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Narwhal
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*** Guide : How frontage works ***

Sun Sep 30, 2012 5:31 pm

One of my few issues with AGEOD games is that battles are a bit of a blackbox. You know what gets in, you get a result, but you do not know what happened. AGEOD has been trying to improve this in the last games, but battles are still complex events, hard to decipher.
Right now, we are going to talk about frontage ; when knowing who won a battle, troop quality or leader quality is obvious, but frontage is less so.

Frontage is the number of troops (or more accurately, the number of points of “frontage weight” of troops) that can take part in a given round in a battle. As you know, there is little point outnumbering your opponent 10 000 to 300 if your opponent is holding a pass where only 300 men can stand. Well, yes there is a point because you can replace your men that fell, but you get the idea.
Each terrain in the game has, for a given weather, a “maximum” frontage and a “frontage weight” by type of troops.

This information is in your AE/GameData/Terrain in notepad file, here is for instance the effect of Hills by clear weather for frontage [Note : this is for the Beta version, it changed in 1.00, but the calculation will be the same] :

Image

The important information is the unit weight by type and the maximum frontage for combat unit [Combat_Units_Quota].
There is also a maximum frontage for support unit (siege weapons, supply wagons, HQ units), but AJE is not Revolution Under Siege, so you will never or almost never reach the maximum support frontage in a battle, so I will ignore it. Basically, it works just like “combat frontage”.

Finally, there is a “Combat_Units_OffCost” data. It is a malus for units in attack in frontage – mostly used for crossing, assault of cities, … In this case, there is no malus (100%), except for support units but remember, in AJE we don’t care for support units :)

The “type” of units from the Frontage point of view is the movement type. Here are two examples :

Image

Image

Note that, for this purpose, “Line Infantry” means “Medium Infantry”. Don’t ask me why.

I opened a new Sulla vs Marius scenario and I am going to now launch a few clashes on hilly terrain with clear weather between the starting armies of Archelaos and Sulla. Archelaos is on offense (this is important, we will see that later).

Image

Here is the weight of every element involved :
Image

Note that I did not mention the Legatus Legionis element of the legion. I did not because it is considered a support unit, and thus would be on the support unit frontage, if it ever engaged – which it does not. You can see it there :

Image

Now, here is the result of our first test (detailed information) :

Image
Image


On the detailed sheet, you have the number of elements committed for each unit. This allows you to check that the maximum frontage of 130 is respected by both sides.

Image

There is a small quirk with the Romans, as I don’t know, for Legions, whether cavalry or cohorts committed. Yet, since there is 10 cohorts for one cavalry element, I can suppose that only 1 cavalry element committed out of the 11 legion elements. In any case, the results are the same.

Now, let’s suppose another scenario : the Roman attack the Pontics, who are then in defense. The battle occurs, and the Pontics are getting beaten silly, as usually.

Image
Image

So here is the calculation for frontage weight committed:

Image

As you can see, the Pontics went well beyond the 130 limit for frontage. Why ? Because Archeleos has a deployment bonus when in defense :

Image

This trait adds 20% to his frontage, if and only if he is in defense.

130 * 1,2 = 156, so the frontage limit is actually respected in this battle. Note that the Romans are stuck at 130 frontage.

Now, let’s see a last case. Clear terrain, mud (=rain) :

Image

Archelaos is once again in attack, in clear terrain. And here are the results :

Image
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The number of elements involved is obviously way above what the frontage would allow. Why ?

There is special bonus to know ; in open terrain only (clear, prairie, desert, wood), the Units Quotas are modified by leader rank and offensive / defensive whether he in offensive or defensive posture:

• Combat Units Quota : bonus of 25 * [Rank + Rating] bonus frontage
• Support Units Quota: bonus of 10 * [Rank + Rating] bonus frontage

Given this information, here is a calculation of the maximum frontage :

Image
Correction : it should read "Offensive : 4 for Archelaos

The frontage rule is respected.

Should I remember all this ?

No !

What you should remember, though, is that :

- You won’t beat legions (or Caesar’s veterans, or Sulla's crack troops) by number alone, you will beat them by number IF you can find a place where you can bring your superior number AND a leader with a strong skill

- Clear terrain with no rain is a must if you are playing number against quality

Image

As you can see, in clear terrain by clear weather the maximum frontage does not change but the “weight” of units is almost half of the one rainy weather. The two initial forces of Archaleos and Sulla can commit at 100% if you ever did this – and Archaleos gets a beating

- Mixing poor quality units with good quality units can be a bad idea, as your poor quality units will use up frontage without the punch.

IMPORTANT NOTE : To take the examples in this AAR, I used the beta version of the Terrain files. As of 1.00, those have changed :


Hill frontage is now 200
Clear terrain frontage is now 270.
The weights have not changed.

Cfant
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Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:33 pm

Wow, 1000 thanks for that work! :thumbsup: Helps a lot! Will have to think about it, for sure, it helps understanding the engine. Very nice of you, to take the time to explain. :coeurs:

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Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:37 pm

Cfant wrote:Wow, 1000 thanks for that work! :thumbsup: Helps a lot! Will have to think about it, for sure, it helps understanding the engine. Very nice of you, to take the time to explain. :coeurs:


he has more of this good things, more in depth training in his exquisite AAR

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?632034-The-Hero-The-Traitor-and-The-Barbarian-an-AJE-PBEM-Beginner-AAR
...not paid by AGEOD.
however, prone to throw them into disarray.

PS:

‘Everything is very simple in War, but the simplest thing is difficult. These difficulties accumulate and produce a friction which no man can imagine exactly who has not seen War . . . in War, through the influence of an infinity of petty circumstances, which cannot properly be described on paper, things disappoint us, and we fall short of the mark.‘

Clausewitz

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Random
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Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:45 pm

Thank you, this explains much!

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Pocus
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Mon Oct 01, 2012 9:15 am

This is an awesome help, congrats Narwhal!
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

cwegsche
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:26 am

Thanks very much for the description! Another question arised when playing yesterday:

If you put two forces with a 2star commander in a province with say two legions each, is frontage calculated within battle just for the most senior commander who takes the lead or is it divided between the two forces using max frontage for each stack?

Cfant
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:22 pm

I have a few questions to the explanations.

1. The weather won't change during the interturn, true?

2. To block a superior enemy army, it would be wise to make an army of your best elite, using just the frontage (so you can use the other troops elsewhere). But if the battle takes several combat-turns, will the torn down units be rotated and fresh troops brought in? This would lead to larger armies you send. (Sorry for my bad english. Hope you understand, what I mean ;) )

3. Frontage results in the fact, that it is unwise to mix your troops, when you could send legions only, or do I get this wrong? In RL, legions needed support and help from cavalry and irregulares, but here it would be better to use the possible frontage with your strongest units, true? (besides a few exeptions).

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Jim-NC
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Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:48 pm

AS to part 2. If you have only enogh troops to fill your frontage, then you will have no one to rotate into battle. So your damaged units have to stay there getting hit more.

1. Don't think it changes for the month (but I could be wrong)
3. It would appear that you would want legions for most. Some specialists are needed (like the skirmishers who give you a boost on initative).
Remember - The beatings will continue until morale improves.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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Narwhal
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Wed Oct 03, 2012 3:29 pm

cwegsche wrote:Thanks very much for the description! Another question arised when playing yesterday:

If you put two forces with a 2star commander in a province with say two legions each, is frontage calculated within battle just for the most senior commander who takes the lead or is it divided between the two forces using max frontage for each stack?


In this case, one army only will engage for sure, the other may either not engage at all (if the first army is in offensive and the second in defensive posture), or engage with a "random roll" at the start of each turn. In any case, they use a common frontage, and which elements are taken once both engaged is random.

Cfant wrote:I have a few questions to the explanations.

1. The weather won't change during the interturn, true?

2. To block a superior enemy army, it would be wise to make an army of your best elite, using just the frontage (so you can use the other troops elsewhere). But if the battle takes several combat-turns, will the torn down units be rotated and fresh troops brought in? This would lead to larger armies you send. (Sorry for my bad english. Hope you understand, what I mean ;) )

3. Frontage results in the fact, that it is unwise to mix your troops, when you could send legions only, or do I get this wrong? In RL, legions needed support and help from cavalry and irregulares, but here it would be better to use the possible frontage with your strongest units, true? (besides a few exeptions).


1. Nope.

2. There will be a rotation of troops.

3. Depends. If you still have frontage open, the auxiliaries are going to be helpful. If you already "maximise" the frontage, depending on whether you want to do damage or hold the line, you may want to use aux. or legions.

Agesilaus
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Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:41 am

I opened my mountainpass.ter file and found the following:


{Fair}
Ranger = -3
LitFoot = -3
MedFoot = -3
HvyFoot = -3
LitHorse = -4
MedHorse = -4
HvyHorse = -4
Wheeled = -4

...
Combat_Units_Quota = 45


given that the negative numbers aren't going to add up to a positive value of 45, does that mean we get to have infinite battle size in mountain passes?

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PhilThib
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Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:40 am

In theory, the modification affects only the first battle day...mountain passes work a bit lik river crossings...will need to check that however.
Image

Cfant
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Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:37 pm

thanks for the help :)

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Philo32b
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Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:28 pm

Thank you, Narwhal for these guides! They are very useful for helping get my brain around the battle mechanics.

pakfront0
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Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:33 am

Besides digging through text files, is there a way in-game to see tell the frontage of a stack and the frontage of regions?

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Narwhal
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Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:08 am

pakfront0 wrote:Besides digging through text files, is there a way in-game to see tell the frontage of a stack and the frontage of regions?


Not really, at least until the mod files are not opened to public (when they are, everything will be in Excel format).

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