Banks vs Soundoff discussion thread

[bburns9]

Well, the only thing I don't know is what kind of force Soundoff has at Amherst currently with Stoneman. That aside, the #'s look to be as follows:

CSA Assualt Force
Jackson 19,900 men 82 cannon (Defend at all costs) arrive day 11 Forced March
Longstreet 14,000 men 85 cannon (Defend at all costs) arrive day 12
Johnson 30,500 men 115 cannon (Assault at all costs) arrive day 12

Total: 64,400 men 282 cannon.

Union Defenses:
Stoneman (at Amherst, unknown)
Franklin 30,000 men 181 cannon (Defend - Coordinated Move w/Hamilton)
Hamilton 26,500 men 147 cannon (Defend - Coordinated Move w/ Franklin)

Total: 56,500 men 328 cannon

This is basically a coin toss. I wonder if the delayed combat feature Banks and Soundoff are using will come into play here. Further, if Banks' forces experience any kind of delay in marching, they could be in some trouble. A big blow to Banks' combat effective troops and this theatre (and likely the war) are a lost cause. Sure he still has the draft in his pocket, but it'll be two months before those forces are able to be brought to the front. Soundoff will have another corps in DC by mid-February.

[Jim-NC]

Big gambles either give big rewards or big busts. It all comes down to how the units move and what order they arrive at Amherst. It could go either way.

[slimey.rock]

Do we know when Franklin and Hamilton will arrive?

[Topeka]

Do we know when Franklin and Hamilton will arrive?

Day 12, according to Banks' estimation. One day after Stonewall and RE Lee get there and the same day as the rest of the CSA corps arrive.

But my question is how much supply does the depot at Burkeville have in it right now? If Amherst is captured, then most of the Union army will only have Burkeville to draw on. But if Burkeville has a lot of supply in it (probably not true, as it is the middle of winter) then Grant will have enough supply to allow his armies to create all sorts of headaches for Banks.

[PascalB]

This is a real nice AAR to follow!
I think Banks is like Lee after the first day of Gettysburg.
His violent attack at Petersburg gave him the initiative and stroke hard Soundoff's battle plans. But after the first surprise round, Banks had no true victory. So he had the choice
1) evade southward (coz Soundoff'll surely go north to re-create a true frontline) and wait for another opportunity
2) continue the fight and force a real battle where he think to destroy mass union troops and gain a strategical aim that 'll force Soundoff to lose all the efforts of 1862.

I like his offensive gameplay! Soundoff was really perturbed with such an offensive move.

For the upcoming turn, I see a great battle in Amherst with a little and costly confederate victory. But, it's my opinion, Banks'll lose many of good troops in Amherst and 'll lose initiative for the whole year. He'll have to reestablish a good defensive line far away from Richmond really quickly and evade all battles before this.

[slimey.rock]

But my question is how much supply does the depot at Burkeville have in it right now? If Amherst is captured, then most of the Union army will only have Burkeville to draw on. But if Burkeville has a lot of supply in it (probably not true, as it is the middle of winter) then Grant will have enough supply to allow his armies to create all sorts of headaches for Banks.

This is very true. We never heard a word about what happened to Dix's supply trouble. My guess is Soundoff will have enough supply to operate 'till he can get his supply line restored.

Banks is going to have a similar problem. He may have lots of supply wagons with him, but his nearest depot is exposed in Garysburg and the weather could turn bad any day now.

[dublish]

I have no idea what happened to Banks' plan. Of the 3 corps (+Lee) Banks expected to be holding Amherst by now, all he's got is Jackson's wrecked corps, with Johnston hovering off to the south, maybe stuck in the snow and sure to suffer in the winter weather. Did Lee and Longstreet simply not move? The only people who did what they were supposed to were Johnson, Jackson and Stuart.

It doesn't seem like Banks' ploy with Magruder worked as well as he hoped- soundoff estimates 15000 men, which isn't much bigger than the ~10000 he actually has, considering Grant, Dix, Berry and McDowell are sitting next door with 60000 (tired) troops.

With Kearny and Crittenden strolling around North Carolina (great time to bring up the Wilmington, Goldsboro and New Bern garrisons, Banks! :thumbsup , Banks will have little choice but to pull back.

Banks needs to force something soon. soundoff has noticed the lack of a Confederate draft, and will soon have Whipple's new corps available to fight, compounding the loss of Jackson's corps.

Besides running away, all I can think of is a mass attack with Lee, Longstreet, Johnston and Johnson against Grant, Dix, Berry and McDowell. Johnston's going to take a beating from the weather, but Grant Dix and McDowell are low on cohesion according to soundoff. Attacking Grant is with approximately equal numbers is likely the last thing Banks wants to do, but that's all I can think of besides a retreat back to North Carolina...

EDIT: It seems soundoff has enough supply in Burkeville for two turns, and that's it. soundoff should be stuck in Virginia for a few months at least.

[gchristie]

When Banks' and Soundoff's contest is over, I'm sure we all will have lot's of questions for them. Here are three that I have:

1. Why doesn't Soundoff repair broken rails? He's got enough manpower and war supply to spare, I assume. It really hurts his ability to rapidly counter Banks' thrusts in VA. Curious.

2. Why doesn't Soundoff use his cavalry to disrupt Banks' rail lines? Manstien used this strategy to devastating effect v. Runyan in their contest. Maybe Soundoff sees it as too gamey? Banks has done it to good effect.

3. Bluewater navy seems largely ignored. I know Soundoff had his reasons for not utilizing the navy in order to establish more game balance, but he seemed to have changed his mind in 1862, yet neither refers to it still. Likewise, Banks does not refer to blockade runners.

[It's a Trap]

I was just going over Soundsoff orders and he plans on Grant moving to Hillsboro, but won't the MC generated by the Raleigh fort stop him there? And why cant banks see whats left of milroy? I would think that a crops would have a hard time hiding.

[Jim-NC]

He might, or he might not. If there are 2 stacks in the region, the 2 opponents could see different leaders on top. The hide value of the corps would be against the detect value of the CSA boys. Milroy's corps may show up as unit with leader (due to a high hide value), while the other unit has a lower hide value, and is completely visible to the CSA. For the union, Milroy is on top and so visible.

[cobraII]

I was just going over Soundsoff orders and he plans on Grant moving to Hillsboro, but won't the MC generated by the Raleigh fort stop him there? And why cant banks see whats left of milroy? I would think that a crops would have a hard time hiding.

Soundoff is moving Grant to Raleigh along with Wipples corps to besiege the town and resupply Grant since Wipples has extra wagons. Grant is not moving on to Hillsboro.

[acme]

these two fellas are really own!
One of the best multiplayer game i ever seen.
I wonder if jackson can get home. prolly not :/

[WhoCares]

Picking up the discussion started in Soundoffs thread (I think this one is more appropriate for this discussion), I agree with cobraII that Banks did not play too agressive.
The positive effect of his continuous aggressions can also be seen in Soundoff plans for his next turn, with two corps (Hamilton and Buell) bound to protect against such aggressions.

There is another 'issue' with Soundoffs last report (and which I wouldn't want to post in Soundoff thread): I think he is wrong with his assessment of initial confederate forces in the first battle. Not with the actual strength but he thought that GW Smith' Corps has been reinforced by a third division - I think he forgot to account for the Fort Pickett Garrison, also indicated by the 17 units (=1 division) inside the fort (see middle symbol on the bottom right of the battle screen).

Last but not least I am glad that he 'finally' repairs and covers his rail lines - when I think of the situation in late 1862/earlier 1863, the broken lines seriously hampered movement and endangered supply flow but for whatever reason he didn't fix them right away...

[MrT]

indeed, but I would also say that Banks when he went foward, often risked anhiliation for his troops, he was lucky that Soundoff couldnt cut him off when he went rampaging in VA early in '63.
Soundoff is just grinding it out, in a beautiful controlled manner, he did a beautiful job at the start of the game, by not giving Banks time to get settled in VA but instead pushing and poking everywere.

[WhoCares]

Yepp, Banks risked a lot in his last 'campaign', but he also won a lot of time by it. And usually that's how you 'win' time, by trading ground or resources. The way it went he certainly got cheap of...

One thing that got lost along with the first edition of my previous post is the fact that the South is almost forced to play aggressive - by not doing so it would ignore its primary advantage, the good (mostly offensive) stats of its generals.
Soundoffs early campaign in the east down from WV was indeed beautiful, as it got Banks pretty much off guard and very early took the initiative away from the South - something unusual that early in the game. One might say he had some luck with the activation of his generals but I think few would have ventured so far forward that early with the same forces and generals at hand. I guess I wouldn't...
On the other hand it also played somewhat in the hands of Banks aggressive style as it resulted in long fronts which offered quite some opportunities for his deep raids.

Easier said than done, but as the Union I would have tried everthing to try and force battle(s) with the retreating Johnson - and be it by throwing worn out Corps together to get even a limited fighting strength. All he needed was to get one or more battles of the kind he managed to get in this last turn - even if the engagements are lost by 2:1, if he can wear him down and inflict considerable losses I'd consider it a success.

[Jim-NC]

Soundoff has been very conserative, but that is due in no small part to Banks aggressiveness. I personally think that Soundoff should be pushing harder with his TN troops under Meade. He has not had a major battle in that area for months. He doesn't like the terrain, and I can respect that, but allowing Banks to dig in for 3 months (so his entrenchments are 6+) is not the way to force a war. So by now, he can't get Banks out of his positions.

Banks use of Forts has been a serious blow to Soundoff's offensive ambitions. I don't think anyone had any real ideas about how effective they could become (look at the fight at Wilmington). Now that Banks has built 4 or 5, they have become severe impediments to Soundoff (I don't think Soundoff will do anything with the Raleigh - Wilmington line until he flanks it).

Don't get me wrong, Soundoff is doing a great job (vis a vis history), but at times he has been a tad cautious. He could have forced Atlanta this year if he had attacked with Meade and Hooker at the same time, not allowing the Rebs to rest or dig in really deep.

[Jim-NC]

Banks has been aggressive, but his use of Forts was a inspired game changing decision. It completely altered the dynamics of the game.

He has lost a lot of gambles during this game weakening his position a lot (like the fight at Annapolis - Or Jackson at Manassas). If some of those battles had gone his way, what a different game - imagine if he had been able to cut off Washington by taking Annapolis. Or if Jackson could have gotten resupply, and gone on a tear into Maryland or Pennsylvania. The overall effect is that he is fighting in NC in 1863 without Richmond, and has lost most of Alabama/Mississipi (not that I could have done much better).

Both players have taught me a lot about the game, and how it works. My hat is off to both of them for many reasons (not the least is they have continued the game and the AAR for a long time - even when burned out)

[WhoCares]

Another thing I actually wonder is how many Armies Soundoff has in the field - Grant in the East with something like 7 or 8 Corps, Meade in Tennessee with maybe 5 or 6 Corps and I think that's about it - is there an Army command (e.g. Butler) down south??? Little Macs Corps down near New Orleans should already be far outside the command support from Meade.
I think it might make sense to split of and be it just two Corps (Mac + another one) to form another Army at least in the West. Especially if he does not plan to attack heads-on in Ten. he might use another Army to command the move down the Mississippi
If there isn't he also should have an Army command down on the coast to command an eventual attack on Atlanta.
Doesn't he have enough able 3-stars by now (though it might cost to ignore senority...)?!

[MrT]

Yep totally agree whocares.
Also i would like to see soundoff form a new army, with the next draft, and just arrive in SC, behind were banks has his lines in NC, thus cutting of banks supply and avoiding the need to take the fort... + it outflanks banks mountain defences in TN and offers a drive to Atlanta option.
Withdrawing units from TN also works if he wants to bring some experiance to the sc offensive?

[gchristie]

Why are some AAR posts so wide they scroll off the right side of the screen, and others fit completely on the screen? Banks' fits the former, Soundoff's the latter. Makes it hard to read when they are too wide.

[slimey.rock]

I think Soundoff is doing the right thing in Tennesee. I have made the mistake of underestimating the power of mountain terrain before (especially with large engagements) and now that Bank's is entrenched it is simply out of the question. There is simply no way that Banks can stay in the mountains over winter. Soundoff's move to destroy the Augusta depot was brilliant. That was probably the most important depot for the South at the time and now Banks will have a hell of a time feeding his men at Atlanta and Carolina unless he replaces it quickly.

The way I see it, Soundoff is forcing Banks to retreat from the mountains over winter or face starvation. Then, come sping, Soundoff will take the mountains and overwhelm the defenders in more favorable terrain.



@gchristie - Whenever there's a picture that's really large, it forces the post to become wider and thus the text follows the width of the post.

[dublish]

Why are some AAR posts so wide they scroll off the right side of the screen, and others fit completely on the screen? Banks' fits the former, Soundoff's the latter. Makes it hard to read when they are too wide.

Banks doesn't crop/edit his images to fit medium screens (i.e. up to 1600x900). I've got a 1650x1080 rig, and still occasionally get problems with the picture width.

[MrT]

Yep, thats annoying with the images, but i have found that using ctrl and - button together (ie hold control, and press minus) lets me zoom out in my browser and veiw the full image (personally i can read the whole thing zoomed out, only need too zoom out one press or so), then do the same with ctrl and + to zoom back to your normal browser resolution.

[gchristie]

And especially to you, MrT. Now, where are my reading glasses

[MrT]

No problem bud. I know how annoyed I was before I ''discovered'' it.

[Spharv2]

You can also use CTRL and the mouse scroll wheel to resize the page.

[soundoff]

I discovered early on how soul destroying it was to not crop the pictures to fit the available size...thus I always do it now....makes it so easier for the reading. As for the other points many of you make I'll address them later. It really is refreshing how we each come at the game from different angles.


Now as a starter. I always thought I'd the campaign won when Banks threw Johnson and Jackson at me in 61 and by good luck I managed to destroy two Confederate divisions almost without loss. Go back and check it out.

Personally I always thought that it was too early and too large a blow for the Confederacy to withstand.

Now thats not to say I was right of course...just my opinion

Kindest regards

Mick

[slimey.rock]

Soundoff, I think your execution of the game as the North was perfect. Slow steady pressure along all fronts along with a few naval invasions to get at the soft underbelly of the South. You definitely had the South on the edge of a knife at the end.

Banks played a very good game and I think both of your styles of play compliment each other nicely. But in the end, Banks took a lot of risks and payed dearly for them. That's not to say they were bad decisions, but they don't call them risks for nothing.

My greatest thanks to both of you players. It is a shame to see the beautiful AAR's finish, but I understand that it is time for them to end. I'm glad that there are several new AAR's coming out to fill the void

[soundoff]

Ok good people

Now a few ideas. They are not unique or original nor are they necessarily correct but they are MY ideas for newer players.....playing as the Union in PBEM mode.

1. And most important...never leave Washington poorly defended. Its too darned easy to think that you have the ascendancy as the North and strip all of your major cities of troops to feed the front line. DO NOT DO IT. Just look at Benway against Manstein in the Tournament to see how it turns out. Manstein was extremely lucky as I'm sure he'd be the first to admit. It was not good play on his part ....just that Benway got too confident

2. Never go for the jugular in 61 or 62 but take Richmond in 62.... Use your strength. It sure as heck is not commanders so frontal assaults are bye enlarge out....its down to outflanking with superior numbers. Remember though that those Confederate commanders are devastating (particularly Stonewall with his fast mover trait) so keep keep locations well defended. If that slows you down...well better slow than dead. Remember the object is to win....no extra points for winning in double quick time.

[Banks6060]

I'll pitch in here...and add agreement to Soundoff's original post.

I knew I had this game lost from the very beginning after Annapolis. As many of you noted...most players probably would have thrown in the towel right there...in fact I thought of doing it myself and starting from scratch. But the competitor in me wouldn't allow it.

I wanted to see how well I could do with such an early disadvantage.

In my own mind...I think I fared relatively well. In fact much of my aggresiveness was a direct result of that initial disaster. I KNEW I was against the ropes directly after that happened...that all my efforts would need to be in slowing Soundoff down. What better way to do that than keep throwing haymakers his way (Amherst, Appomatox, The Valley...even 2nd Columbus and Forrest's Raid into Kentucky) and hope that enough aggression will simply cause him to pause a little and consider the defense of his own supply line.

Now...I'll admit...I'm just an aggresive player by nature....and lend myself to taking risks. But it's all about initiative. Since Soundoff had the numbers right from the jump....I NEEDED to have him reacting to ME...instead of the other way around. Had I simply sat back in defensive positions...waiting for the onslaught...I'd likely have lost the game sometime in 1862.