[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[coolbean]

When you come back to Baltimore, we're gonna be flying the Japanese banner!

Oh no I hope not.

Sir Garnet has been kind enough to take time out of his busy schedule and perhaps do a turn this weekend. I didn't have enough time to e-mail him back before the turn in time for today.

[Sir Garnet]

The wrong structure in a region that does not have that resource will probably mean empty pool, ie 0 production, I guess. If a player controls this structure he should disband it and build the appropriate where the resource exists. If it is AI, we should probably help it by scripting the correct structure.

I don't think so. The scripted structure overrides the lack of resource icon - the usual "fully utilized" 90% resource availability negative modifier applies. This is Latin America, remember: jury-rig economies and armed forces just enough to work as a backdrop in SP and put in development time for much more important things in the Old World. It's amazing how much of a game there is here with just the few, the brave, working on it.

What someone with two levels of scripting skill above me could do is research a script to put in the right resource icons and get that incorporated in the scenario files as well.

South America should be getting ready for the 1879 events... if the scripted events are not adequate, we could add objectives and give CBs for the parties interested.

There are lots of border dispute CBs left over from the Wars of Independence. I studied the Paraguayan War (War of the Triple Alliance) in detail. The biggest war in South America, and very interesting and dramatic for its own sake, but not easy to model with the AI so to save time the scenario design simply set initial borders in 1850 to reflect the 1870 outcome. The Pacific War is set up, however, and Brazil should have a CB to reclaim Banda Oriental (called Uruguay by the locals), which it would be inclined to do if they can't get their perfectly viable economy in order and get back to work.


[color="#FF0000"][color="#800000"]Important naval and land unit question: How do you find out how much maintenance in money etc. each element/unit costs?[/color][/color]

Sir Garnet, was looking at the Early July 1878 turn. Strange things happening here. Are you aware that you have an extreme naval force pool for powerful ships? I have counted the availability of 23 Ironclad Battleships and 16 Steel Warships!! I dunno about the other nations, but these quotas are beyond reality and must be rectified ASAP. The fact that Brazil can build steel warships before many other nations could be normal, after all it depends much on random inventions and technologies that are gained if a nation is relatively friendly, but the quotas worry me.

Brazil tries to be friendly with everyone except those standoffish countries but also invested a lot in technology until recently and was ranked from 3rd to 7th in tech for a while - don't want to invest in radical revolutionary techs naturally. As I noted in an earlier post, the ability to build IC Corvettes went away when Light Cruisers became buildable, while IC Battleships continue buildable after Steel Battleships (1875-1895) are buildbable. There may be an overall logic to it. At least Brazil does not have to worry about futuristic designs - so long as it does not start losing ship elements, at least.

I'm very interested to see all the force pool numbers for different countries. Was creating a force pool test script just cut and pasting ship identification columns from the database? Were you able to generate that report by script?

From the force pool comparables numbers when setting Brazil pools, the design concept across the board seems to be light on light and medium warships and heavy on heavy warships - maybe to allow players to bankrupt themselves with the expense, or maybe because the light and medium don't belong in a main force fight with this combat engine. It would be worth asking the philosophy.

Please everyone load your latest turn, go to the recruit ships interface/filter, and write here what type of ships you can build and in what quantities (availability, not ships on map).

1. What point to availability without also knowing ships on map so you can add them together?

2. Wouldn't the force pool script provide more useful answers?

Although in checking your totals I find that the game reports 0 IC BB Sqns on map while in fact I have 6 of themm 0 IC Frigates while I have 6, and 5 Scouting Sqns (mix of corvettes and light cruisers) which is accurate since I have 5. It is interesting that the IC totals are off while the next generation reports are accurate. This does not worry me because my naval plan did not extend to the maxima anyway. I have not checked merchants and transports since there is a mix of ancient through modern. Anyone else have inconsistency?

For analysis this will all need to be copied over into Excel tables for force pools anyway (Excel is something I can work with readily) so I can help with that if the task is clear.

PS. If no one is playing Egypt or willing to do negotiations for it I am willing to take it. Anyone willing please say so here in the next 24 hours.

Although in-game I have strong idealistic views on the internationality of the canal, I lost track of the status of negotiations with Egypt other than that it involves waiting for the mountain to come to Mohammed. Even more so than China, a situation where the locals generally could credibly be unrealistic and unreasonable in Western views for decades, although the Khedive was fairly shrewd. I am confident you will role play that well in negotiations.

[Kensai]

Sir Garnet, I suspect the custom script we ran for the Brazilian force pools gave an oversized battleship pool. Your technologies alone (at this stage) cannot account alone for that huge availability. I believe you have a bigger BB pool than GBR. Try to remember what script you submitted we need to pass it again on the reverse. In the meantime stop building new BBs, they might be above your quotas.

This is the reason I hate it when we meddle with structure and force pools manually. The BRZ naval force pool was already enormous by the time you submitted it, I warned against but again wasn't heard, now with the techs it's too big.

We should run this in reverse:

Code: Select all

SelectRegion = $Rio de Janeiro
StartEvent = Brazil Naval Fix (1878)|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Rio de Janeiro|NULL

Actions
SelectFaction = $BRZ
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_War2;-6
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Frg2;-10
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Rec3;-3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Tra2;-4

EndEvent

Damn, I had even warned you all about it in the past...

--

Regarding Egypt, there is no player. Since no one wants, I will chaperon it to do the negotiations. Essentially here is the plan:

- make peace, pay reparations to Germany according to warscore (for max 10 years)
- Suez canal structure goes to Germany
- ask for a couple of loans and some old ships to rebuild navy/army
- set it to AI in 2 years time

[Citizen X]

Ottoman Empire:
As there is hardly a ship on the map, this is a long list

scouting: ironclad corvettes (20 gun mlr 1860 - 1875) 9sq
river transport: river transport sail 3sq
warship: ironclad battleship (60 gun mlr 1850 - 1875) 14 sq
frigate: ironclad frigate (30 gun mlr 1860 - 1875) 12sq
transport: steam transport (1850-1885) 25sq
mrechant ships (clipper): commerce clipper (...) 7sq
river sqadron: ironclad gunboat (1860 - 1885) 8sq
merchant ships (steamer): commerce steamer (1850 - small) 18sq
merchant ships (steamer): commerce steamer (1870 - large) 10sq
scouting: ironclad corvette (20 gun mlr 1860 - 1875) 7sq


What puzzles me a bit is that there are three versions of commerce vessels, absolutly distingiushable by picture and chits. But for the other vessels this is not true. Older versions of frigates and battleships don't show. For the scoutings, there are two models, where the stats are identical, chits are identical but picture isn't and building time (etc) and combat strength are also different.
Also puzzling is that there are three severely malmed sqadrons of battleships are on the map. The one's with ironclads in them show everything correct, stats, chits, etc as do the one's with only wooden battleships in them. However the formers picture on the map show's a dreadnought.

------

Ottoman navy had 5 percent of its potential on the map when war broke out (and about 10% of its army actually fielded). Just saying.

[Sir Garnet]

On Egypt. Kensai please roll 2 D6 dice and report back. if the score is 2-5, I take it that means Egyptian will has broken or the Khedive has finagled things and able to accede to the package mentioned or whatever may be on offer. If the score is 6-8, Ciitzen X takes over to work on a deal as before when mediating, if 9-12 then the patient faithful are heartened by the other entanglements if the infidels and Citizen X or I can play Egypt in that scenario for the purpose of getting favorable terms. Not hard to do - it's mostly the usual petit guerre and sitting and waiting for the occupiers to weary and go home or be forced elsewhere. That's not a very Danish thing to do, for example, but Arabs can be very patient and conscientious with their feuds, so it fits.


Could add some percentage chance of slipping through a sweetheart deal puppet package if offered, to represent the Khedive and supporters being and staying bought.

So please report the roll.

[Sir Garnet]

We already found there is something strange with force pools incidental to the critical auto-upgrade problem. Kensai, I agreed with you that force pools in general are probably too high in ship count with each unit being 4 ships rather than 1, 2 or 3, but given the way the engine works they need to be 4+ ship units, and the question is what is affected and relative size.

You had a great idea to generate a report of the current force pools (could be done with initial ones as well) which in a spreadsheet could be readily analyzed and compared.

So instead of that why are you coming back with this blast from the past?

Sir Garnet, I suspect the custom script we ran for the Brazilian force pools gave an oversized battleship pool.

We already know that the force pools are heavy on heavy warships for game design reasons. Unless this is all only about Brazil for you, run the reports on all the national force pools for units and military structures and we can analyze and find out whether the differenecs make sense, after discovering from AGEOD on what principles the pools are to be based so we know whether things are intentional or not.

Your technologies alone (at this stage) cannot account alone for that huge availability.

I know this si not gibberish, but that's the effect. What exactly do you believe technologies have to do with force pools? The only modifer that I know of is that leadership one we discovered, which is not very large even for spectacular leaders (e.g, Brazil, Germany, Japan, Britain have all had these).

I believe you have a bigger BB pool than GBR.

Belief and faith are fine, but what are the facts? Let's have the report numbers then if you are concerned about it. Even if force pools were infinite, finances and diminishing marginal advantages would cap them.

Try to remember what script you submitted we need to pass it again on the reverse. In the meantime stop building new BBs, they might be above your quotas.

No and no. I can count ships if I put my mind to it and I know my quotas. After waking up in the morning you may feel the urgent need to run a script, but that will pass if focusing on the factual situation.

The BRZ naval force pool was already enormous by the time you submitted it, I warned against but again wasn't heard, now with the techs it's too big.

I'd laugh if it was not so tiresome and so late. What "with the techs it's too big" means I don't know. In the Player Discussion where is found the script is alsothe Background Fix Brazil Ship Quotas 1870.txt that takes an additional minute to locate.

From that, this was the "already enormous" broken BRZ naval force pool before the script:

BRZ 10 SOL, 0 Screw Fr*, 6 Corvettes - 11 Transports

* Brazil exceeded this shockingly large quota of Frigates since the start of the game, having been issued two frigate units by AGEOD in the initial force creations.

It can easily be seen how much this excessively outnumbered the tiny force pools of lesser naval powers

SPA 18 SOL, 14 Screw Fr, 19 Corvettes (10 sail 9 Ironclad) ?? transports
HOL 16 SOL, 11 Screw Fr, 18 Corvettes (8 sail 10 Screw) ?? transports
POR 15 SOL, 9 Screw Fr, 15 Corvettes (8 Wooden 7 Screw)-Transports 13 Transports

and with the script which you propose to reverse below caused them to shrink almost to invisibility (it being so enormous to start, it blocked the necessary light).

We should run this in reverse:

Code: Select all

SelectRegion = $Rio de Janeiro
StartEvent = Brazil Naval Fix (1878)|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Rio de Janeiro|NULL

Actions
SelectFaction = $BRZ
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_War2;-6
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Frg2;-10
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Rec3;-3
ChangeUnitPool = $uni_BRZ_Tra2;-4

EndEvent

Or maybe, before further rash action, let's find out how larrge or small the various force pools are, normalize them for leadership, normalize them for whatever technology multiplier you seem to keep referring to and do some analysis.

Or, considering that it is a considerable task for those interested, focus on some really game breaking issues we already have and are upcoming, such as scripted events that are disruptive in this alternate history.

[Kensai]

Why don't we run the above script, see what force pools remain for Brazil, compare them on the fly with the rest of South Americans (Netherlands, etc) and then reinstitute it if incorrect? The reason I insist is because if I hadn't caught this "minor glitch" in less than 10 years time you would have an unhistorically huge navy of 39 battleship units, probably more than GBR and GER combined... this is a very serious imbalance issue!

Regarding Egypt, no need to dice rolls (although a great method indeed!!), I can't believe it I had to coerce you into playing myself for people to take over a nation. I already have my hands full with JAP or GRE, I will be more than happy for someone to take EGY (you or Citizen X). Actually, I wish I could convince you take over Portugal again as well (but I guess it has a player already, albeit mute).

Btw, a more generic problem... are the players of SPA, POR, DAN, BEL following us? They are quite silent most of the turns... :-/

[Kensai]

Ottoman navy had 5 percent of its potential on the map when war broke out (and about 10% of its army actually fielded). Just saying.

Nobody will ever blame you for stepping into the worst possible moment for your avatar nation and still fighting valiantly. If it makes you feel better, I had the exact opposite experience, a player stepped in (for China) and made good diplomacy, turning Japan's old friends against it.

It happens. This makes for a more exciting game in the long run.

On topic: your force pools seem normal to me; there shouldn't be any problem after all, as TUR was a playable nation up from the start, it must have been set up properly. Thanks for posting these quotas, but we actually need GBR's, FRA's, and GER's to be certain. I am pretty sure nobody can match the 39 battleships BRZ can build...

[Sir Garnet]

The prospective Portuguese player decided against it. I am still playing Portugal - quiet since neutral and uninvolved in the big goings on. Odo posted for Spain recently, so he may be following things. Soulstrider with Belgium (and Chile still, I think) is playing - after getting sandwiched at war would tend to lead to quiet. No idea on Denmark.I

[Sir Garnet]

I am too tired to keep track of the barrage of messages and the annoying PM pop up without errors - I jusr wrote a response and posted - somewhere - or now it's gone - anyway...

Let us NOT do anything on the fly but instead sit down and study with a basis for analysis as to what is "correct".

because if I hadn't caught this "minor glitch" in less than 10 years time you would have an unhistorically huge navy of 39 battleship units, probably more than GBR and GER combined... this is a very serious imbalance issue!

Indeed I would, heh heh, nothin I likes better than the no-cost maintenance-free battleships the force pool glitch provides with the auto-build button. Pity the fools who have to bankrupt themselves to pay to build and keep their bloated navies! Definitely a very real and immediate critical issue.

If you really want the fun of wiping out frigate force pools, I'll go along with EVERYONE's Force Pool being modified by -999 so all in the same boat, as it were, to contemplate force pool issues on an even keel while waiting for the post-frigate ships to legitimately come along (rather than auto-updates).

Though how it will work given the range of old and newer ship models? What will actually change? I don't know, do you?

I need to get turns done while I have the patience and interest.

[bjfagan]

Germany has a total build allowance of 16 steel battleships right now and has 28 ironclad battleships in the construction pool which does not include those on the map. I will have to add them up but I believe the number will be close to 36. So it appears Brazil has the same force pool as Germany. Whether Brazil actually builds those and is willing to maintain them is a different matter.

Also, I don't understand why we need to rashly modify the force pools in our game, the numbers are meaningless until they actually get built, but we cannot alter our borders to fit our alternate reality or even follow what would be an historical possibility in the real world.

[Kensai]

So it is true then. Brazil has now a larger naval force pool than Germany, at least in battleships.
Q.E.D.

Surreal. Anyway, Sir Garnet, I give you the benefit of doubt here so we should not rush indeed things. I will prepare and run the ChangeForcePool=0 script for all nations and report here before asking for any proposals for action.

Late November 1878

[bjfagan]

So it is true then. Brazil has now a larger naval force pool than Germany, at least in battleships.
Q.E.D.

I thought I just stated they are the same. How did you come up with their force being bigger?

[Sir Garnet]

So it is true then. Brazil has now a larger naval force pool than Germany, at least in battleships.
Q.E.D.

Just as a math point, you are saying that the 26 +13 you mentioned earlier is greater than 28+16 plus a lot of German ships already on the map. Q.E.E.

You still not have explained the comment that some techs Brazil has are responsible for the pool - if there are pool-skewing techs, we should find out.

Brian has the essence of it - that Brazil is not the pools are in the same ballpark. Brian reckoned 36 ICBB in all and I count 29 theoretical ICBB for Brazil counting the map and build menu. Only theoretically possible in my view - what counts are the ships that can and should be built for practical reasons - the corvettes and frigates - and the GPs have a great lot of those and don't need to substitute large ships for small ones.

Since the BRZ allotments were set below Spain and close to Netherlands and a distinct amount below Spain, we will see if those relations remain in place (adjusting for leader changes). Britain, US, France may be larger.

And then have logical thoughts about what it should mean and be tied to. Pop? Wealth? Naval traditions? Commerce? Coastline? - Chile and Brazil are eboth heavily dependent on waterborne transport and each with more national coastline than any other substantial power except the US and Russia. Or just say Britain gets the biggest navy but the Germans can have more battlecruisers or something like that.



Kensai, P.S. Please be so kind as to remember to include Fort structure pools as well. Depots? Does anyone ever run out of those? And I don't know if colonial stuctures are capped in the aggregate at all.

I think it a reasonable proposal for the small Latin American countries to get the 5 or 6 they have, the larger ones (Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Colombia) to get 12 and the largest (Argentina, Brazil, Mexico) to get 18 (it seems like they all have 5-6 now, vs. anecdotal info on unused forts suggesting European countries and majors have pools that are several times larger have larger relative pools). This is all the more important since Latin America is not provided with any garrisions/fort troop models.


If there is cut and pasting text into Excel columns and such I can provide help.

[Citizen X]

Nobody will ever blame you for stepping into the worst possible moment for your avatar nation and still fighting valiantly.

Sarcasm?

[lukasberger]

Sarcasm?

Didn't sound like it to me. Pretty sure he meant it as a compliment.

[Citizen X]

Didn't sound like it to me. Pretty sure he meant it as a compliment.

I know

[Kensai]

Just as a math point, you are saying that the 26 +13 you mentioned earlier is greater than 28+16 plus a lot of German ships already on the map. Q.E.E.

You still not have explained the comment that some techs Brazil has are responsible for the pool - if there are pool-skewing techs, we should find out.

The techs give bonuses above the base quotas. Yourself had once implied that these bonuses are proportional to the base. If the base is enormous then these bonuses will be huge as well. It is not normal for a minor nation to have such a big navy potential, it blows balance out of proportion.

I will try to prepare a comprehensive structure/force pool test so we can have a clearer idea. It should not be difficult. For example here's Argentina starting force pool, I am not sure if we need to set the -999 (which probably mean tech not attained yet) to 0s, but I guess it will be safe (have to ask Pocus):

Code: Select all

SelectFaction = $CMN
SelectRegion = $Anglia
StartEvent = Checking of the Pools|1|1|NULL|NULL|$Anglia|NULL

Actions

SelectFaction = $ARG
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1840_Div;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1840M_Div;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1850_Div;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1840;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1840S;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1840_Bde;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1840M_Bde;10
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1850_Bde;5
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1840CA;3
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Sup_Sup1;4
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1850_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1870_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1890_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1850M_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1870M_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1910M_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1910_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1860_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1870_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1890_Div;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1850;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1880;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1890;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1910;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1850S;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1880H;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1890H;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1910H;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1915H;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1890S;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1850_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1870_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1910_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1850M_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1870M_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Inf_1910M_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1860_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1870_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Cav_1890_Bde;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1850CA;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1870CA;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Art_1890CA;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Sup_Sup2;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_War2;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Tra2;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv1;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv2;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_War3;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv3;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_CD01;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_BA04;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_PC01;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_TB01;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Tra3;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv4;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_CD02;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_BB06;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_BB07;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer1;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer2;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer3;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer4;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer5;-999
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer6;-999

EndEvent

Now if Argentina has this naval force pool

Code: Select all

  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_War2;1
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Tra2;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv1;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Riv2;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer1;2
  ChangeUnitPool = $uni_ARG_Mer2;2

do not tell me it is normal nearby Brazil has a War2 value of 16... This is an insane imbalance to the historical plausibility. Alright, Emperor Pedro was a very capable man, but we have to take into consideration the in game balance.

---

Important: The German nation forged a Casus Belli against the Japanese Empire without giving a valid justification to their action. The actual declaration of war is not required to be justified (or even declared here), but the CB forge is. A 10% VP penalty might be in order. Moreover, I loaded the Egyptian turn and again there was no peace offer from Germany. Is there a problem from the German interface as well? (cause from the Egyptian side you cannot vie for peace for some reason). Since this is up to Citizen X to negotiate, if there are issues regarding the potential peace write here so we can force peace through a script.

[Citizen X]

Moreover, I loaded the Egyptian turn and again there was no peace offer from Germany. Is there a problem from the German interface as well? (cause from the Egyptian side you cannot vie for peace for some reason). Since this is up to Citizen X to negotiate, if there are issues regarding the potential peace write here so we can force peace through a script.

Haven't recieved an answer so far on my peace suggestion. For me, anything is in order.

[Citizen X]

http://ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?28573-PON-World-In-Conflict-General-Discussion-Thread&p=276133&viewfull=1#post276133

[Kensai]

No problem, Citizen X. As per our vote, we should be adding two diplomats each semester for the Ottomans and cross fingers that Pocus fixes this altogether in v1.04.

I think there is another potential bug, I wonder how France got to land in Korea in a region with 100% Japanese MC. Yes, it is colonial region, yes the original owner is China but the MC is Japanese and I don't recall giving passage rights in France...

[De_Spinoza]

No problem, Citizen X. As per our vote, we should be adding two diplomats each semester for the Ottomans and cross fingers that Pocus fixes this altogether in v1.04.

I think there is another potential bug, I wonder how France got to land in Korea in a region with 100% Japanese MC. Yes, it is colonial region, yes the original owner is China but the MC is Japanese and I don't recall giving passage rights in France...

Obviously I am trying to spark a 'tension' CB by placing French stacks near Japanese troops/territory, and I knew that another nation's MC in colonial areas won't prevent any other nation from landing there - Korea is still a protectorate right? I could also move through German protectorates in Africa with French troops, so I think this is working as intended. Just part of the colonial game; being a not-fully-developed colonial area (and thus 'open'), Korea is accessible to all. Japanese MC does not equal Japanese de facto rule.

[nemethand]

Haven't recieved an answer so far on my peace suggestion. For me, anything is in order.

I am fine with you taking over Egypt. I would even be fine if in this one case we lift the 'no interference' rule and you play both the Ottomans and Egypt as a single entitiy, working together towards the same goal(s). Based on my limited knowledge of respective history, this might even have happened in real life.

[Kensai]

Obviously I am trying to spark a 'tension' CB by placing French stacks near Japanese troops/territory, and I knew that another nation's MC in colonial areas won't prevent any other nation from landing there - Korea is still a protectorate right? I could also move through German protectorates in Africa with French troops, so I think this is working as intended. Just part of the colonial game; being a not-fully-developed colonial area (and thus 'open'), Korea is accessible to all. Japanese MC does not equal Japanese de facto rule.

Got it, was not aware of it. Kind of unrealistic though. MC should be the supreme factor when deciding where one nation can enter or not. This is actually the 'de facto' rule. That it is Chinese territory is the 'de jure' rule. Btw, the reason you can enter it is because you France has passage rights from China, otherwise as soon it becomes Protectorate you should not be able to enter it. I wasn't able to enter Korea before declaring war, why could France?

Although, admittedly, what you say about French troops entering German Protectorates perplexes me. Are you sure you were not at war? I think I was ousted from Portuguese territory and could never again enter it (once it became Protectorate) when I was playing Belgium, for the same reason.

I am fine with you taking over Egypt. I would even be fine if in this one case we lift the 'no interference' rule and
you play both the Ottomans and Egypt as a single entitiy, working together towards the same goal(s). Based on my limited knowledge of respective history, this might even have happened in real life.

Indeed. They had their quarrels, but these were stopped after Muhammad Ali's death, just before the starting date of the game. For the era of the game, Turkey should help Egypt and Egypt Turkey as if they were a single multinational country. Only a few such pairs exist: the other is probably Brazil-Portugal which already happens under Sir Garnet.

Any other pairs you can imagine? I tried for Belgium-Netherlands when I had started this game. If ever the British dominions became free, a player could try those too. Btw, probably the only way to stop a big country of accumulating much Prestige per turn without the drawbacks of actually owning its revolt-prone colonies is to go ahead and liberate those countries in question.

A very very demonic plan!

[lukasberger]

I am fine with you taking over Egypt. I would even be fine if in this one case we lift the 'no interference' rule and you play both the Ottomans and Egypt as a single entitiy, working together towards the same goal(s). Based on my limited knowledge of respective history, this might even have happened in real life.

Same here.

[Kensai]

Early December 1878

[Sir Garnet]

I was wondering what the French force was doing there. Important to note down these nuances.

Thanks for the additional historical background and I agree the Ottoman-Egyptian alliance and the dire circumstances would tend to push them to collaborate, at least until things start going very well, in which case a falling out becomes more likely.

[Kensai]

I was wondering what the French force was doing there. Important to note down these nuances.

This is clearly a reportable bug in my opinion. And if it is not, then we have a major flaw in abstraction. The exact opposite is perfectly possible, ie if the French force was already there then the Japanese entry would have raised MC to 95% unless Japan was at war with France. But in this case Japan had already 100% MC in all regions, no nation should have been possible to enter it without having passage rights from Japan or at war with it. The fact that China is the 'de jure' owner is inconsequential, Japan had already achieved 100% MC, meaning complete owning of all potential entry points.

Out of curiosity, Spinoza, are your troops supplied as well?!

Thanks for the additional historical background and I agree the Ottoman-Egyptian alliance and the dire circumstances would tend to push them to collaborate, at least until things start going very well, in which case a falling out becomes more likely.

Well up to a point, always. They had common goals more or less, but the Ottomans should not be able to use the Egyptians as cannon fodder. That's not why I meant!

[De_Spinoza]

I was wondering what the French force was doing there. Important to note down these nuances.

Yes, I should have explained this earlier in the diplomacy topic, but could not find the time before.

[coolbean]

Finally back from the beach, haven't had a chance to load any turns yet.

Ouch, just saw the naval defeat dealt to the USA by Japan. I guess the only way to get rid of wooden sail ships is to slam them into the enemy and hope that at least one element survives... unfortunately wood doesn't match up well against steel and iron...

Sir Garnet, I just saw your e-mails and will be responding, thank you for your time with the turns.

Has anyone expressed interest in taking over the USA permanently or temporarily? After the next couple of weeks I unfortunately will really not have enough time for turns until the end of July, but by the end of July I should be able to be back full time... I want to assure players that any agreements I made as the USA I would pass on to the next player, of course.