Jekolmy
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Fleets suffering wear and tear for no apparent reason

Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:14 pm

Hi,

Playing as the USA '61 Scenario w.Kentucky in early June various ships begin to become unlocked. I tend to play with the 75% boxes rule. Anyway I'm moving the Atlantic Fleet squadron out from New York harbor (no merging or unmerging of units) and along the way to the blockade/shipping boxes they take constant hits from "exhaustion or wear and tear" Each ship appears to be fully supplied, yet I am loosing men and guns aboard ship and I cannot tell why. Has anyone else encountered this? Thanks.

EDIT:

Playing most recent patch and no enemy action reported.

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lodilefty
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:49 pm

Could be the weather, or you could have Advanced Attrition on.
All movement will cause cohesion loss in any case.

Most recent patch or most recent beta patch?
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Jekolmy
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:55 pm

I realized after I posted this that I was not playing the most recent patch it was something like RC8 or RC9. I've now updated to RC10 and haven't played much with it yet. I didn't think about weather though, it does make sense now. Thanks.

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Doomwalker
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:24 pm

lodilefty wrote:Could be the weather, or you could have Advanced Attrition on.
All movement will cause cohesion loss in any case.

Most recent patch or most recent beta patch?


Is the Advanced Attrition, the Historical Attrition setting? If so I did not realize it would cause this much damage. I am on RC10a and my blockade fleets took in excess of 30 points damage on return from port to blockade box. Weather was clear.
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Philippe
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Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:55 pm

I hope we all agree that it goes without saying that ships should suffer some crew attrition just from being at sea. And it probably shouldn't have much to do with whether they move or not. You don't come down with scurvy any faster just because the ship is moving. But by the same token you don't not come down with scurvy if the ship isn't moving (I don't think they used supply tenders in those days).

Troops will get sick from the cramped conditions, and improperly stored cannons will get damaged when the ship rolls and cargo shifts.

But you probably shouldn't lose at the same rate as when your troops are humping it overland, wearing out their shoes and getting lost scavenging for food, or losing cannon by having axles break when caissons drive off the road into ditches.

What exactly is the difference between land and sea attrition ?

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Captain_Orso
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:17 pm

I have to agree with you Philippe, Shelbey Foote describes how the blockaders before Charleston were low on morale because of being bored from inactivity and that their rations were lacking in quality greatly, which made matters all the worse.

But these blockade fleets are actually represented by the ships in the Blockade Boxes and from experience with the latest beta patches I can say that in poor to bad weather it takes a lot of management to keep them in supply and repair. I've actually found that I need 8 transport squadrons (combined to 4 transport fleets of 4 ships each) to assure that the Blockade Boxes (with 5 Blockade Fleets each) are in supply. And when bad weather hits even this is sometimes not enough, especially because the time it takes for the transports to shuttle between harbor and the Blockade goes up at times very greatly.

I'm used to having to build additional blockade fleets at some time during the war so that I can send one into harbor for repairs while still maintaining a full blockade. Maybe my current game has run into an extreme situation, but in mid-62 I'm already contemplating starting to build these replacement blockade fleets which I usually only have to do in '63 or '64.

I also feel that the amount of 'damage' occurring while fleets are actually sailing at see has become a bit extreme. Especially since much of the damage is occurring in coastal waters. Now I have no real information about shipping being more susceptible to damage, maybe through running aground in shallows, but I can't actually think of any reason other than that why ships would take more damage sailing into or out of harbor than in open sea. In fact I would expect it to be the other way around as sailing into New York or Charleston or New Orleans you are actually more protected from heavy seas than when you are out on the open sea where there is nothing to lessen the affects of weather.

The worse situation to me is that it once you put your fleet to sea and start getting those abominable log messages that your fleet has taken 2 or so hits due to weather in every or every other sea region they sail through, sometimes multiple times in one region in bad weather, you know that your fleet will be sitting in harbor later trying to get that damage repaired at 1 hit per turn on each ship. For a steam frigate that has 20 hit points, losing half of them can go pretty quickly if you are at sea for more than a turn or two, especially if you have the bad luck of running into a storm, which means that those ships will be laid up in harbor for nearly a half a year before they are fully sea worthy again.

This means that to have an effective fleet ready for action at all times you actually need at least 2 complete, comparable fleets; one ready to go to sea and one in repairs. And this is immensely expensive.

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Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:37 pm

This is a great discussion. Going back to the game mechanics on blockading, has anyone noticed that you have to actually blockade the specific water region in front of the major harbour to blockade the harbour. For example, in NO and Charlestown, one has to put the blockade fleet past the forts to get the blockade icon for NO or Charlestown. This isn’t the way blockading happened in the actual war, but for the game, is this WAD? Or am I just wrong on this?

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Longshanks
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Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:08 pm

charlesonmission wrote:This is a great discussion. Going back to the game mechanics on blockading, has anyone noticed that you have to actually blockade the specific water region in front of the major harbour to blockade the harbour. For example, in NO and Charlestown, one has to put the blockade fleet past the forts to get the blockade icon for NO or Charlestown. This isn’t the way blockading happened in the actual war, but for the game, is this WAD? Or am I just wrong on this?


You're right, sort of. You must put blockade ships in every region to which the harbor has access (which you can see by inspecting the tee-tiny blue water in the city itself). Charleston SC says "Charles River," but you will note there are TWO regions named "Charles River" and so you have to blockade them both. Blocking Charleston Bay doesn't work.

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Jim-NC
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Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:42 pm

charlesonmission wrote:This is a great discussion. Going back to the game mechanics on blockading, has anyone noticed that you have to actually blockade the specific water region in front of the major harbour to blockade the harbour. For example, in NO and Charlestown, one has to put the blockade fleet past the forts to get the blockade icon for NO or Charlestown. This isn’t the way blockading happened in the actual war, but for the game, is this WAD? Or am I just wrong on this?


It's a WAD. The game engine only accounts for the area next to the harbor. (as posted by Longshanks - you have to look at the harbor to know what to blockade). So to blockade Richmond, you have to get in the water right next to it. (you can't blockade it by having ships next to Ft. Monroe for example).
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Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:51 pm

Charleston SC says "Charles River," but you will note there are TWO regions named "Charles River" and so you have to blockade them both. Blocking Charleston Bay doesn't work.


I see only a region with this name and the city harbor exit point is only Charles River (yes there is a brown line between Charleston and Moultrie but if you hover the mouse on it both are highlighted).
The three Forts defend this area and not Charleston Bay, I think...

I also feel that the amount of 'damage' occurring while fleets are actually sailing at see has become a bit extreme.


During my tournament game my fleet after fought a battle near Cairo withdraw in Island 10 and then to Memphis (two turns), all my ironclads were hits by bad weather and they lost all strengh and cohesion factors, all!
Strangely my gunboats were still in good shape, yes some damages but not depleted.
In fact I lost my Mississippi fleet for months...

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Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:54 am

Blind Sniper wrote:I see only a region with this name and the city harbor exit point is only Charles River (yes there is a brown line between Charleston and Moultrie but if you hover the mouse on it both are highlighted).
The three Forts defend this area and not Charleston Bay, I think...


The brown line might be a left over from some old changes. Yes, the water both above and below the brown line is one river region: Charleston River (region ID# 1151) per tool-tip.

Charleston's exit point is Charles River only. The forts all have Charles River and Charleston Bay.

Blind Sniper wrote:During my tournament game my fleet after fought a battle near Cairo withdraw in Island 10 and then to Memphis (two turns), all my ironclads were hits by bad weather and they lost all strengh and cohesion factors, all!
Strangely my gunboats were still in good shape, yes some damages but not depleted.
In fact I lost my Mississippi fleet for months...


Ironclad seem to lose cohesion very quickly, and once they do they start taking hits at every opportunity. This makes them very short range vessels; unless you want to FaF (Fire and Forget) :( .

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Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:07 pm

Wad or not, I'm finding it rather frustrating to have to constantly micro-manage and shuttle all of my ships back and forth to harbors as they take, in my my view, way too many hits just for sailing anywhere. After just a few turns my brown water ships are down to nothing. Time of year doesn't seem to make much difference.

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Longshanks
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Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:10 am

bk6583 wrote:Wad or not, I'm finding it rather frustrating to have to constantly micro-manage and shuttle all of my ships back and forth to harbors as they take, in my my view, way too many hits just for sailing anywhere. After just a few turns my brown water ships are down to nothing. Time of year doesn't seem to make much difference.


1. try sailing in Green/Green mode.
2. make sure you have a supply ship (transport, brig, etc) with them - esp. if you're at sea more than one turn
3. change the settings for Blockade Box ships to reduce maintenance issues (at least for ships that are in the box).
4. Do not stay in attack mode (orange/anything) as this wears down cohesion
5. do not bombard and make sure the setting for bombard is off.
6. stay in port during winter.

let me know how these work out for you!

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Thu Feb 02, 2012 12:28 am

:blink: You apparently have never shuttled fleets in and out of the boxes in during the spring and fall storms ;)

I don't use it, but there is a settings to reduce micro-management of the fleets under Options - Game. If selected naval units in the boxes don't use supply nor lose cohesion. But there is a loss to how affective ships in the boxes are; 50, 66 or 75% their normal effectiveness, your choice of the setting.

But AFAIK this setting does not affect ships outside the boxes so Brown-Water Blockading is not changed, nor fleets actively patrolling other ocean, coastal or river regions.

It's simply a fact of life that fleets cannot be on station for unlimited lengths of time. They have to return to port to replenish provision, do repairs that cannot be done while on station or at sea/river at all; plus the crews need a well earned rest as well. Pulling duty seven days a week for extended periods of time will reduce the effectiveness of even the best crews.

Sorry, but there's not simple solution to keeping a Brown-Water Blockade afloat--pardon the pun :wacko: --without doing some work.

Edit: you must have heard me typing Longshanks ;)

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Chaplain Lovejoy
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Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:57 pm

Read an excerpt from a diary of a guy who served aboard a Monitor-class vessel. The sailor said he couldn't imagine why anybody in his right mind would volunteer for such duty. Very taxing physically due to the heat below deck, especially in summer.

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Longshanks
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Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:36 pm

Chaplain Lovejoy wrote:Read an excerpt from a diary of a guy who served aboard a Monitor-class vessel. The sailor said he couldn't imagine why anybody in his right mind would volunteer for such duty. Very taxing physically due to the heat below deck, especially in summer.


and yet.... they were all volunteers, and from men-of-war too! They were the submariners of their day.

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Pat "Stonewall" Cleburne
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:34 am

288 hits. I took 288 hits in 1 turn moving my blockade fleet from New York back to the box. That is roughly 25% of the total hits of the fleet. Musta caught a nor'easter or something.

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GraniteStater
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:03 am

Yikes!!!

Do I have the right patch? rc13c, right? I get hits, but not these numbers.

My approach? Don't close block sea regions with those nasty, nasty Fortses (nasty Fortses, made by those nasty Elves). Close block the free stuff (Bogue Inlet, for example. If you want, put blockers off Charleston, SC, for instance, just to catch runners - not a true blockade, but can be useful.

Then I run all my sail frigates with a brig or two, usually under Palmer, up and down the outermost coastal regions - fast and have a punch.

I put my blockade effort in the Boxes, with Blockede Fleets - expensive, but you can get up to 75% pretty quick, if you make the investment.

Build a good amount of Transports - don't leave port without them. Sometimes I have 25 TPs by mid '62, not including the original TPs in the Atlantic Box. TPs reduce wear and tear.
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charlesonmission
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:21 am

How many blockade fleets do you put in each box? I always though you needed a mix of boxes and actual harbours to get up to 75%.

Charles

GraniteStater wrote:Yikes!!!

Do I have the right patch? rc13c, right? I get hits, but not these numbers.

My approach? Don't close block sea regions with those nasty, nasty Fortses (nasty Fortses, made by those nasty Elves). Close block the free stuff (Bogue Inlet, for example. If you want, put blockers off Charleston, SC, for instance, just to catch runners - not a true blockade, but can be useful.

Then I run all my sail frigates with a brig or two, usually under Palmer, up and down the outermost coastal regions - fast and have a punch.

I put my blockade effort in the Boxes, with Blockede Fleets - expensive, but you can get up to 75% pretty quick, if you make the investment.

Build a good amount of Transports - don't leave port without them. Sometimes I have 25 TPs by mid '62, not including the original TPs in the Atlantic Box. TPs reduce wear and tear.

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Aphrodite Mae
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:23 am

bk6583 wrote:Wad or not, I'm finding it rather frustrating to have to constantly micro-manage and shuttle all of my ships back and forth to harbors as they take, in my my view, way too many hits just for sailing anywhere. After just a few turns my brown water ships are down to nothing. Time of year doesn't seem to make much difference.


AGEod has no greater fan than me. Even so, there are a few things in AGEod games that I think are vexing, and naval operations is one of them.

In my (truly) humble opinion, inordinate cohesion and strength loss for naval units is a common failing across many games: AACW, WiA, and PoN come readily to mind. I'm well aware of the effects of scurvy, boredom, rough weather, and the effects of limited supplies on naval crews and their ships; but I just can't reconcile the game effects with what I know about historic naval operations.

Blue water naval vessels would outfit themselves with rations and supplies that would last for many months. Furthermore, extended periods at sea didn't diminish a ship's readiness for battle; it increased it, through gunnery drills, replacing sails spars and rigging with new materials from the ship's stores, and so forth.

As for scurvy, wasn't it under control in the British Navy prior to the Napoleonic era? I've never heard of it being a problem with Union or Confederate navies. If anyone knows of any North American navy crews actually being affected by scurvy during the ACW, I would enjoy reading your citation! :)

Deep water Navies are supposed to provide a mobile projection of strength, right? But as the games are now, moving a fleet to a point just six weeks away results in your fleet arriving in a tattered condition, barely fit to fight. As GraniteStater pointed out, you can greatly mitigate this by moving in passive posture; but if you encounter and cannot evade a superior enemy force, you're probably going to regret your decision.

If there is damage due to storms, then there should be some sort of "bounce back" in the following turn, since the crew would have made repairs from ships store. But it would be simpler to just mitigate the effects of bad weather. As it is, it's just too crippling.

Based on what I've said here, I believe that the rate of cohesion loss among deep water vessels is probably triple of what it should realistically be, and strength loss is probably about double. I don't have an informed opinion about brownwater operations.

[SIZE="3"]I'd like to form a panel of "Naval Grognards" to examine this issue, and perhaps playtest mods with different cohesion and strength loss rates. The object would be to correlate historic data with game data, so that more realistic loss rates could be determined.[/size]

Who knows? This panel of salty sea grogs might even collaborate on a new navy-oriented scenario for AACW. In any event, if this idea comes to be, we could pass our findings on to the AACW Beta team. I'm confident that if we have solid research behind our recommendations, we'll see some changes made. And of course, it might be that I'm mistaken, and everything is already accurately portrayed. We'll see.

If you're interested in participating in this little project, please send me a PM with the subject line "Navy". Once we have a handful of modders and testers, we'll put our heads together, and see what happens. :)
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GraniteStater
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:12 am

charlesonmission wrote:How many blockade fleets do you put in each box? I always though you needed a mix of boxes and actual harbours to get up to 75%.

Charles


The short answer is, a good bunch. A BlkFlt is expensive, $80K, so you can't go nutty. In an Apr61 start, I'll put the NE & NY BlkFlts with the lone Gulf flotilla.

Then build TPs. You're not going to get overnight results, it takes months, at least a year, to get a solid 50%+ Box number, so take your time. Remember, you can have aircraft carriers out there, but the war is won or lost on land. You can't go navy happy and then wonder why the Rebs outnumber you in Virginia.

I would even say that a river fleet is a higher priority; as 'Shanks said to me once, you can't just be stronger than CSA river craft, you need to dominate the rivers. Play him, and by summer '62 you'll be tearing your hair out, he made my Cumbie and Tenn river area ops nigh impossible: can't reinforce, supply gets interdicted, cannonballs landing on your head from the creek while you're trying to fend off Thomas - not pretty.

I rarely build ocean craft other than TPs, six or eight BlkFlts, and the occasional Brig or two. The TPs are important, they really help with overall combat fatigue, are needed for seaborne ops, and you NEED to build Depots on the coast to attract the supply engine to your beachhead (unless you take one right away). Start in 1862, with Burnside on the beach in SC. Go do a buncha other stuff and come back in six weeks: Burnside is about to disappear, because Beafort has no Depot. Solution: build a Depot with two TP units. Straightens G4 right out.

The Blockade, in general, is a very useful adjunct and can be significant, really significant, but it takes until mid-war to really get going as a big factor. It takes time and commitment.

And remember, instead of all that, just build dedicated combined arms landing and expeditionary forces and instead of blockading Charleston - take it.

ADDENDUM

I don't like my nice watercraft to get near high velocity iron spheres. I hate Forts when afloat, they really, really ruin my day. That said, it's worth hunting for Jabberwock's comments on how he handled Forts. IIRC, it seemed to me he made some large and muscular fleets and cruised the coasts, wiping Forts out.

I think.

Oh, to be clear - I don't hesitate to assault New Orleans, though. Usually don't suffer too much and the prize is worth it. It's all cost/benefit. Getting your ships sunk just to lower the production of Savannah is not worth it, IMHO.
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Longshanks
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:56 pm

The Union's best weapon against taking damage from forts is Farragut and evade. Er, the two best weapons are Farragut, evade and G/G. Ummm, amongst the many weapons are Farragut, evade, G/G, and pushing all the stuffing up into the corner of the pillow.
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GraniteStater
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Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:30 pm

Those, and the Holy Hand Grenade.
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[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

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Chuske
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:34 pm

GraniteStater wrote:Those, and the Holy Hand Grenade.
Particularly handy if the forts have killer rabbits.... Just make sure you bring the book of armaments :mdr:
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Aphrodite Mae
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:06 pm

GraniteStater wrote:I don't like my nice watercraft to get near high velocity iron spheres. I hate Forts when afloat, they really, really ruin my day. That said, it's worth hunting for Jabberwock's comments on how he handled Forts. IIRC, it seemed to me he made some large and muscular fleets and cruised the coasts, wiping Forts out.

I think.


John's solution was to create a 6500+ power fleet (!!) and parade it by a soon-to-be-extinct fort. Here's a link to his thread Giving fort bombardment one more try. Be forewarned: the thread has been heavily edited with post deletions by a former coordinator.

Of course, John's solution was in the good ol' days, before Gray Lensman gave coastal artillery a ridiculously high protection value. He did so as a temporary work-around until Dixicrat could redesign the Coastal Artillery model. Dixi left the forums before he completed the design, and so Gray's temporary fix has endured, to become, uh, "canonical". :neener:

It would be interesting to playtest John's tactic to see how well it works today against Gray's reinforced-concrete-embedded super-guns.
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GraniteStater
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Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:07 pm

For the record, I was mistaken - it wasn't Jabberwock, it was Jarkko.

I talked to him yesterday on another forum and he just about stated that he thought his Massive Bwahaha Fleet most probably won't work anymore. He didn't mention anything about GL's work, but it's a good possibility the Ueberforten rule this out now - after all, Super Fleets require a hefty investment.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





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