Banks vs Soundoff discussion thread

[MVDH]

Is anyone else still chuckling over the historically disastrous attempt to combine Van Dorn and McCulloch in Arkansas?

@MDVH: The quote is actually something along the lines of: "I propose to fight it out on this line if it takes all summer." Which is kind of amusing, since it took a fall, winter and spring after that, and he didn't even fight it out on that line (Spotsylvania, IIRC). But I agree- that's the kind of battle Banks can't afford to fight, and I was surprised to see him mention it as a strategic victory when all it did was open the door to Fredericksburg as wide as it could possibly get.

Methinks my quotation ability needs some work............

Mark

[Jim-NC]

Banks has lost a gamble again. He attacked Ft. Pickens and lost. That cost him quite a bit of troops. It looks like Soundoff has Banks "dancing" to his tune (what with Hooker in the middle of Mississippi with some troops).
Soundoff appears to be trying to cut Bory off, and strave him at Pickens. It will be interesting to see what Banks does to save Bory.

[xpyre]

I think that may well be that.

The Lee attack was probably all Banks could do but he couldn't carry the day... I think that it will be a surprise if Banks carries on... I can't see how he can stop Richmond falling and with it his entire Eastern front.

It has been very entertaining though.

[ncuman]

I think that may well be that.

The Lee attack was probably all Banks could do but he couldn't carry the day... I think that it will be a surprise if Banks carries on... I can't see how he can stop Richmond falling and with it his entire Eastern front.

It has been very entertaining though.

Not necessarily. Banks hasn't posted his moves yet, but I could see him splitting his forces between Petersburg and Richmond and turning the war into brutal trench warfare. That may be enough to keep the CSA alive until winter at least. But you are right that things are looking pretty grim for Banks right now.

[MVDH]

Lee's attack at Grant's Amherst depot seems to have failed because McDowell MTG. However, I think it was an excellent bold stroke and had it succeeded Banks could have stalled the entire Union Virginia offensive. Now it seems Banks faces an extremely tough situation but as long as he holds both Richmond and Petersburg he is still in the game. The estimated (by Soundoff) of forces is CSA 60,000 + and USA around 110,000 means Banks has enough forces to continue to conduct a strategic defense.

Overall though I am a bit mystified by Banks' overall strategy. He seems to have launched as many if not more, major attacks than Soundoff has. Given the relative defensive advantages of higher defensive fire values and the advantage of being dugin it would seem that Banks has been a little too aggressive at times and his significantly higher casualties (that of course the South can't afford in the long run) bears this out.

Mark

[gchristie]

I do wonder how this game would have played out if they had adopted more historical mobilization houses rules - limiting CSA mobilization until April 1862 and limiting USA mobilization till March 1863? It seems to me that the balance is too much in the north's favor otherwise, if the union player is competent.

Is it possible for players to pbem using Clovis' mod?

Anyway, both Soundoff and Banks each deserve one of Aphrodite Mae's medals for entertaining us, playing honorably, and helping many of us gain a deeper understanding of the game. I've enjoyed their AAR very much.

[Clovis]

I do wonder how this game would have played out if they had adopted more historical mobilization houses rules - limiting CSA mobilization until April 1862 and limiting USA mobilization till March 1863? It seems to me that the balance is too much in the north's favor otherwise, if the union player is competent.

Is it possible for players to pbem using Clovis' mod?

Anyway, both Soundoff and Banks each deserve one of Aphrodite Mae's medals for entertaining us, playing honorably, and helping many of us gain a deeper understanding of the game. I've enjoyed their AAR very much.

To be more accurate both sides may use conscription from 1862. The trick is CSA will get more men than federals for the same cost which is huge in NM.

The rational for this design choice is to keep a balance between historicity and plausible alternatives. If US has lost at Antietiam the conscription could have been considered necessary before 1863. But the political cost is more important than in vanilla version, for both sides. Simply the South hasn't the choice to go without conscription.

[MVDH]

I do wonder how this game would have played out if they had adopted more historical mobilization houses rules - limiting CSA mobilization until April 1862 and limiting USA mobilization till March 1863? It seems to me that the balance is too much in the north's favor otherwise, if the union player is competent.

Is it possible for players to pbem using Clovis' mod?

Anyway, both Soundoff and Banks each deserve one of Aphrodite Mae's medals for entertaining us, playing honorably, and helping many of us gain a deeper understanding of the game. I've enjoyed their AAR very much.

gchristie and I are using this house rule in our PBEM game and it seems to be working well so far. Though it also sounds like clovis' mod works well too.

And I heartily second kudos to both Soundoff and Banks for their wonderfully entertaining and informative AAR. Thanks to both.

Mark

[Jim-NC]

Part of Banks problems this game is his luck (or perhaps his not listening to himself). He has said that most of his attacks are gambles (the AOT attack was a large gamble debated by himself). He has recognized that his is taking huge risks (maybe too large), but feels justified to try to win. Soundoff on the other hand has been mostly cautious in his attacks (and lucky in his defences). I hope Banks last at least another year, but I think Richmond is doomed. He is doing very well in the western theater (Soundoff's ahistorical moves of Grant and Sherman to the east helped alot). Soundoff has not done anything in Tennessee.

[Injun]

I have read and follwed this ARR from both side for the past couple of weeks. I can only say it is great. Jim-NC, Soundoff is suffering bad activation rolls in the Tenn and Kentucky areas and that is hampering any offencive operations.

[Jim-NC]

I have read and follwed this ARR from both side for the past couple of weeks. I can only say it is great. Jim-NC, Soundoff is suffering bad activation rolls in the Tenn and Kentucky areas and that is hampering any offencive operations.

Even with bad activation rolls, he could still attempt to move forward (at a large movement penalty). Or try some flanking moves. The big problem there is Mac. He ruins his corps commanders.

This problem is shown with regards to Hooker's Division. If Soundoff had moved on Island #10, and taken it (even with inactive commanders he could have placed it in siege - and used a fleet to blockade), then he probably could have moved some ships down and resupplied Hooker. I say probably as he would have had to still run the Memphis guns. But the way would have been much shorter to supply Hooker (and mayhap allow him to keep Vicksburg). Not saying he would still do that, but he would have different options if he could supply Hooker.

[slimey.rock]

Yeah, I don't like the idea of giving up Vicksburg like that. Well at least he was finally able to promote Hooker.

On another note, I don't think Soundoff realizes how lucky he was to gain Petersburg without much of a fight. Obviously now Banks will either have to retake Petersburg, retreat or face the starvation of his army in Richmond...

I think it's in Banks' favor if Soundoff tries his all out attack on Richmond next turn. A sound victory for Banks against Grant will certainly open up some doors.

[biggp07]

Yep, I agree. I want to believe that Banks can still be successful with Lee and the other generals in this theater. i believe he can if he plays correct on every move. Its the knowing what that move is, that I think he is capable of knowing, but I on the other hand would have felt imminate defeat and probably packed it in! I just love this game!!!

[orca]

I'm a little puzzled why Banks hasn't launched a serious offensive north eastward from Knoxville. For about three turns he has been in serious trouble in Virginia, and in a pretty solid position in the West. Surely he could spare a couple of divisions to try to hit the Union's rear in Virginia?

[Jim-NC]

I'm a little puzzled why Banks hasn't launched a serious offensive north eastward from Knoxville. For about three turns he has been in serious trouble in Virginia, and in a pretty solid position in the West. Surely he could spare a couple of divisions to try to hit the Union's rear in Virginia?

He is afraid of weakening the west too much. If he moves the AOT out of Tennessee (he needs to move the whole army to help in VA, not just a corps), then even with Mac, Soundoff will be able to close off the Mississippi and cut the CSA in two. Anything less than the entire AOT will not make much of a difference (Soundoff does not have 2:1 yet, but is very close in VA). Also Banks must do something to Hooker, so he will have to move some of the AOT to recapture Vicksburg.

The only reason he has any army in TN/KY, is that Mac has made the TN/KY union forces dead (no corps has a strategic rating higher than 1 maybe 2 on a good week). They haven't done anything for turns. If they become active, then Soundoff will move to crush/encircle the AOT. Banks can not afford to just give up the entire western theater.

[Big Ideas]

Next turn Meade, Reynolds, and Doubleday arrive and will probably head straight for mid-Kentucky area and add much some much needed energy to the Federal leadership in that area. Without Lyons in the game- the US has to struggle somewhere because of poor leadership. A couple of promotions will change all that. That war can change very quickly from now on as a long list of good leaders that can promote to two stars begins to arrive.

But unless Jackson transfers to Kentucky the CSA doesn't get any new talent as three star leaders. The CSA are forced to rely on Beauregard, AS Johnston, JE Johnston for too long. The Confederates still have good two star leaders coming in so they can improve their corps leadership.

BI

[Comtedemeighan]

Sounds like Banks may have saved the Army of Northern Virginia in his latest post. I'm rooting for the CSA

[tc237]

Wow, I stayed up to near 3am the other night reading this AAR, then finished it yesterday in a nervous sweat.

Can I get a link to the "Supply thread"?

[Jim-NC]

Would you look at that, Soundoff was able to take Island #10 with an inactive general. Inactive generals apparently are no impediment to progress. Halleck being active 2 of the last 3 turns helps Soundoff's picture a lot. It will be interesting to see what Soundoff does with active commanders in KY/TN.

[tc237]

Halleck? ech, he's just trying to get promoted

Can someone kindly direct me to the "supply thread"?

[jokeon]

It might be:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=6221

[tc237]

It might be:
http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=6221

I don't think that is it, but then again I don't know which thread it is
In the meantime I've been testing out different methods to get supply into coastal areas as the Union.

[Clovis]

just a side note: is someone having an acconut on the Waragmer forum could post links to this AAR? It's the best piece of ad we have for AACW currently.

[Topeka]

I'm very excited to see what happens next. It looks like Grant may be placed way out of poition, down in North Carolina, with R.E. Lee between him and the rest of his army.

But my question is what will happen next? Will Banks, after spanking the Grant-less armies around Petersburg, whip around and strike towards Grant while the northern Union Corps lick their wounds? Or will he keep striking towards Richmond and ignore Grant's army that is well within strking distance of Garysburg and the South's supply line?

The next couple of turns should be VERY interesting.

[WhoCares]

Possible that we see the end of it, if Franklin reaches Burkeville in time - half the way he can rail, so he should do it.
That would be up to ~60k for the Union vs. ~60k CSA troops.
As Banks planned to split his attack, it will look more like this

• Jacksons 20k vs. Whipple 14k + Franklin 23k and
• Johnson 28k + Johnston 13k (+Lee) vs. Hamilton ~23k

So Jackson might get repulsed quickly and if he arrived early due to his fast-mover trait, Whipple and Franklin might even react to the attack against Hamilton. If that happens and Hamilton manages to hold until they arrive... If Lee then does not get out quickly he might get badly mauled. And then with Grant in his rear, there might be no way for an orderly retreat.

But with so many if's I should have saved my breath, waited, and watch the show

[dublish]

Am I the only one who's shocked at Banks' ability to consistently confuse Johnson with Johnston? I don't think he's gotten any of the four Johnson/Johnston leaders right for his entire AAR.

From soundoff's post, it doesn't sound like Franklin will be able to help anything, even if he's railed eastward. Whipple and Hamilton are going to get smacked around a fair bit, I think, but that still leaves Crittenden, Dix (assuming the supply situation gets worked out), Franklin, McDowell and Berry, totalling about 112k men, plus the smaller forces under Rousseau, Doubleday, etc. farther north. If soundoff can concentrate even half of that in Richmond, Banks' offensive will be stopped. soundoff also used his draft this turn, while Banks didn't- that should also give soundoff a nice advantage for a turn or two in the near future.

[Jim-NC]

Finally, Banks has won a gamble, and Soundoff has lost one. Soundoff is in trouble in the East. It will be interesting to see what he does to rescue Grant. He may well lose a lot of army trying to stabilize his line. We'll see if he can keep Richmond (he's already lost Petersburg). He maybe able to surround Banks in/around the Richmond/Petersburg area (like in the fall).

[ncuman]

Comparing Soundoff and Bank's AAR's it looks like there is about to be a big battle at Amherst. Anybody have thoughts on who the likely winner will be? If I had to guess I would say that Soundoff should win, but I am not entirely certain. It sure will be interesting to find out to see how Bank's bold gamble works out.

[Johnny Canuck]

The battle at Amherst looks like a toss-up - I don't think Hamilton & Franklin are being force-marched, so Jackson should arrive first, but Bank's forces will be fighting the relatively well-rested Hamilton & Franklin instead of the weary Grant that he was expecting. Still, the plan is IMHO the right one for Banks, as he was right to see that capturing Richmond would not help in the long term if he did not also disrupt the Union supply lines.

[slimey.rock]

I'm not sure who will win. Banks expects soundoff to send the exausted corps of McDowell and Dix, but Soundoff is actually sending Franklin and Hamilton's corps who I think are in good fighting shape. As far as manpower goes, they are even, but obviously Soundoff will have the defensive advantage. Hopefully for Banks, Hamilton will retreat without a fight again.