[PON] Conflict in Europe - General Thread

[lukasberger]

I feel very similarly to coolbean and De_Spinoza. coolbean's words are essentially the same as I would say. So I think it's time for me to go too.

Thanks to all for the good times.

[Kensai]

Spinoza has too much class to say so in here.

Spinoza, a person I have played various games so far with, has already told me privately his reasons he is leaving and most importantly why now. Therefore stop insinuating it is my fault more than it is everyone's fault.

[De_Spinoza]

In addition to the general 'malfunctioning formula' of CiE that lies beyond the control of any one player, the only person that is at fault for me leaving is, well, me. And I will leave it at that .

[bjfagan]

By my count, this is now at least 5 players that Kensai has run out of this game. MontgomeryJLion, Sagji, De_Spinoza, Coolbean, Lukasberger... any others?

Kensai, since you have your own game running which you obviously like better than this one, why don't you graciously drop from CIE and let us play on... without you.

[Sir Garnet]

That's actually true.

Kensai is playing a Great Power and a Minor, and has a serious conflict.

Article IV of the Treaty of St Petersburg regarding Dutch renunciation has not expired. It is guaranteed by France and Russia as well as Brazil and exposes the Netherlands to a CB from everyone which will devastate the Netherlands. Hijacking and wrecking the Netherlands is abuse.

[Jonathan Pollard]

By my count, this is now at least 5 players that Kensai has run out of this game. MontgomeryJLion, Sagji, De_Spinoza, Coolbean, Lukasberger... any others?

Kensai, since you have your own game running which you obviously like better than this one, why don't you graciously drop from CIE and let us play on... without you.

Instead of Kensai dropping out, why don't we follow Kensai's example of his split-off CIE game and invite the players that are frustrated by Kensai's antics to a Kensai-free split-off of this game? That way Kensai can keep his 3 countries and the rest of us will have an improved gaming experience.

[Sir Garnet]

Kensai, I am always amazed at how you can justify things. On one hand you want a close historically accurate game and realistic to our time frame, then on the other hand you only want to do whatever the game engine allows. Then as soon as someone does something within the game, you complain that it is not historically accurate. Each case flips back and forth based on what suits you.

It's high skill in debate and sophistry. Even Socrates could not get a point through, so I for one have been foolish to try - exhausting time reading, thinking through issues, and making relevant points that are deflected rather than addressed. I apologize for feeding the threatrics - just so hard to stay silent sometimes. The game would benefit from a reasonable non-playing arbiter to take issues off stage and just resolve them.

Kensai called this an "foolish arcade" game because he did get his way. Kensai has, as he recounts above, pitched his enormous energies into putting "arcade stuff" into this game, serving to fulfill his assertion, rather than doing the civilized thing and either playing fair in a serious way or just bowing out (as it appeared was the case for a few days) and running his gamefork his own way.

That Kensai is doing this with a sincere conviction of rectitude and the best of intentions does not relieve the exhaustion and frustration caused for other players. It creates a needless added dead weight overhead burden beyond the time reasonably required for play and dipomacy. Kensai is not intending to wreck the game for anyone - it's just a side effect of his mission. Not his fault, just his nature - so it's love it or leave it. Be it noted that he seems to get along fine in 2 player where there's no room for argument, just the game.

So I am interested in continuing the game without this drama (with a scripted reversal of Kensai's Netherlands diplomatic arcade demarche, better than having to back up a turn or two to cancel it out), if others are interested.

[Savoyard]

I have the perfect song for this conversation.

[Kensai]

Being a right host, bjfagan, is a difficult business. Especially with all the convoluted game engine decisions and possibilities a player has in game to abuse what is happening. I have taken much flak because of my attempts to keep this game from breaking. No, I will not take responsibility for the other players' leaving especially since you are outright lying for the motives some of these other players' left. You fail to tell everyone here how, for the few turns you have been host, how you abused every possible game rule we devised and voted including punishing your own avatar nation by giving it the right prestige penalty, how you abused the extended claims, how you failed to describe the implications of that decision had. Jee, you even started a secret vote to put my avatar nation in AI with your pals. You weren't mature and fair enough as player to put this thing in a vote.

Now some players are leaving, incidentally when your little agreeable business of doing a private unrealistic unhindered war between huge nations and singled out one fails. An unrealistic war started by "forum pals" which decided to *punish* another guy who bugs you with his little rules in the forum (which YOU voted and agreed, I simply made sure we enforced). I bet you would have DOWed me without reason even if I played Switzerland! Btw, everyone is saying that I have destroyed Netherlands just because of the CB when you don't even know what are my future plans. From my point of view, the CB was quite successful given the "real life uproar" it created. It is crystal clear that some people are frustrated because their little in-game plans now have to be revised to take into consideration... hear hear... REALITY. The fact that another nation takes advantage of the mess other nations created. When Germany does it in the Far East without even giving an explanation it is fine, when Netherlands does it it is cheating.

But it would be a shame if you forced me to leave the game the very moment you landed your troops in Japan where I have a remote possibility to kick your ass again. Wouldn't it, bjfagan? Now be a big boy and play. All the wars so far you've won were against players who couldn't or wouldn't coordinate (Austria, France) or if other players had *forgotten* to cancel their passage rights (the reason Vezina left in frustration, which you forget to mention). All in all, I have to say that this is your one possibility to prove you know how to play this game without being a bottom feeder. But of course you can be saved by the bell and split the game again, what a coincidence, the moment you were about to lose again in game, where it counts...

Sir Garnet,
the treaty does not matter. I might make Netherlands take the 10% Prestige penalty and break that treaty. After all, bjfagan started this trend of not applying prestige penalties when breaking a treaty or a house rule and I didn't see you or anyone else taking a stance on the matter. But practically, too, Netherlands has too low Prestige to care too much for this stuff. "Hijacking and wrecking" are too heavy words to use by a man who was starting wars with the Cherokee (!!) and Oman (!!!) just to land in China (!!!!!) with Brazil (!!!!!).

And btw, lest you forget, Sir Garnet, the reason Spinoza left the first time in frustration was because you wouldn't agree to a peace treaty between Netherlands and Brazil. At least now, he is starting his summer vacations (but let's not ruin that and keep it that Kensai made him leave)...

[nemethand]

Yes, but the precedent is that secondary nations are for economic development purposes to increase overall resources production.

I simpls stated a fact that there is already a player playing 3 countries, against which no objection was raised.

Nemethand, you said yourself in an e-mail not one hour ago that if Kensai declared war on USA/CHI/GER as the Netherlands he would be breaking house rules.

That's an assessment I maintain. The rule (practice) is absolutely clear that there can be no interference whatsoever betwenn (among) the nations a single player plays. You may recall when Lukas was warned when he, with his South American country concluded a commercial agreement his his major - Austria? - to be able to build coal mines in the latter. This is a much smaller interference than attackin/threatening one' enemies.

Thus, I still conclude that the Netherlands can take no part in the ongoing wars of either of Greece or Japan, which would qualify as a serious breach of the non-interference rule.

Kensai is playing a Great Power and a Minor, and has a serious conflict.

Article IV of the Treaty of St Petersburg regarding Dutch renunciation has not expired. It is guaranteed by France and Russia as well as Brazil and exposes the Netherlands to a CB from everyone which will devastate the Netherlands. Hijacking and wrecking the Netherlands is abuse.

I agree with the conflict issue. This, however, does not invalidate my remark over a fact, which exists, i.e. that we already have an instance of 3 nations being played by a single player. (No offense intended, Citizen.)

Now some players are leaving, incidentally when your little agreeable business of doing a private unrealistic unhindered war between huge nations and singled out one fails. An unrealistic war started by "forum pals" which decided to *punish* another guy who bugs you with his little rules in the forum (which YOU voted and agreed, I simply made sure we enforced).

I believe that this is a serious error in assessment. All parties have given an explanation, which I personally found reasonable, plausible and acceptable.


I find the recent debates on the forums in the last few days, including its inception and further development, being childish. It seems that some of us has lost sight of what the objective of the (our) game has been. What's even more worrysome and sad, that somebody was already prevented from joining tha game, thus, this forum creates the exact opposite result: instead of convincing others about the greatness of the game and our experience, we discouraged others. That's simply sad.

[Sir Garnet]

Instead of Kensai dropping out, why don't we follow Kensai's example of his split-off CIE game and invite the players that are frustrated by Kensai's antics to a Kensai-free split-off of this game? That way Kensai can keep his 3 countries and the rest of us will have an improved gaming experience.

Agreed that is the only practical solution to get back to playing the game.


To save everyone's time being wasted in the Sisyphean task of responding to Kensai, consider every Kensai post in this thread beginning with the preceding one automatically objected to in all applicable respects. Detailed objections not already found in prior episodes in the CIE threads are available on request. (please indicate post number)

[Citizen X]

(No offense intended, Citizen.)

None taken

I find the recent debates on the forums in the last few days, including its inception and further development, being childish. It seems that some of has has lost sight of what the objective of the (our) game has been. What's even more worrysome and sad, that somebody was already prevented from joining tha game, thus, this forum creates the exact opposite result: instead of convincing others about the greatness of the game and our experience, we discouraged others. That's simply sad.

I agree here, we didn't much display an example of evolved civilization here.

[Kensai]

I believe that this is a serious error in assessment. All parties have given an explanation, which I found reasonable, plausible and acceptable.

What was bjfagan's explanation again? No CB explanation, no DOW explanation. Just grudges of being beaten in game, fair and square, a decade ago in game terms, by a better player and a lesser nation. If this is not the definition of pathetic I do not know what it is.

Agreed that is the only practical solution to get back to playing the game.

The only practical solution to get back in game is stop posting ridiculous accusations and submit orders. Otherwise, declare you abandon the game and we can turn Brazil/Portugal to AI. This is the main problem I have been implying all along: too many forum posts, too many script requests, too many out-of-game arrangements, too little actual to-the-role in-game-resolving.

[bjfagan]

Late June 1879

[Kensai]

Thanks. Maybe we should turn all the newly available nations to AI.

[Lindi]

Just for said, I leave this game, not because I not like, only for focus on World in Conflict PBM game, so sorry, for Italy I back with more good country before Venezia is back to Italy so is pretty good.

For that I wish good continu for this game, and ++

[glennbob]

Well this game went to shit...

[Kensai]

Early July 1879

Since some last players had submitted their orders waiting what would happen next and I was quite curious myself if I could indeed (as Japan) bounce the combined German-Chinese onslaught, I decided to resolve this last turn. Well, since the orders of landing by the attacking forces were given BEFORE the players decided to abandon the ship (although Netherlands never actually declared war!) we might as well solve the mystery regarding the outcome.

This was the situation when the Germans decided to land on Japan, helped by an adjunct Chinese expedition force.



In Northern Honshu, the Japanese forces were ready to bounce any American incursion, regardless if the Americans kept reserve forces for (!!) Netherlands or not. 3 Generals with at least 6K worth of forces in 3 distinct armies and more under recruitment were waiting for the inevitable second front. Tokyo itself could resist a hell lot of assaults, with many stuffed resources and even a specialized "fort defender" leader.



The outcome of the battle in Fukuoka... well, let's just say that bjfagan screwed his offensive again (for a 3rd time in a row in this theater of operations). Even with the help of the Chinese the result were damning for the German-Chinese forces. Just look at the numbers, as more Japanese troops were coming in, the German-Chinese had no chance of relieving their forces. And notice that Saigo has not even committed yet. No doubt their players decided to abandon game this very turn.

(btw: I resolved this turn twice without turning the nations in AI and two with turning them to AI... just to be certain, the result was always the same, regardless)





The next fortnight, the situation for the German-Chinese forces looks desperate. Unless bjfagan could bring in fast (perhaps using his exploit: the scripted Suez channel) some extra 3-4K worth of troops from Europe or elsewhere just to counter the Japanese in numbers and playing at home turf, it will be total defeat in a matter of two months or so (4-5 turns). Next turn Saigo would have arrived (or marched to the sound of guns) with an astonishing number of fresh troops to hit the battle-worn Germans in Fukuoka who were already separated from their Chinese allies. Once MC was lost, probably next turn already, the engine would have been quite brutal to the stranded offenders. Without MC and bases they would have no supplies coming in, no replacements for troops, even the dice roll for leader activation would have been less probable. In other words, a major defeat of the Germans and Chinese was averted by... the not playing of their players!



Aaanyway. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. We had our good times and our bad times, I hope most of you remember the good times. All players that have abandoned this MP since it started were players that one way or another were losing with their avatar nations. For better or for worse, we kept this tradition up to the end.

[Sir Garnet]

The majority of players of this game have resolved that it would be desirable to leave this game and continue with a fork of this game in a separate game under revised rules - CIE Redux. Some others have retired, and openings are available in general to current and past players of CIE and new players, but there are fewer playable countries.