frank7350
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William S. Rosecrans

Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:09 am

currently:

240 USA William S. Rosecrans ldr_USA_Rosecrans3 NULL NULL NULL NULL 4 5 3 11 General 1 NULL 4 2 3

thoughts:

needs a corps leader entry...

may want to lower strat to 3 to reflect his cautious nature

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Korrigan
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Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:36 pm

240 USA William S. Rosecrans ldr_USA_Rosecrans3 NULL NULL NULL NULL 4 5 3 11 General 1 NULL 3 2 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_S._Rosecrans
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain

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lycortas
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Rosie

Tue May 13, 2008 10:00 pm

240 USA William S. Rosecrans ldr_USA_Rosecrans3 NULL NULL NULL NULL 4 5 3 11 General 1 NULL 1 2 2

As a corp commander probably 2-2-2

This is the man who sat for 6 months with a 3-2 advantage in men and did nothing. Then took 6 more months to travel 50 miles. He was Mac without the charisma or skill. Remember, Grant was going to cashier him for incompetence just before he was promoted.

Lincolns promotions were so random and unpredictable. It was something like
'survive a battle anywhere without most of your troops routing away and be promoted to Major General and probably put in charge of the army of the potomac'.


Mike

anarchyintheuk
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Wed May 14, 2008 10:44 pm

lycortas wrote:240 USA William S. Rosecrans ldr_USA_Rosecrans3 NULL NULL NULL NULL 4 5 3 11 General 1 NULL 1 2 2

As a corp commander probably 2-2-2

This is the man who sat for 6 months with a 3-2 advantage in men and did nothing. Then took 6 more months to travel 50 miles. He was Mac without the charisma or skill. Remember, Grant was going to cashier him for incompetence just before he was promoted.

Lincolns promotions were so random and unpredictable. It was something like
'survive a battle anywhere without most of your troops routing away and be promoted to Major General and probably put in charge of the army of the potomac'.

Mike


Couple of points:

Mac sat for than 6 months w/ an even greater advantage in numbers when Johnston was at Centerville.

Rosecrans directed one of the best maneuver campaigns of the war. Few major objectives (Chattanooga) were captured as easily.

Like Mac, Rosecrans was a terrible battlefield commander (except Iuka, I guess) but at least all of his troops would be engaged during the battle.

lycortas
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what?

Thu May 15, 2008 1:59 am

Excuse me?

Mac is rated a '1' strat, i am proposing '2' for Rosie. That is mathmatically twice as active.
I am annoyed by people who call Tullohoma a great campaign. That's nice, next time do this in April. He had a manpower advantage the whole year and sat for 6 months. Then he proceded not to fight a battle, which mind you was Lincoln's new recomendation.

Remember, a general can advance without being activated, he just cannot attack. Honestly for my own version i am rating Rosie a '1' as he never attacked anyone as an army commander. Mac at least attacked once.

Mike

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LMUBill
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Thu May 15, 2008 4:34 pm

lycortas wrote:Excuse me?

Mac is rated a '1' strat, i am proposing '2' for Rosie. That is mathmatically twice as active.
I am annoyed by people who call Tullohoma a great campaign. That's nice, next time do this in April. He had a manpower advantage the whole year and sat for 6 months. Then he proceded not to fight a battle, which mind you was Lincoln's new recomendation.

Remember, a general can advance without being activated, he just cannot attack. Honestly for my own version i am rating Rosie a '1' as he never attacked anyone as an army commander. Mac at least attacked once.

Mike



Rosecrans tried to attack Bragg several times during the Tullahoma campaign and Chickamauga was a result of Rosecrans trying to trap Bragg in Chattanooga and force a battle or starve him out. So it was his fault that Bragg didn't behave according to Rosecrans' plans?

Rosecrans actually led the successful attack at Rich Mountain as well, but Mac took all the credit for that one.

One thing to consider, especially when talking about MacClellan and certain other generals in the Civil War is that they were all "brought up" at the Academy studying Napoleonic tactics (especially maneuver) and that was what they tried to do for the first 2-3 years of the war. So while many people look back on them with a 20th/21st century perspective (which favors generals like Thomas, Grant and Sherman), at the time they were following what were considered standard military strategy/tactics. And as styles changed the ones who wouldn't/couldn't adapt were weeded out.

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W.Barksdale
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Thu May 15, 2008 5:12 pm

I'd agree Rosy's strategy rating is too high. This quote refers to the fight between Van Dorn's Army and the combined Armies of the Tennesee\Mississippi, early October, 1862.

Rosecrans himself was confused and uncertain. Not until midafternoon had it dawned on him that Corinth was the Confederates' main objective. In a midday dispatch to Grant, he accused Oliver's brigade of acting 'feebly,' and slandered the sterling performance of the Second and Sixth divisions. "Our men did not act or fight well," he complained.... In fact, it was Rosecrans who had not done well...


This is from "Nothing but Victory: The Army of the Tennessee, 1861-1865" and is confirmed in "The War of the Rebellion: Official records of the Union and Confederate Armies" vol.17, pt.1, pg. 160.
There are many other examples of his poor grasp of strategy and action.
"Tell General Lee that if he wants a bridge of dead Yankees I can furnish him with one."
-General William Barksdale at Fredericksburg

tagwyn
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Thu May 15, 2008 10:19 pm

I agree with Korrilgan's suggestion. "O'le Rosey" was generally well liked by his troops and always tried to do right by them. :p apy:

Brochgale
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Thu May 15, 2008 10:52 pm

tagwyn wrote:I agree with Korrilgan's suggestion. "O'le Rosey" was generally well liked by his troops and always tried to do right by them. :p apy:


Maybe Rosey and Johston could have a staring contest to settle outcome of ACW?
"How noble is one, to love his country:how sad the fate to mingle with those you hate"
W.A.Fletcher "Memoirs Of A Confederate Soldier"

Shabaka
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:32 am

Rosecrans had the good fortune of facing Braxton Bragg in the 1862 Tennessee campaigns. Win lose or draw Bragg tended to retreat after a battle. If Rosecrans had faced off against Joe Johnston he would have had his derriere handed to him at Stones River.

Joe Johnston's rating of 4-2-4 should be more in line of 5-1-6 or 4-2-6. His Atlanta campaign was brilliant. If Pemberton had followed Johnstons orders and not holed up in Vicksburg, Grant would have had his hands full in late summer of '63.

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Crimguy
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Tue May 20, 2008 6:50 am

You guys are all hitting the pipe. Joe Johnston is overrated as is, IMHO. Rosecrans is probably about right as is. He was by no means brilliant, but was a capable commander overall. He also led from the front, unlike Lil Mac, who was frequently out of touch with the goings on in the battlefield (Malvern Hill e.g.).

As an army commander he might have had a bit too much to chew on, but I think a 4 rating is ok for Rosecrans.

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cobraII
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Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:45 pm

shabaka pemberton was following orders the orders of jefferson davis, to hold vicksburg at all cost. If i remeber right it was Johnson who would not come to pembertons aid during the vicksburg campaign despite Jefferson Davis sending telegram after telegram to try and budge johnson into aided vicksburg

woodcojb
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Rosecrans

Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:12 pm

Rosecrans gained his Army command because of fights he got into from West Virginia to Iuka to Corinth. As an army commander his view of warfare was much like Halleck and Buell, war by manuvering. That at least is something (not recommended) as it shows signs of strategic thinking. 3 is average, so 3 it is.
3-2-3 at Army works for me, though 3-1-3 is possible since I can't think of a single offensive movement that Rosecrans pulled off, Corinth, Stones River, and Chickamauga all being defensive in nature...
Corps- 3-2-3
Army- 3-1-3

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