xanthi); 37th PInf.Rgt.in Inf.Rgt.(Xanthi) and 38th Odrinean Inf.Rgt. (Kyrdzhali)
2nd IBrig. (Gumurdzhina): 39th Salonika Inf.Rgt. (Gumurdzhina) and 40th Mediterranean (Belomorski) Inf.Rgt. (Dedeagach)
10th Inf. Division did nott form a reserve brigade.

In october 1915 11th Macedonian division was raised with more than 33 000 Macedonian emigrants It consisted of 1st-6th Macedonian Inf.Rgt., later 59th-64th Inf.Rgt.) of 3 batalions each.

Cavalry
There were 4 cavalry brigades and 11 cavalry regiments of 4 squadrons each.
Lejbgard Cavalry Regiment (Sofia).
1st Cav.Brig. (Sofia): 1st Cav.R. (Sofia),2nd Cav.R. (Lom) and 5th Cav.R. (Breznik)
2nd Cav.Brig. (Sliven): 3rd Cav.R. (Plovdiv), 4th Cav.R. (Jambol) and 7th Cav.R. (Sliven)
3rd Cav.Brig. (Russe): 9th Cav.R. (Ruse) and 10th Cav.R. (Shumen)
4th Cav.Brig. (Dedeagach): 6th Cav.R. R (Harmanli) and 8th Cav.R. (Dedeagach)

Artillery
There were 10 artillery regiments of 9 batteries each (assigned to the Infantry Division)
1st Arty.Rgt. (Razgrad (5th Inf. Division), 2nd Arty.Rgt. (Vratza) (6th Inf. Division), 3rd Arty.Rgt. (Plovdiv) (2nd Inf. Division), 4th Arty.Rgt. (Sofia) (1st Inf. Division), 5th Arty.Rgt. (Shumen) (4th Inf. Division), 6th Arty.Rgt. (Sliven) (3rd Inf. Division), 7th Arty.Rgt. (Dupnica) (7th Inf. Division), 8th Arty.Rgt. (S.Zagora) (8th Inf. Division), 9th Arty.Rgt. (Sevlievo) (9th Inf. Division) and 10th Arty.Rgt. (Gumurdzhna) (10th Inf. Division).
With the mobilitazion they created 10 Artillery Brigades of 2 Artillery Regiments (on paper 6 batteries each, but 15 batteries were lacking and were usually replaced with mountain artillery batteries)
Directly subordinated to the Artillery Inspection:
-- 3 mountain artillery regiments; 1st (Berkovitza), 2nd (Dupnitza) and 3rd (Asenograd) with 6 (1st and 3rd regiments) or 8 (2nd regiment) batteries in peace.
-- 3 howitzers artillery regiments of 6 batteries; 1st (Sofia), 2nd (Stara Zagora) and 3rd (Shumen)
-- 3 fortress artillery regiments in Sofia, Shumen and Vidin. At the outbreak of the war they formed three heavy artillery regiments.

Engineer
5 Pioneer battalions: 1st (Sofia), 2nd (Plovdiv), 3rd (Jambol), 4th (Shumen), 5th (Nikopol). With the mobilitazion they formed 10 battalion attached to the Infantry Division. Every battalion had 2 pioneer companies, 1 telegraph half-company and 1 pontoneer half-company.
Directly subordinated to the Engineer Inspection:
-- 1 pontoneer battalion (2 heavy company with 53m bridging material system Birago and 2 light companies with 150m Austrian bridging material)
-- 1 telegraph battalion (3 telegraph and optic companies and 1 radio-telegraph company)
-- 1 railroad battalion (3 operation and 3 construction companies)
-- 1 specialist battalion with :
------ searclight company
------ automobile company with 68 motor vehicles (with the mobilitazion 95 civil cars and lorries were added);
------ balloon company with 750 cubic metres kite ballon "Solun"
------ aeroplane unit with 2 twin seat Albatros B-1, 2 two-seat Bleriot IX-2, 1 single seat Bleriot IX bis

[Shri]

Sorry for double post-

Basically,
9 Frontline Infantry divisions of 2 Infantry Regiments + 1 Light Artillery.
1 Mountain Division with Light Artillery
2 Cavalry Divisions with attached light artillery
5 Militia divisions with no artillery.
3/4 Medium Artillery + 1/2 Heavy Artillery at Army Level (if you give 4 Medium, then give only 1 Heavy or else 3 Medium and 2 Heavy Artillery).
Alternatively 3 Medium Artillery + 3 heavy Artillery (formed using the Fortress Artillery Cards)
1 Balloon, 1 Airplane and 1 Signals.
In addition 10 Regular Replacement Chits and 5 Militia Chits in the Replacement Section signifying the excess brigades which could have been formed (or were formed in Late 1915) for which immediate support/guns/ammo was not available. (but these were mostly trained veterans)

Basically 2 relatively strong or 3 somewhat weak armies can be formed easily (depends on player and style).

[Searry]

Although in theory feasible, I am against this, because we'll then be in the same syndrome as in Napoleon, where you find units of vastly different sizes fighting in the combat engine, which unbalances everything. The only "possible" situation to preserve the gameplay balance is to "coin" Bulgarian 'half dvisisions'...in other words we just need to duplicate their current OOB to keep the size right and preserve the gameplay.

This sounds like a good idea. I was thinking about the double size divisions and it would be harmful for gameplay to have different sized units.

[vaalen]

Although in theory feasible, I am against this, because we'll then be in the same syndrome as in Napoleon, where you find units of vastly different sizes fighting in the combat engine, which unbalances everything. The only "possible" situation to preserve the gameplay balance is to "coin" Bulgarian 'half dvisisions'...in other words we just need to duplicate their current OOB to keep the size right and preserve the gameplay.

Now that I understand this, perhaps another solution would be to change the Bulgarian divisions into Corps, since thet was their effective size, anywau. You could put four 6,000 man infantry brigades into each Bulgarian corps, plus two light artillery regiments, and other units if needed for the engine to work properly. This would match other corps in the game, and should work. And Bulgaria would no longer be nerfed.

This solution should work for the campaign games, and the Serbia and Rumania scenarios.

[PhilThib]

That's more or less the plan

[vaalen]

That's more or less the plan

Excellent news! Thank you.

[Papa Thomas]

That's more or less the plan

When, or what patch do you expect this change?

Also Shri thank you for your work on this

[Shri]

@Papa Thomas

Thanks.
Anytime ready to help. As a BETA, i think i speak for the whole BETA groups, that they feel they are also part of this project in whatever small way possible.

@vaalen
Thanks for bringing up this topic, this was a serious 'miss' by me and other BETAS.

@PhilThib
Thanks for agreeing to implement this and remove the artificial nerf for Bulgaria.
This should make Bulgaria stronger than Romania and Greece (As Historical) and >= Serbia (again Historical).
Coupled with a good multinational Army commander like von Bojna (Austria/Croat) or Mackensen, the Bulgars will be a serious threat now, as they were Historically in both the Serbian, Romanian and Salonika Fronts (for nearly 3+ years the Bulgars fought very well, quite a stupendous effort for a small Balkan country).

[vaalen]

You are most welcome, Shri. Thank you for all your hard work and dedication to this fascinating game.

[Pocus]

When, or what patch do you expect this change?

Also Shri thank you for your work on this

We will soon start releasing public betas for the next EAW patch. The first public beta will have fixed and improved traffic rule by the way.