Bug: Inaccessable trade zones, despite fleets

[Kensai]

One of our players in our multiplayer game is playing Sweden. He is reporting the following possible bug in the Paradox forums.

I dont know if this is a bug I stumbled upon in our ongoing MP-game.

Normally if nation A places a trade fleet near nation B, both can buy/sell from each other, even if nation B has no trade fleets. That way in a normal SP-game, even the small nations can buy from major powers without need of own trade fleets. Which I totally understand that so far ...

In our game however I found out that me playing a minor nation (Sweden) I could buy from all big nations (USA, France, etc) which had trade fleets in one or both trade boxes (north sea and baltic) but not from minors as Chile or Argentina, or even Spain, which also had fleets there. Furthermore, other nations (major powers as well as minors) cannot buy from me if I have a fleet near them. Had a fleet near Japan and they couldnt buy from me neither.


This would however explain why AI-economies of minors fail to sustain themselves, as trading between them is like 100% harder

I was wondering why this happens and if it is in the same sphere of locked armies issues we had with certain unscripted nations.

[SonOfAGhost]

Clarification please:
Can't buy what's listed because it's greyed out or fleets are there but nothing is listed for them in the regional market for him to select?
If the former, are the other minor powers are indeed selling, not bidding?

I've run into some strange behaviours as well, just not sure if it's bugs yet or just different than my assumptions.
Example: Tea farm in Darjeeling kept shutting down due to no connection. Despite being in range of local collection point and RR to trade region capital Calcutta and having merchant ships in the sea trade box that serves both trade regions. Only potential hiccup I see is despite owning all 3 provinces, Darjeeling is in an adjacent trade region I don't own capital of. A long time horizon before I take it's trade capital though to see if that fixes it.

So definitely some unexpected trade flow behaviour, possibly directional. Do the major powers maybe have fleets at both ends and the minors only at 1 end maybe?

[sagji]

I've run into some strange behaviours as well, just not sure if it's bugs yet or just different than my assumptions.
Example: Tea farm in Darjeeling kept shutting down due to no connection. Despite being in range of local collection point and RR to trade region capital Calcutta and having merchant ships in the sea trade box that serves both trade regions. Only potential hiccup I see is despite owning all 3 provinces, Darjeeling is in an adjacent trade region I don't own capital of. A long time horizon before I take it's trade capital though to see if that fixes it.

So definitely some unexpected trade flow behaviour, possibly directional. Do the major powers maybe have fleets at both ends and the minors only at 1 end maybe?

Poor documentation / over complex rules.

To operate a structure you need two things.
i) A collection point in or adjacent to the structure.
ii) A collection point in the same trade zone as the structure.

In most cases the collection point for i) also serves for ii) - however in this case Darjeeling's collection point is in a different trade zone.

[Pocus]

That's because, and believe me it was made so to be more simple, the game first determines the status of each trade zone, before checking on every structures... So this is why (ii) exists. Try imagining PON without trade zones to simplify trade, and you'll understand why they were needed.

And (i) is very natural, because having a collection point as in (ii) in the trade zone but 1000 kms away from the production site just did not make any sense.

So it may sounds complex. It is probably. But it could have been much worse

[SonOfAGhost]

Ah, so another collection center in Darjeeling (or at least on that side of the river) should be all that's needed then. That's actually much simpler than worrying about the trade regions capital, excellent. I guess I'll have to pay more attention in future to trade region borders when placing collection points, not just range, good to know.

Thanks both for your input, but I hope the OP only got skipped here if he already got what he needed from the other site, I wasn't trying to hijack :P

[Boernes]

I'll try to explain this further, as a fix for this problem would be very nice. It is indeed as SoaG said: "major powers maybe have fleets at both ends and the minors only at 1 end"

I play sweden, and have a fleet near Japan. I can buy from them, but they cant buy from me
Argentina and Greece have a fleet near Sweden and can buy from me, but I cant buy from them
Italy and the USA have a fleet near Sweden, and buying/selling works both ways

[Generalisimo]

I'll try to explain this further, as a fix for this problem would be very nice. It is indeed as SoaG said: "major powers maybe have fleets at both ends and the minors only at 1 end"

I play sweden, and have a fleet near Japan. I can buy from them, but they cant buy from me
Argentina and Greece have a fleet near Sweden and can buy from me, but I cant buy from them
Italy and the USA have a fleet near Sweden, and buying/selling works both ways

This is not a problem, it is WAD.
You have to put your fleet near the other nation Capital Trade Area to be able to buy their goods from their National Stockpile.
This obviously had a problem, "small" nations like Uruguay, Argentina, Denmark, Sweden, Portugal, Brazil, etc (notice that I "dump" in this group a lot of nations ) will need a lot of merchant fleets to be able to buy all the things they need.
So, we created an exception... only majors have a two-way commerce... their fleets on your ports give you access to their National Stockpile too... but ONLY for majors.

So, in your example, only Japan, Italy and USA qualify for the special rule.

[Philippe]

I wonder if the special exception would really be needed if it were simply possible to build very small fleets (one or two elements only). That way small countries could afford to build multiple fleets. Of course, this would probably have other side effects I haven't considered.

[Generalisimo]

I wonder if the special exception would really be needed if it were simply possible to build very small fleets (one or two elements only). That way small countries could afford to build multiple fleets. Of course, this would probably have other side effects I haven't considered.

By design, we didn't want that to happen...

[Boernes]

Well, is there a way to manually fix that? Is this written down in some gamefile, or is it bound to the 'Major power' trait (in the F1-Screen)?




For clarification:
Major nations dont sell everything (especially not rare goods/food), and in most cases outbid in the competition for rare food/goods. Because their own huge demand, they seldomly resell those goods. So even with the two-way-commerce provided by major nations, Minor nations still need a lot of trade fleets (about 6-7) to at least have the chance of providing a steady flow of goods to keep their population happy (they need goods sold in every category to keep contentment on a steady level). The other would be to build up good relations and place the needed plantations themselves. I dont know about you, but I have not seen that happen so far, as this is almost impossible to accomplish, even for human-controlled minors.

What benefits has a small nation from an austrian trade fleet, if the austrians dont sell anything from worth?

So why not give minor nations the same trade abilities? It will at least give them (even AI) a chance to thrive, and not become crippled nations that are downed by revolting population

[Generalisimo]

We can argue a lot about it... Argentina didn't had a huge merchant fleet to be able to have the same market than France... neither it had the same merchandises available to its population... that's why, they "depend" on the other majors fleets running around their coast... and what they have around to sell.
Yes, surely it is a simplification of the system... it could have been done differently... but it this way right now and it is WAD.

Now, how can you "quickfix" this on your end?
To be able to do the same with all the other nations, you need to change their status to majors too... but be aware, there are a lot of "expensive calculations" that are done only on majors (like AI calculations), so, be aware that turn processing will increase when you start adding majors to the game.

[SonOfAGhost]

If they're doing it only for player controlled minors AI won't be an issue

I certainly understand wanting players to have equality of opportunity in such a game. Sounds like a lot of fun, I wish my schedule was predictable enough to do that kind of thing again. Fond memories of an old PBEM called VGA Planets that came on 3x 3.5" floppy disks.

"Expensive calculations" sounds ominous. Are you suggesting that, AI aside, it may create more problems for the players of the minors than the trade problem it would fix? I would guess that minors have lower structure/unit costs to compensate for their much smaller economies (and lower max numbers of each as well). Is he looking at saving 20 years to recruit a single brigade?

[Pocus]

Stars! beats VGA planet anytime!

[yellow ribbon]

off topic:

Stars! beats VGA planet anytime!

OMG!, are we all that old in the forum????

Empire Interactive, or: when gamers get older than their favored company

BTW: they needed 5 years to bring STARS! from 2.0 to 2.7, didnt they...

[Boernes]

We can argue a lot about it... Argentina didn't had a huge merchant fleet to be able to have the same market than France... neither it had the same merchandises available to its population... that's why, they "depend" on the other majors fleets running around their coast... and what they have around to sell. Yes, surely it is a simplification of the system... it could have been done differently... but it this way right now and it is WAD.

Well, you're right that e.g. Argentina didnt have large merchant fleets (Mexico ingame has none at all and even cant build one). But if you cut it down to numbers and, say, the US and Argentina only have the same fleet at hand (1), what difference is there between? In the end they both transport goods back and forth. The game however implies that argentinian ships can only transport goods one way (buying), but somehow dont know how to load their ships with goods on their way. Btw, Spain and the Netherlands had considerable Merchant Fleets. Ingame they are minor nations (which is totally fine), but it renders the Minor Nation - Minor Trade Fleet Argument more or less invalid.


PS: sorry to bug you with this, but I honestly cant see any negative consequenses of giving every nation two-way-fleets

Now, how can you "quickfix" this on your end?
To be able to do the same with all the other nations, you need to change their status to majors too... but be aware, there are a lot of "expensive calculations" that are done only on majors (like AI calculations), so, be aware that turn processing will increase when you start adding majors to the game.

What differences in game mechanics are there between major and minor nations - what does the 'Major Power' trait affect? AI calculations are no issue here as its a MP game and would only be done for human players