AACW v. VG The Civil War

[Mr Dimbleby]

Hi....I'm new, so this may have already been covered before.

I've noticed a lot of similarities between AACW and the old table-top wargame "The Civil War" by Victory Games. Does anyone know if AACW was based in part on "The Civil War"?

[caranorn]

Heh, my first question about BoA was somewhat along those lines (just a lot ruder). Now that a year has gone by I'd hazard to say that resemblances between VG's Civil War and AGEOD's ACW are no more then one would expect in a game treating about the same conflict at a similar scale. Though I'm sure the designers and many of the betas knew VG's Civil War.

[Wilhammer]

The designers have expressed strong affection for VG's Civil War.

[pasternakski]

There are similarities, to be sure, but the games are vastly different:

In VG's game, you get:

-hexes, quarterly turns (that may end quickly or go on for a long time - you never know for sure how many chances at greatness or disaster you will have in a turn), and "generic" strength points.
-combat results that are locked in on fairly equal losses, particularly in major battles.
-completely abstract handling of the blockade.
-specifically quantified terrain effects on movement (man, a few convenient tables of this kind as player aids sure would be welcome for BoA and AACW...)
-far different handling of the far west theater.
-a game system based on "command points" and turn-by-turn assignment of priorities among the three war theaters (one of the most brilliant design features I have ever seen in a board wargame).
-a leader system (including uncertain entry) that leaves you marveling at its elegance and simple utility once you learn it (going into it at length here would be silly, but just let me say that each leader has exactly three ratings - not including his rank and seniority - the interaction of which drive all of the combat, movement, and initiative dynamics in the game).

If you can come up with a copy, I highly recommend it, even if all you want to do is just read and admire the d@mned thing. It's absolutely the greatest - I think...

[Pocus]

Yes, like all ACW fans we played and own the game.
However, as caranorn says, any similarities would be because both games are on the same subject.

[Korrigan]

Mr Dimbleby,

Did you play Birth of America? Because, if AACW has similarities with a game,that would be with this one...

AACW and BoA have been developed with AGE, the AGEOD game engine. AGE was conceived by Philippe and Philippe who both have an extensive experience in gaming. Philippe for example (I let you guess which one) was the man who designed Europa Universalis (EU1, EU2 and the board game).

So it's no wonder that you may feel somehow a "board game" feeling. This was done on purpose, as all of the AGEOD team have been playing board games for years before computers arrived, and now we are trying to recreate the same pleasure we had playing them. We just took out all the constraints (including the one including the locking up of the "Terrible Arch Enemies of Board games" (cats and little sisters)) and we focus on the game play.

FYI, monthes ago a personn tried to flame us by accusing the BoA engine to be a copy of "We the people". Now, you find the same engine to have similarities with "The Civil War"... well, I guess if we were to produce a game WWII some one would find similarities with World in Flame... C'est la vie!

As Pasternaski put it flatly, the very bases of the two games design are different. And it comes to no surprise as AACW is an evolution of BoA. However, the fact that you imagine AACW as a computer equal to "The ACW" is a real compliment of us. Thanks!

Best regards,

Korrigan

[caranorn]

Unless there were two people to blurt out an imagined similarity between BoA and AH's We the People, I did not flame or try to flame AGEOD at the time;-). It was just a stupid little reflex and annoyance how in the past some wannabe computer game designers would copy entire board games and claim them as their own computer games... Obviously I found out that was not the case here, and if I had used my brain I would have noticed that long before I'd blurted out that question here on the forums:-).

[Pocus]

no this was not you, and we spoke in private within Matrix mail system, this person and I and the issue is cleared. He admitted it was not the truth, and we parted friends

[John_C]

I loved VG Civil War, and still have it in a cupboard (together with other classics such as War and Peace by AH).

Civil Wars Rules were so well written and designed, the map was so beautiful for its time. The only drawback I do remember is that the last times I played it really seemed unbalanced for the South. Those Command points (I think they were called) really slowed things down and they could hardly move. Not that the North could do much either, but at least they had two leaders that needed few CP (Grant and Sherman) versus the South's only Lee. Very frustrating.

[Mr Dimbleby]

So the answer is "no" then.

...and no I have not played BoA, I purchased AACW because it reminded me of VG CW. The last time someone tried to make a comprable game from what I remember was The Civil War by Sierra back in the mid-90s, it was not fun, it was the anti-fun. Glad to see that AACW is very fun, it's supra-fun.

[razorbackjac]

I loved VG Civil War, and still have it in a cupboard (together with other classics such as War and Peace by AH).

Civil Wars Rules were so well written and designed, the map was so beautiful for its time. The only drawback I do remember is that the last times I played it really seemed unbalanced for the South. Those Command points (I think they were called) really slowed things down and they could hardly move. Not that the North could do much either, but at least they had two leaders that needed few CP (Grant and Sherman) versus the South's only Lee. Very frustrating.

If you lost a good leader like Grant or lets say Lee, it really hurt your planning and movement to amount a major campaign.

[Carrington]

Unless there were two people to blurt out an imagined similarity between BoA and AH's We the People, I did not flame or try to flame AGEOD at the time;-). It was just a stupid little reflex and annoyance how in the past some wannabe computer game designers would copy entire board games and claim them as their own computer games... Obviously I found out that was not the case here, and if I had used my brain I would have noticed that long before I'd blurted out that question here on the forums:-).

Frankly, I'm not so sure this is a bad thing: there's a reason why recent board-games can be quite good -- they've been copying each other for a while.

AH/GMT's For the People (FTP) is a very popular design on the Civil War which borrows a lot of concepts from VG's Civil War. In turn, GMT's Paths of Glory borrowed a great amount from FTP... and it is probably one of my favorite games in a long career of wargaming.

One could do much, much worse than a straight port.... (though it's a little murky what exactly is intellectual property in a game design).

One problem, of course, is that there are a lot of wannabe computer programmers, and a lot of wannabe game designers (in boardgaming, I'm increasingly suspicious that it's only game designers left, and no players), and then worst of all, wannabe computer programmer/game designers.... The field of computer wargaming is strewn with the wreckage of a good games that failed due to bad programming, bad games with good programming, and etc.

The fact that AGEOD is aware of, and influenced by the old classics is a good thing.

[Charleson]

Well, since we're talking about boardgames, I'll hijack this topic and ask if anyone has played Eagle Games' The American Civil War?

see: http://www.eaglegames.net/products/ACW/acw_resources.shtml

I'm intrigued with it since it has a graded scale of rule complexity. I can usually get my kids and nephews interested in a board game if it runs around the complexity of say, Settlers of Catan--however, anything much more complicated is generally a bust.

Thanks.

[Stonewall]

Boardgaming is alive and well, you just have to know where to find opponents. The internet is a wonderful thing in this regard. No more having to get 3 or 4 people over to your house for a full weekend of non-stop wargaming.

[Carrington]

There are a number of utilities that port boardgames directly onto the internet -- the Vassal/VASL Java app and dedicated servers are a great example.