Pat Cleburne

[Chris0827]

200 CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne NULL NULL NULL NULL 3 3 1 27 General 1 NULL 6 1 4


Probably the best division commander of the war. Often called the Stonewall of the West. Some thought Jackson should've been called the Cleburne of the East. Gen Hardee said "Where his division defended, no odds broke it's lines; where it attacked, no numbers resisted it's onslaught, save only once - and there is the grave of Cleburne and his heroic division." His men were superbly trained, especially in musketry. A union officer opposing them assumed that Cleburne's men had repeating rifles since their rate of fire was so high. Unfortunately for the South he never gained higher command due to his proposal to free slaves in exchange for military service.

Proposed stats- Strategic -6, Offensive - 5, Defensive - 6, entrencher, master driller, gifted commander.

[PhilThib]

That makes him as "good" as R.E. Lee

[Spharv2]

Yeah, I think the ratings need to be explained a bit before we get too far into this. Perhaps in a sticky? I get the feeling there are going to be a lot of 6s thrown out because a six point scale seems so odd.

[Chris0827]

Yeah, I think the ratings need to be explained a bit before we get too far into this. Perhaps in a sticky? I get the feeling there are going to be a lot of 6s thrown out because a six point scale seems so odd.

I'm not one to throw high ratings on a lot of commanders. Cleburne was superb. On reflection I'd lower his strategic rating a point but he definately deserves the 6 for defense. As far as I can tell his division was never driven from a defensive position.

[mike1962]

I would have to second Chris0827. Giving Cleburne a 5 offense and 6 defense.
I believe if he had fought in Virginia his name would be much better known.

[Korrigan]

200 CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne $Entrencher $Master_Driller $Gifted commander NULL 3 3 1 27 General 1 NULL 5 5 6

[Pocus]

updating the sticky thread right now

[Korrigan]

200 CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne $Gifted_Cmd $Entrencher NULL NULL 3 3 1 27 General 1 NULL 5 3 6

I think he should have a Corps commander promotion available.

[Chris0827]

He should've gotten a corps command but his support for arming slaves prevented it. Is there a way to have an event that covers this? Cleburne can be promoted to corps command but at a cost in confederate morale?

[Korrigan]

CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne2 $Dispirited_leader $Entrencher NULL NULL 3 3 2 27 General 1 NULL 5 3 6
200 CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne $Gifted_Cmd $Entrencher NULL NULL 3 3 1 27 General 1 NULL 5 3 6

[Chris0827]

Dispirited leader? What evidence is there for that?

[nytram01]

CSA Patrick Cleburne ldr_CSA_Cleburne2 $Dispirited_leader $Entrencher NULL NULL 3 3 2 27 General 1 NULL 5 3 6

Why does Cleburne get the dispirited leader thing? I dont understand that.

[tagwyn]

Rating as a "dispirited" leader? He was not trusted by the slave owners!! t

[nytram01]

Rating as a "dispirited" leader? He was not trusted by the slave owners!! t

Still not really fair to him is it? The definition of DISPIRITED LEADER as according to this site is "This commander is absolutely not charismatic for his men, or is defeatist. -5 maximum cohesion to the stack if commander, -25% cohesion recovery rate" and none of that can really be attributed to Pat Cleburne. There should be an distrusted attribute or something, that might fit him but dispirited leader doesn't really seem to go with Cleburne.

[slimey.rock]

Still not really fair to him is it? The definition of DISPIRITED LEADER as according to this site is "This commander is absolutely not charismatic for his men, or is defeatist. -5 maximum cohesion to the stack if commander, -25% cohesion recovery rate" and none of that can really be attributed to Pat Cleburne. There should be an distrusted attribute or something, that might fit him but dispirited leader doesn't really seem to go with Cleburne.

+1

[Colonel Dreux]

Yeah, I moded the dispirited leader trait out of him.

[Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne]

I approve and agree with my stats.

On the other hand, I should show up before December 62. I was a brigadier during Shiloh/Perryville after all. I was promoted to Major General in December though. (I know the game is legacy, just something to keep in mind for the next one!)

[woodcojb]

If looking to weaken Cleburne at Corps without hurting him, you could consider Poor Spy Network. Slaveholders might have been stingier on intel but his troops would still be loyal.