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OneArmedMexican
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Oh Athena! - What is the dumbest move you have ever seen from the AI?

Fri Apr 29, 2011 4:22 pm

What was the worst blunder by Athena you have ever seen?

Here is one that knocked me out of my socks: :blink:

For the last month, I have been slowly playing through an ACW campaign ('61 with Kentucky events).

And then in the summer of 1863 I got to see the most stunningly stupid move, I have ever seen the Athena make.

In an all-out attack on Nashville basically Athena committed every possible mistake:
A. underestimating the enemy: I had retreated two corps from Kentucky a month earlier (supply problems + I wanted to keep my forces concentrated)
B. no reconnaissance: Athena had no way of knowing what I had sitting in the city. As it was to learn I had 90.000 men (the majority of my forces in the West, in ten divisions organized in two corps and an HQ stack), army commander was a certain Longstreet (with his insane defense value), the troops were well entrenched (level six) and had almost four hundred guns.
C. no coordinated movement: his five corps arrived one after the other over a span of eight days.
D. amphibious assault on a fortified position: three of those Union corps were sent via river transport
E. ignored fort: Fort Donelson wasn't taken first his amphibious assault forces passed the fort and got pounded by its guns on their way to Nashville

The result were three battles. Here are the casualties (Union first, then mine):
1) 13.000 - 300
2) 20.000 - 800
3) 35.000 - 1.000

Here is a screen of the last one:

[ATTACH]14938[/ATTACH]

I expect the onslaught to continue next turn, since one Union corps has yet to enter combat.

A disclaimer: I use a slightly modded version of ACW (inspired by RoP, I wrote some events that give the loosing side a massive boost in NM and ressources once its NM falls below a certain level. It makes for longer campaigns and goes a long way toward underlining the Norther superiority in manpower and industrial capacities).

Have you seen worse? Please share!
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Ethan
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Fri Apr 29, 2011 7:13 pm

That's what I call a well-planned attack!! :mdr: :mdr:

Certainly, sometimes I have seen big mistakes from AI, but I don't recall one as surprising as that. :blink:

If I see some striking mistake in upcoming games, I'll share it :thumbsup:

:wavey:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]

[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]

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Ethan
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:30 am

Hi One Armed Mexican! :)

With regard to the screen that you have uploaded, I would like to ask you some new screens, please. Can you upload any screen showing the position of your forces and enemy forces in the previous turn to the battle and other one with the situation after the battle? Thanks very much in advance! ;)

Ethan. :thumbsup:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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OneArmedMexican
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:11 am

I had to go a few turns back, but here you go:

[ATTACH]14944[/ATTACH]

As you can see there is a huge area in Kentucky where neither Athena nor me has anything. It is the result of me withdrawing in early May from Lexington and Bowling Green back to Nashville.

Besides what you can see, I had two div. in Arkansas and two more were busy attacking Cairo. Since it was only weakly protected, I had to take advantage. Forrest and some cavalry is moving to Fort Donelson.

The Union has four stacks concentrated at the Kentucky border. However only Foster the one in Muhlenburg attacked by land. The other stacks went via the river, as did a fifth stack that was hidden from me by FOW. Frankly, the attack took me by surprise. I remember that I was flabbergasted when I watched all those Union stacks shipping down the river. I am still wondering where Athena got the neceassy river transport capacities???

While I had decent intelligence due to military control in the Union's staging area for this assault. Athena has none in any region adjacent to Nashville. Even with a detection bonus to the AI, this attack must have been made completely blind. Athena just managed to hit the one place where I had concentrated my forces.

Also, I have to admit that I use tactics against Athena that would lead to disaster against a human. No cavalry/militia screen (it wasn't necessary since I had military control in the no man's land). No defensive line but rather one or two concentrated forces ready to strike back.
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caranorn
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:30 am

Athena tends to do deep raids in force. Though in this case the target is pretty close to the front line, but the forces involved in the attack indeed moved a longish distance.

Some examples I've seen when playing as the Union.

A multiple corps raid on Pittsburgh Pa. while the frontline went from the Sehnandoah to Fredericksburg. Pittsburgh temporarily in Confederate hands. I had to delay my 1863 offensive by several month to shuffle back half of my Army in Virginia to Pennsylvania. But all Confederate forces involved in the raid were eventually destroyed with great loss of leaders and NM. End result when I finally launched my delayed 1863 offensive I quickly took the Richmond area and won a decisive victory...

At the start of the 1861 campaign almost as soon as Confederate forces start to unfreeze, I notice their forces shifting towards Fort Monroe and expect an assault on the fort. I am well prepared for this eventuality (new forces started reinforcing Butler as soon as I could build them, others are still on the way (including the reinforcments for Pensacola bay which were supposed to stage via Monroe)). At first look this seems like a decent plan from the ai, but one that doesn't worry me for the moment. So I start taking northern Virginia unopposed. To my great astonishment, Fort Monroe is not assaulted by the combined Confederate Armies in Virginia, instead they board riverine transports under the guns of Monroe and my blockade fleets (remember Monroe is my staging point for operations to pensacola bay, so almost all Union shipping is concentrated there at this time), cross the Chesapeake and land at the southern tip of Delaware. I'm so astonished that I stop my game and take a look at the ai save game. It turns out that all Confederate forces in the Virginia area have orders to move to New York city! But all of that avoiding any cities that could be used as stageing bases. In the end I quit that game as it had no point, it was clear to me that this force would be greatly reduced by the time it'd reach NYC while I could easily shuffle back a defensive force by train. The game would probably have been over by early 1862 under those circumstances...
Marc aka Caran...

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Longshanks
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:41 am

Just finished a campaign against Athena. I was the USA, AI was the CSA. Settings mostly on normal.

Athena sent Jackson and Lee's army up to Pittsburg in the late summer of 62 in what I assumed was to be a deep raid. Lee and a large army parked on Pittsburg where I had hastily assembled what would eventually be a corps huddled inside, thanks largely to riverine reinforcements. Jackson sped across the river and took Steuvenville, Ohio. Lee had a Power of 1600+ and Jackson was somewhat reinforced. No way I could take them headon without stripping the fronts. So, I conceded Pittsburg would fall and that Lee might possibly split the Union, a la Vicksburg in reverse.

Then to my very great surprise they both just sat there. Through the entire winter, slowly attritting away, although it was very hard to see what they had in those stacks after the first couple of turns, even with cavalry probes. I guess Athena thought she would starve me out of Pittsburg. So, I sat there too, slowly building up corps after corps and blocking off the retreat path back to West Virgnia. Of course, I wasn't sitting on the other fronts, where, for example, I took Richmond defended by two brigades.

By Spring 63's decent weather, I hit Jackson first and wiped him out. To a man. I forgot to see if Jackson was killed, but he never showed up for the rest of the game. Finally, I summoned the courage to take Marse Robert head on. There was pitiful little left, and I kicked myself for not hitting sooner. Lee retreated east into the hills of PA, and then south, disappearing constantly. I lost him near the WV border.

As fate would have it, Sherman found Bobby Lee in Covington VA on the last turn of the game (late July 63), where his force wiped out all but 10 men of Lee's HQ. No word on the fate of General Lee.

I jumped from 162 morale to 206 morale that turn, thanks to huge battle wins (Athena also retook Nashville in another deep raid and conveniently placed nearly all the West's assets where Grant and 3 corps could easily reach them for complete destruction), and taking of Memphis, etc.

So Athena can be a grand ol' girl with a lot of "show and flare", but a bit stubborn and careless.

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Ethan
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 12:18 pm

Welcome to Ageod Forums Longshanks! :thumbsup:

Enjoy playing! ;) :coeurs:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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Ethan
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:07 pm

OneArmedMexican wrote:I had to go a few turns back, but here you go:

[ATTACH]14944[/ATTACH]

As you can see there is a huge area in Kentucky where neither Athena nor me has anything. It is the result of me withdrawing in early May from Lexington and Bowling Green back to Nashville.

Besides what you can see, I had two div. in Arkansas and two more were busy attacking Cairo. Since it was only weakly protected, I had to take advantage. Forrest and some cavalry is moving to Fort Donelson.

The Union has four stacks concentrated at the Kentucky border. However only Foster the one in Muhlenburg attacked by land. The other stacks went via the river, as did a fifth stack that was hidden from me by FOW. Frankly, the attack took me by surprise. I remember that I was flabbergasted when I watched all those Union stacks shipping down the river. I am still wondering where Athena got the neceassy river transport capacities???

While I had decent intelligence due to military control in the Union's staging area for this assault. Athena has none in any region adjacent to Nashville. Even with a detection bonus to the AI, this attack must have been made completely blind. Athena just managed to hit the one place where I had concentrated my forces.

Also, I have to admit that I use tactics against Athena that would lead to disaster against a human. No cavalry/militia screen (it wasn't necessary since I had military control in the no man's land). No defensive line but rather one or two concentrated forces ready to strike back.


Thank you very much, One Armed Mexican, I deeply appreciate the effort. Thanks again for to the picture and explanation! ;) :thumbsup:

Regards! :wavey:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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Ol' Choctaw
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:11 pm

I have seen the AI take chances with iffy attacks before. I have done it my self.

Most of the time it is worth the risk but some times it goes sideways.

In my current campaign it did some wild raids early on and settled down for a while.

It lost Forrest in an early raid to the Canadian Border from lack of supply.

The Army of the Potomac committed suicide in a raid from Fredericksburg to Troy, NY. It held the city for maybe three turns, if that before I swatted them.

Later it moved Lee to the West and he raided from Kentucky up the river to St. Louis, only to find that it was too much to tackle and ran back to Arkansas. At this point I don’t know if he is dead or in hiding.

But I think all in all that it is within the range of historical risks. The capture of New Orleans was a risk that paid off, wasn’t it?

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Ethan
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Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:25 pm

Ol' Choctaw wrote: But I think all in all that it is within the range of historical risks. The capture of New Orleans was a risk that paid off, wasn’t it?


You can be sure. I think it was the first crack to the Confederacy!

:thumbsup:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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Athena
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Sun May 01, 2011 11:28 am

I will have my revenge. If not in this life, then in the next!

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OneArmedMexican
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Sun May 01, 2011 1:06 pm

Athena wrote:I will have my revenge. If not in this life, then in the next!


It seems I have incurred the wrath of a godess. Time to sacrifice a lamb and beg for forgiveness.

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Ethan
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Sun May 01, 2011 1:59 pm

onearmedmexican wrote:it seems i have incurred the wrath of a godess. Time to sacrifice a lamb and beg for forgiveness.


:mdr: :mdr:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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Longshanks
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Sun May 01, 2011 2:01 pm

Athena wrote:I will have my revenge. If not in this life, then in the next!


Yeep!

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Ethan
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Sun May 01, 2011 3:33 pm

Athena wrote:I will have my revenge. If not in this life, then in the next!


Dear, admired and powerful Goddess Athena, let me suggest to you a satisfactory revenge: :sourcil:

In the next game against One Armed Mexican... Shred him mercilessly in 20 turns!! :niark:

;) :thumbsup:
[color="Navy"][font="Georgia"]"Mi grandeza no reside en no haber caído nunca, sino en haberme levantado siempre". Napoleón Bonaparte.[/font][/color]



[color="Blue"]Same Land. Different Dreams. - Photobook[/color]



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Ol' Choctaw
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Sun May 01, 2011 3:44 pm

OneArmedMexican wrote:It seems I have incurred the wrath of a godess. Time to sacrifice a lamb and beg for forgiveness.


The only deity more powerful than she was Zeus, and she was his favorite daughter. She did not like her temples to be defiled and she did not like to be forgotten. She liked people who were moral, shrewd, and industrious. She was sometimes swayed by gifts, but she preferred intellect and invention to the smell of burnt meat.


Also you may be able to win back her esteem buy poetry or perhaps winning the chariot race in the Great Panathenaea or doing well in the torch race.

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Jorje Vidrio
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Sat May 07, 2011 3:44 pm

This may be a newbie question, but how did the AI for this game get the nickname "Athena" ? :p ompom:

Was Athena the smartest of the Greek goddesses? Didn't she come from Zeus' brain [or something like that?] :niark:

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Ol' Choctaw
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Sat May 07, 2011 4:29 pm

As I understand it, Zeus swallowed her mother (Metis, wisdom or knowledge) to keep her form giving birth, because the prophecy said that any child borne of the union would be greater than Zeus.

Zeus had a splitting headache and then she burst full grown and fully armed from his forehead.

She wielded the Thunderbolt and the Aegis, which only she and Zeus could use, the thunderbolt that is. The Aegis was some sort of protective cloche.

She was goddess of Strategy and discipline among her other attributes.

Her brother Ares was god of the destructive aspects of war.

But I was not here for the naming of the AI, so someone else can tell us that.

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GraniteStater
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Mon May 09, 2011 1:30 am

Jorje Vidrio wrote:This may be a newbie question, but how did the AI for this game get the nickname "Athena" ? :p ompom:

Was Athena the smartest of the Greek goddesses? Didn't she come from Zeus' brain [or something like that?] :niark:


Goddess of war:

In Greek mythology Athena or Athene ( /əˈθiːnə/ or /əˈθiːniː/; Attic: Ἀθηνᾶ, Athēnā or Ἀθηναία, Athēnaia; Epic: Ἀθηναίη, Athēnaiē; Ionic: Ἀθήνη, Athēnē; Doric: Ἀθάνα, Athana), also referred to as Pallas Athena/Athene ( /ˈpæləs/; Παλλὰς Ἀθηνᾶ; Παλλὰς Ἀθήνη ;) , is the goddess of wisdom, civilization, warfare, strength, strategy, female arts, crafts, justice and skill.

- Wikipedia
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]
-Daniel Webster

[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]
-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898

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(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.
(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.


Image

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Cromagnonman
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Mon May 09, 2011 2:52 am

My "Athena's Funniest Home Videos" typically include Pittsburgh and/or Fort Monroe, sometimes Fort Pickens.
Even if she escapes those traps, though, I find her to be pretty reliable about putting all her troops inside cities, allowing them to be besieged and starved (along with their generals) en detail.
"firstest with the mostest"

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Pocus
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Mon May 09, 2011 7:44 am

Jorje Vidrio wrote:This may be a newbie question, but how did the AI for this game get the nickname "Athena" ? :p ompom:

Was Athena the smartest of the Greek goddesses? Didn't she come from Zeus' brain [or something like that?] :niark:


A name had to be choosen ;)

The engine used is called AGE, adaptive game engine, but also can be interpreted as Athena Game Engine. Why Athena? I like the name and it appeared fitting for an AI too. :neener:
Image


Hofstadter's Law: "It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's law."

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rsallen64
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Mon May 09, 2011 7:53 am

I've seen Athena go after Harrisburg early in the war with a substantial force, which withered on the vine for a lack of supplies. That's the worse, but, overall, I have to admit that for a while it did scare the bejesus out of me!
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GraniteStater
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Mon May 09, 2011 4:34 pm

Pocus wrote:A name had to be choosen ;)

The engine used is called AGE, adaptive game engine, but also can be interpreted as Athena Game Engine. Why Athena? I like the name and it appeared fitting for an AI too. :neener:


Besides, she's good looking.
[color="#AFEEEE"]"Liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable!"[/color]

-Daniel Webster



[color="#FFA07A"]"C'mon, boys, we got the damn Yankees on the run!"[/color]

-General Joseph Wheeler, US Army, serving at Santiago in 1898



RULES

(A) When in doubt, agree with Ace.

(B) Pull my reins up sharply when needed, for I am a spirited thoroughbred and forget to turn at the post sometimes.





Image

gekkoguy82
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Mon May 09, 2011 6:42 pm

rsallen64 wrote:I've seen Athena go after Harrisburg early in the war with a substantial force, which withered on the vine for a lack of supplies. That's the worse, but, overall, I have to admit that for a while it did scare the bejesus out of me!


+1

It can be quite disconcerting when you see her show up with a huge stack in your back yard all of a sudden. Even now, while expecting the obligatory doomed Pittsburgh expedition, my first thought when it actually happens is always "...crap!"

:neener:

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Chaplain Lovejoy
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Mon May 09, 2011 11:43 pm

gekkoguy82 wrote:+1

It can be quite disconcerting when you see her show up with a huge stack in your back yard all of a sudden. Even now, while expecting the obligatory doomed Pittsburgh expedition, my first thought when it actually happens is always "...crap!"

:neener:


As a US player, I'm always overjoyed when the CS invades my territory. Working on interior lines and (where applicable) with naval superiority, the US player should always be able to turn the CS invasion into a disaster.

gekkoguy82
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Tue May 10, 2011 1:46 pm

Chaplain Lovejoy wrote:As a US player, I'm always overjoyed when the CS invades my territory. Working on interior lines and (where applicable) with naval superiority, the US player should always be able to turn the CS invasion into a disaster.


oh I know it's a good thing, but I'm usually in the midst of preparing some grandiose offensive that I'll need to postpone until everyone north of the Potomac is mopped up. I suppose I'm not very good at the interior lines, everyone to the front!! :wacko:

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DooberGuy
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Wed May 11, 2011 10:35 pm

I had an amusing little Athena move, can't really call it a mistake... just strange.

Playing as the Confederates I was quite amused when my Indians rose up to take Fort Laramie only to find that it was defended by, you guessed it, the U.S. Cavalry. All 30,000 of them!

gekkoguy82
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Thu May 12, 2011 5:59 am

DooberGuy wrote:I had an amusing little Athena move, can't really call it a mistake... just strange.

Playing as the Confederates I was quite amused when my Indians rose up to take Fort Laramie only to find that it was defended by, you guessed it, the U.S. Cavalry. All 30,000 of them!


:mdr:

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Chaplain Lovejoy
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Fri May 13, 2011 1:16 am

gekkoguy82 wrote: I suppose I'm not very good at the interior lines, everyone to the front!! :wacko:


As the U.S., I like to keep a "rapid-response force" sitting on a rail line somewhere in Pennsylvania. It can move quickly to defend any of my very lightly defended cities nearby. They're lightly defended because "He who tries to be strong everywhere will be strong nowhere." (Sun Tzu?)

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hgilmer
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Fri May 13, 2011 1:24 am

Chaplain Lovejoy wrote:As the U.S., I like to keep a "rapid-response force" sitting on a rail line somewhere in Pennsylvania. It can move quickly to defend any of my very lightly defended cities nearby. They're lightly defended because "He who tries to be strong everywhere will be strong nowhere." (Sun Tzu?)



It was either Sun or his brother..... Ralph Tzu.

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