Blockading the Chesapeake and beyond
If I blockade the Naval Zone Cape Henry, to I also blockade everything up the Chesapeake Bay to Maryland?
no, to blockade a given port, you need to blockade its exit points. Yes this is very simplistic, and can be improved. But taking your example, if we start to use the concept of pathfinding (blockading a strait to blockade all harbors served by it), then in the end we will have players blockading the 4 or so sea zones around the shipping box, and then claiming that every CSA harbor should now be blockaded.... So where would be the limit?
To be debated we agree.
To be debated we agree.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
I understand the concern, Pocus.
However, when it comes to the Chesapeake Bay (where I lived out my youth, in Va Beach, Norfolk, Chesapeake and trips to DC, Frederick, Richmond, Yorktown, Williamsburg, the Delmarva, etc, etc,) the Chesapeake Bay is an Estuary, not an Ocean. It is a rather unusual piece of Geography, not unlike a Fjord; formed the same way during an Ice Age.
The French blockade off the Virginia Capes sealed Cornwallis' fate at Yorktown.
Then, of course, we have the reason for the Monitor and CSS Virginia fight, to unblock the blockade of the Capes to allow ocean going traffic into Richmond.
In this case it was Hampton Roads be blocked by the US fleet and Ft. Monroe at Hampton.
Hampton Roads gets its name as a Sea Lane through the region into the Va. Capes to the Sea, and into the Bay onto points beyond.
Whomever controls traffic through Hampton Roads controls the entire bay. The distance between Hampton (Ft. Monroe) and Norfolk (Gosport Navy Yard) is not all that great, as well know by the actions of the one CSS Virginia. That one boat threatened all naval traffic to DC and Baltimore.
For the Virgina Capes, I think a special case should be made to blockade the entire Estuary, if, say 8 warships are there instead of the 4 needed to just blockade Norfolk.
The other zones are gameplay zones, and only loosely effect the geography inland - the Virginia Capes; that is a different matter.
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I'd even go so far as to allow Bateaux traffic on it, up to but not including the Virginian Capes.
I'd like to see a consideration on this for BoA 2.0, and perhaps open an entire discussion on the Naval Warfare and blockade component of the game.
... ya see, there also Special Considerations with the barrier Islands system off of North Carolina .... there are a few checkpoints that plug up the whole thing. But dangerous - for example, if we had Oceanic weather in the game, we should see shipwrecks, esp off of North Carolina (and other places, but the coast of North Carolina is known as the Graveyard of the Atlantic), as happened to the USS Monitor. AMOF, the reason the Barrier Island system exists is because of Nor'easters and Hurricanes, combined with Glacial sediments being shifted to form immense tidal flats and sandbars that form the barrier island chain/strip.
However, when it comes to the Chesapeake Bay (where I lived out my youth, in Va Beach, Norfolk, Chesapeake and trips to DC, Frederick, Richmond, Yorktown, Williamsburg, the Delmarva, etc, etc,) the Chesapeake Bay is an Estuary, not an Ocean. It is a rather unusual piece of Geography, not unlike a Fjord; formed the same way during an Ice Age.
The French blockade off the Virginia Capes sealed Cornwallis' fate at Yorktown.
Then, of course, we have the reason for the Monitor and CSS Virginia fight, to unblock the blockade of the Capes to allow ocean going traffic into Richmond.
In this case it was Hampton Roads be blocked by the US fleet and Ft. Monroe at Hampton.
Hampton Roads gets its name as a Sea Lane through the region into the Va. Capes to the Sea, and into the Bay onto points beyond.
Whomever controls traffic through Hampton Roads controls the entire bay. The distance between Hampton (Ft. Monroe) and Norfolk (Gosport Navy Yard) is not all that great, as well know by the actions of the one CSS Virginia. That one boat threatened all naval traffic to DC and Baltimore.
For the Virgina Capes, I think a special case should be made to blockade the entire Estuary, if, say 8 warships are there instead of the 4 needed to just blockade Norfolk.
The other zones are gameplay zones, and only loosely effect the geography inland - the Virginia Capes; that is a different matter.
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I'd even go so far as to allow Bateaux traffic on it, up to but not including the Virginian Capes.
I'd like to see a consideration on this for BoA 2.0, and perhaps open an entire discussion on the Naval Warfare and blockade component of the game.
... ya see, there also Special Considerations with the barrier Islands system off of North Carolina .... there are a few checkpoints that plug up the whole thing. But dangerous - for example, if we had Oceanic weather in the game, we should see shipwrecks, esp off of North Carolina (and other places, but the coast of North Carolina is known as the Graveyard of the Atlantic), as happened to the USS Monitor. AMOF, the reason the Barrier Island system exists is because of Nor'easters and Hurricanes, combined with Glacial sediments being shifted to form immense tidal flats and sandbars that form the barrier island chain/strip.
(Interested since the same mechanisms are used in AACW and I spent some time pondering this in my game yesterday)
How about not using pathfinding all the way into the shipping box, but rather stop when the path reaches "open waters", e.g. when one zone away from the coast. That way it would be possible to block choking points and/or encircle estuaries, while at the same time not allowing a strategy of boxing in the shipping box?
How about not using pathfinding all the way into the shipping box, but rather stop when the path reaches "open waters", e.g. when one zone away from the coast. That way it would be possible to block choking points and/or encircle estuaries, while at the same time not allowing a strategy of boxing in the shipping box?
the whole problem is to have a good system without using any pathfinding, the mechanic always take time to calculate things, and this is the last thing people want. Also it asks significantly more code on my side, so more time (that I can't spend on something else).
But we had another idea with PhilThib about that, each harbor will have a list of regions which can blockade it (to be defined in the data base). So the code will look in this list and there won't be any use of the pathfinder.
But we had another idea with PhilThib about that, each harbor will have a list of regions which can blockade it (to be defined in the data base). So the code will look in this list and there won't be any use of the pathfinder.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
Maybe. The Royal Navy did blockade Brest during the Napoleonic wars with a distant blockade, rather than standing in close to the coast. The problem was that it was ship-intensive, requiring lots of frigates and also exposing the blockading ships to the Atlantic weather for long periods.
Actually, I think I agree with you. It could be done, but probably not realistically with the resources available in-theatre, and so shouldn't be an option in the game.
Actually, I think I agree with you. It could be done, but probably not realistically with the resources available in-theatre, and so shouldn't be an option in the game.
Yep. I was refering to saintsup's comment about blockades only being possible close in given 18th C tech. My point was that a 'sea zone blockade' probably wasn't technically impossible but still shouldn't be in-game. But some way of effectively blockading the Chesapeake - perhaps with Pocus' rather neat list of areas check - would be excellent.
Here is an accurate and concise explanation of the Battle of the Chesapeake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Chesapeake
Take note of the following;
"When the British fleet of 19 ships, now under Graves's command, arrived back at the Chesapeake on the morning of September 5, they found 24 French ships at anchor behind Cape Henry. The remaining 3 ships of de Grasse's fleet had been detached to blockade the York and James Rivers farther up the bay, and many of the ships at anchor were missing officers, men, and boats who were busy landing the French troops."
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Those James River and York River patrols were for local light shipping and ferry traffic; bateaux.
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If Nelson had found the French fleet at anchor, he would of smashed it then and there. He was famous for this several times.
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In this attached picture, you will see the rationale of needing more than the default four ships to blockade the Chesapeake - 12 or more would be perhaps the right number.
So, using a database method for sea zones, it might be of this logic;
If Ships >4 and <12, then blockade local ports; if => 12, block this list.
The number range is open to debate, as are the zones to get this kind of rule, or we can leave it as is. A maximal number to block local ports, and another maximal to block more. 'upstream' does sound reasonable though.
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Looking at the defined sea zones in BoA, Hampton Roads blockades the York and James River by default, as well as Norfolk, the Chesapeake Bay Zone blockades nothing, and the Zone Above that blockades three ports (Baltimore, Annapolis and Campbridge), the Potomac Mouth blocks Alexandria, and Sesquehena Mouth blocks Head of Elk.
If we had multiple upstream blockade for the Virginia Capes, the correct number of minimal ships to do this to equal covering the 4 zones defined in BoA to block all these ports would be 16 Ships.
To blockade upstream from Hampton Roads would also be a minimum of 16 ships.
A blockade force in the Capes Zone blockades nothing in BoA now, and likely should not.
Referencing the description of the battle above, 'behind Cape Henry' for the French Fleet position would put it in the Hampton Roads Sea Zone. That force at that position is what halted the British from entering. The Battle off the Virginia Capes happens to be where the French and the British conducted the battle relative to the blockade in the Hampton Roads Sea Zone.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Chesapeake
Take note of the following;
"When the British fleet of 19 ships, now under Graves's command, arrived back at the Chesapeake on the morning of September 5, they found 24 French ships at anchor behind Cape Henry. The remaining 3 ships of de Grasse's fleet had been detached to blockade the York and James Rivers farther up the bay, and many of the ships at anchor were missing officers, men, and boats who were busy landing the French troops."
----------------
Those James River and York River patrols were for local light shipping and ferry traffic; bateaux.
------------
If Nelson had found the French fleet at anchor, he would of smashed it then and there. He was famous for this several times.
------------
In this attached picture, you will see the rationale of needing more than the default four ships to blockade the Chesapeake - 12 or more would be perhaps the right number.
So, using a database method for sea zones, it might be of this logic;
If Ships >4 and <12, then blockade local ports; if => 12, block this list.
The number range is open to debate, as are the zones to get this kind of rule, or we can leave it as is. A maximal number to block local ports, and another maximal to block more. 'upstream' does sound reasonable though.
---------------
Looking at the defined sea zones in BoA, Hampton Roads blockades the York and James River by default, as well as Norfolk, the Chesapeake Bay Zone blockades nothing, and the Zone Above that blockades three ports (Baltimore, Annapolis and Campbridge), the Potomac Mouth blocks Alexandria, and Sesquehena Mouth blocks Head of Elk.
If we had multiple upstream blockade for the Virginia Capes, the correct number of minimal ships to do this to equal covering the 4 zones defined in BoA to block all these ports would be 16 Ships.
To blockade upstream from Hampton Roads would also be a minimum of 16 ships.
A blockade force in the Capes Zone blockades nothing in BoA now, and likely should not.
Referencing the description of the battle above, 'behind Cape Henry' for the French Fleet position would put it in the Hampton Roads Sea Zone. That force at that position is what halted the British from entering. The Battle off the Virginia Capes happens to be where the French and the British conducted the battle relative to the blockade in the Hampton Roads Sea Zone.
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Wilhammer wrote:
Hampton Roads gets its name as a Sea Lane through the region into the Va. Capes to the Sea, and into the Bay onto points beyond.
Are you sure? I have always assumed that the name came from the Hampton roadstead. Certainly places like Yarmouth roads in England and the Brest Roads in France take their name from the fact that they are roadsteads. And Hampton roads is very much a roadstead.
More on topic, the Delaware is only slightly harder to blockade than the Chesapeake. A fleet off Cape May could block egress from Philadelphia.
Quercus wrote:Maybe. The Royal Navy did blockade Brest during the Napoleonic wars with a distant blockade, rather than standing in close to the coast. The problem was that it was ship-intensive, requiring lots of frigates and also exposing the blockading ships to the Atlantic weather for long periods
Depends of what you call distant. I'm no expert in the fact your refering too and we don't have the 'BOA like' map for northern France (yet ...
) but maybe what you call a 'distant blockade' would probably be in the adjacent sea zone of the port due to the scale of the map.
I'm too lazy to measure the mean distance from coast for the non adjacacent sea zones or the mean surface of those sea zones but I still don't see any fleet of a few dozens ships 'blockading' this.
And BTW, Pocus was arguing against the high-sea blockade as 'gamey' but not for plausability reasons
about your (sound) proposal Wilhammer: when the code will be redone, I will switch to a blockade value using the Blockade parameter of the ships. For now I'm counting ship units, whatever the kind (must not be a transport though), so this is not much accurate.
Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."
About counting 'warships', if the transport has a combat value, does it count now as a warship? I guess from what you wrote, it does not.
"will switch to a blockade value using the Blockade parameter of the ships" Do you mean Warships will have a weight, of some kind? Makes sense, as your warship counters actually have elements of 3-4 ships in them, and my 'argument' is involves counting individual ships, which means, if I leave four warship counters in an area now, I have 12-16 ships, actually.
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As for (sound) proposal, do you mean the proposal is sound, or that we are talking about nautical 'sounds'
?
"will switch to a blockade value using the Blockade parameter of the ships" Do you mean Warships will have a weight, of some kind? Makes sense, as your warship counters actually have elements of 3-4 ships in them, and my 'argument' is involves counting individual ships, which means, if I leave four warship counters in an area now, I have 12-16 ships, actually.
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As for (sound) proposal, do you mean the proposal is sound, or that we are talking about nautical 'sounds'
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Carrington
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Pocus wrote:the whole problem is to have a good system without using any pathfinding, the mechanic always take time to calculate things, and this is the last thing people want. Also it asks significantly more code on my side, so more time (that I can't spend on something else).
But we had another idea with PhilThib about that, each harbor will have a list of regions which can blockade it (to be defined in the data base). So the code will look in this list and there won't be any use of the pathfinder.
I notice this was implemented in AACW, though it seems like there's still a lot of incentive for the Union to blockade all the way up the James river...
But I may be over-estimating the value of blockading the port (as opposed to catching the blockade runners -- who have to path through Hampton Roads).
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