Combining units....please help me understand

[Banks6060]

Alright....I need you guys to give me the "low down" on how I combine units together.

What are the rules dictating these combinations.....when can I?....when can't I?

When can a brigade officially have a single unit element combined with it?

I'm still VERY confused about this so if anyone has anything they could offer I'd really like the help. Thanks ahead of time.

[arsan]

Hi!

Somebody posted a very comprehensive list of all this combinations... but i don't remember who exactly
Probably Jabberwork... or Coregonas.
There is a bunch of cases, particularly for the union.
Now, IMHO, with the exception of the milita+militia combination all the rest are basically mistakes or quirks or little bugs on the models database.
Not intended design decisions based on historical reasons.

Regards!

[Rafiki]

My money would be on Jabber; he seems to have a very good overview of what can and cannot be combined

EDIT: Indeed

[Banks6060]

Holy crap....wow. Looks like there are a few kinks in the game that need ironing when it comes to this combining thing.

Honestly, I think the whole thing should maybe be adjusted to where you can merge anyone with anyone. It'd make it a whole hell of a lot easier to manage.

Why was this not explored originally? Because people would never buy regular brigades as a result?

[pepe4158]

huh?

[Jabberwock]

Many units can be combined into larger brigades in the same way that two volunteer or militia units can be combined or the way that units can be added to divisions. The unit definitions in the database can each hold a predefined number of models (regiments or leaders) of predefined types. Some units have more slots than the number of regiments that they start with. Those can have other units added. Most units have a slot for a leader. Most volunteer and militia units have two militia slots, thats why they can be combined. You can read more about the possible combinations in this post. I believe there may have been some changes between 1.09 and 1.10b, but I haven't gone looking for them.

Thank you, Rafiki - for finding that again. I had no idea where it was.

[Rafiki]

Thank you, Rafiki - for finding that again. I had no idea where it was.

Always happy to use my awesome forum superpowers for Good

Can I persuade you to update the overview? If you do, I'll make a wiki page out of it.

[SIZE="2"](Work on the wiki has been too dormant for too long; need to pick up the pace on it; this could be a good start for that )[/size]

[Banks6060]

Honestly, all of those combination deals are just a little TOO detailed and overwhelming for a guy like me. I've thought streamlining that whole process could be beneficial.

I just don't think the average shmoe will even worry about any of that. And its affect on the game is SO small, you wonder if it's even neccessary? Other than combining militia regiments....I think it's rather useless.

[Jabberwock]

Some of the combinations are for obscure units that will rarely be seen, much less have a chance to be brigaded. However, some are incredibly useful. I will try to add some strategic tips for a few entries when I update.

[Coregonas]

Beware of those Zouave/Marine combos Jabber is preparing for landings in our sacred land!.

[Jabberwock]

Bewhere? I use them mostly for hit and run attacks. ... and then they appear someplace else (halfway across the map) a few turns later. I'm not sure how Andrew or Johnny will want to use them.

[arsan]

Honestly, all of those combination deals are just a little TOO detailed and overwhelming for a guy like me. I've thought streamlining that whole process could be beneficial.

I just don't think the average shmoe will even worry about any of that. And its affect on the game is SO small, you wonder if it's even neccessary? Other than combining militia regiments....I think it's rather useless.

As i said before, IMHO except the militias and some partially depleted ship units, the rest are nothing more the little bugs than can only be properly used/exploited by a handful of gamey experts like jabber
the rest of us simple players can safely forget about all this with little effect on the game results and enjoyment,
Just my two cents

[GShock]

This stuff should retrofit the 101 run did.

[Coregonas]

The effect of combination is not SMALL.
It is gameytricky VERY useful

Just the basic combo: 2x Militias

Every state has a limited number of militia SLOTS (i.e Virginia has, for example 12 militia units for purchase)

Once recombined into 6 2-militia brigades, the Engine FREES 6 EXTRA SLOTS.

So you can buy another 6 extra militias.

And... those 6 into another 3 2militia a couple turns after.

So you can end having 24 militia elements (12 brigades) instead of 12 militia elements.

[Banks6060]

The effect of combination is not SMALL.
It is gameytricky VERY useful

Just the basic combo: 2x Militias

Every state has a limited number of militia SLOTS (i.e Virginia has, for example 12 militia units for purchase)

Once recombined into 6 2-militia brigades, the Engine FREES 6 EXTRA SLOTS.

So you can buy another 6 extra militias.

And... those 6 into another 3 2militia a couple turns after.

So you can end having 24 militia elements (12 brigades) instead of 12 militia elements.

Well I think the militia combos are certainly useful...because once they upgrade they can actually serve as decently sized frontline brigade.

However I did not recognize the little added bonus you mentioned there.

I've never been one to like all the little gamey technical stuff...it's makes it too much more of a "game"...and less of an "experience" for me. Maybe I'm just ol' fashioned though. apy:

[Coregonas]

Well

You have 24 elements (COST 24x7) 168 conscript points

Instead of 17 elements (regulars)

That is 1,5 divisions instead of 1 division.

Check what can you do with all those 1000+ conscript points a year can give

[Banks6060]

Indeed...it's just, I dunno. Taking advantage of the system in a way....like you said....gamey. I don't prefer to play that way. But that's just me.

I think if people wanted to do that more....militia should cost 2 WS on top of what they already cost. I think there are a lot of people that do what Coregonas is talking about.

[Brochgale]

Bewhere? I use them mostly for hit and run attacks. ... and then they appear someplace else (halfway across the map) a few turns later. I'm not sure how Andrew or Johnny will want to use them.

eek another lot of badly dressed marines or badly dressed infantry? Marines with a Fez on - how could anyone bring themselves to shoot such an apparition?

[Jabberwock]

All those Volunteer/Light Brigades the Union starts with can have another volunteers/militia regiment added. There are about 8-9 of them across the map (depending on scenario). So they become better brigades, and you have that many more militia reinforcements available. This is a low priority one for me, though. I believe you get some of the militia reinforcements as soon as the regiments upgrade, anyway.

[Jabberwock]

This stuff should retrofit the 101 run did.

Yes, I would like to add to his 101, but not while the GC is in its early stages. As he said, "don't teach at the table". Ignoring that precept was how he got his first loss.

This stuff can stay separate from strategy 101, it falls more under the category of OOB analysis.

BTW - GC guys, take any public comments I make about my own strategy/operations with a grain of salt. Confused yet?

[Jabberwock]

eek another lot of badly dressed marines or badly dressed infantry? Marines with a Fez on - how could anyone bring themselves to shoot such an apparition?

I don't care if the sailors want to wear their poofy pants in public, as long as they still do their job.

[Banks6060]

Yes, I would like to add to his 101, but not while the GC is in its early stages. As he said, "don't teach at the table". Ignoring that precept was how he got his first loss.

This stuff can stay separate from strategy 101, it falls more under the category of OOB analysis.

BTW - GC guys, take any public comments I make about my own strategy/operations with a grain of salt. Confused yet?

Yes.... I'm absolutely spinning right now

But I aint scurrrred!

[Coregonas]

Another little tricky thing. These are the advantages of math & simulations.

Consider a Brigade lacking a artillery slot.
You can get it replaced by 2 ways

- Purchasing a replacement slot (and hope it gets to the brigade we want)
- Purchasing a new unit, send it to the brigade I want, and MERGE.

In the first case, the cost is going to be the basic Replacement cost (An average on the several artillery types)

In the second you are going to pay the exact arty you want to buy (i.e. the cheapest if you are in need) -> This is a small contribution in the BIG NUMBERS, but each $ counts!

The same goes for cavalry (purchasing conscripts); infantry (purchasing militias, just wait until raise to conscripts); and so on.

You can consider using this just as the difference between a GOOD administrator and an AVERAGE one (in real world that is a big difference). A WAR is WON not by the generals, but for the "economics".

We are not playing a WAR simulation, but and STRATEGIC one.

Must be the system changed to avoid totally getting the max from your scarce resources.??? I feel NO! If you can not do these things, whats the interest in the reinforcements? JUST BUY ELITES, COLUMBIADS AND THE SUCH.

[Banks6060]

Another little tricky thing. These are the advantages of math & simulations.

Consider a Brigade lacking a artillery slot.
You can get it replaced by 2 ways

- Purchasing a replacement slot (and hope it gets to the brigade we want)
- Purchasing a new unit, send it to the brigade I want, and MERGE.

In the first case, the cost is going to be the basic Replacement cost (An average on the several artillery types)

In the second you are going to pay the exact arty you want to buy (i.e. the cheapest if you are in need) -> This is a small contribution in the BIG NUMBERS, but each $ counts!

The same goes for cavalry (purchasing conscripts); infantry (purchasing militias, just wait until raise to conscripts); and so on.

You can consider using this just as the difference between a GOOD administrator and an AVERAGE one (in real world that is a big difference). A WAR is WON not by the generals, but for the "economics".

We are not playing a WAR simulation, but and STRATEGIC one.

Must be the system changed to avoid totally getting the max from your scarce resources.??? I feel NO! If you can not do these things, whats the interest in the reinforcements? JUST BUY ELITES, COLUMBIADS AND THE SUCH.

You make a good argument. And I agree about the artillery placement. But Marines with Zouaves? c'mon....that's just straight out gamey and you know it. It's taking advantage of a bug.

[Jabberwock]

You make a good argument. And I agree about the artillery placement. But Marines with Zouaves? c'mon....that's just straight out gamey and you know it. It's taking advantage of a bug.

It's not marines with zouaves. It's marines with elites (of which there are only two single regiments available), sailors with zouaves (or regulars, or upgraded militia). I like the idea of using zouaves as specialized amphibious assault troops ... the ones you call in when the other guys just can't cut it. As a practical matter, their uniforms (short jacket, pantaloons) would have been more appropriate for service in the deep south and coastal areas. Sashes make great improvised ropes for going over walls and other obstacles. It makes more sense to me than using marines to guard embassies, or using the Secret Service to go after counterfeiters.

[Jabberwock]

These are the advantages of math & simulations.

Do the big math problem. Then surrender.

In the second you are going to pay the exact arty you want to buy (i.e. the cheapest if you are in need) -> This is a small contribution in the BIG NUMBERS, but each $ counts!

The same goes for cavalry (purchasing conscripts); infantry (purchasing militias, just wait until raise to conscripts); and so on.

You can consider using this just as the difference between a GOOD administrator and an AVERAGE one (in real world that is a big difference). A WAR is WON not by the generals, but for the "economics".

That is true to a certain extent. I win by looking for the optimal response to every opportunity I can find, whether it is political, doctrinal, administrative, economic, logistical, strategic, operational, or tactical. This is just as much a game of logistics and administration as operations (otherwise the GC would best be played by four players).

I'm sure my generals (and the audience) think I'm a j@(&@$$! sometimes for sticking my nose deep into their departments looking for the small contributions. I don't let that bother me too much. Those little contributions step up the operational schedule, making strategic moves possible before the enemy can compensate. My biggest obstacle is trying to communicate those concerns in historical, rather than game terms. As my CinCs are discovering the kinds of things I'm looking for, I'm feeling the need to do it less and less.

[Banks6060]

It's not marines with zouaves. It's marines with elites (of which there are only two single regiments available), sailors with zouaves (or regulars, or upgraded militia). I like the idea of using zouaves as specialized amphibious assault troops ... the ones you call in when the other guys just can't cut it. As a practical matter, their uniforms (short jacket, pantaloons) would have been more appropriate for service in the deep south and coastal areas. Sashes make great improvised ropes for going over walls and other obstacles. It makes more sense to me than using marines to guard embassies, or using the Secret Service to go after counterfeiters.

lol...you're rationale is laughable. But whatever dude. Either way you slice it...you're taking advantage of historical deficiencies in the game. Which you're entitled to do. And which I'm entitled to think is annoying beyond all possibility. Regarding the GC....you're tricks will be dealt with in turn

[Jabberwock]

I was pushing it too far with the sashes thing ... but I think the rest makes sense. Do you have a better doctrine for zouaves?

[Banks6060]

I was pushing it too far with the sashes thing ... but I think the rest makes sense. Do you have a better doctrine for zouaves?

Certainly not that creative

I'd just use them to help boost a division's infantry element load. nothing else really. If you're talkin' in game usage.

Don't get me wrong Jab...you're a hell of a player. You just have a much different style of play than I. One which is certainly entertaining to be learning about at the present time.

and sometimes a little exhausting

It's certainly going to need to be figured out that's for sure. My hat's off to you man