Frozen Rivers

[satisfaction]

Not sure if this is a vanilla AACW issue or just something I inherited. I'm playing Clovis mod, but that does not impact the main files when installed...has its' own folder within AACW. Figured I post this here and see if anyone else has seen this, or it is unique to my installation of the Clovis mod. The following is my post in that thread.

Frozen river issue. Playing 1.10d with latest download, both on clean installs. It seems that when rivers freeze they turn into fast ways to move land units...or they are the default method land units want to use when they move. This has resulted in CSA units hanging out in frozen rivers and moving around very rapidly. Also my gunboats are able to move through these frozen rivers, but they seem to not engage land units passing them. Not expecting any reply or news until after August 17....wish I was on vacation.

EDIT Believe I have found the problem in the terrain files. Below is the FreezeShallow terrain file for the condition "frozen"

{Frozen}
Ranger = 4
LitFoot = 5
MedFoot = 6
HvyFoot = 6
MedHorse = 7
MedHorse = 7
HvyHorse = 7
Wheeled = 7
Coastal = -1
Ocean = -1
Shallow = -1
AllWater = -1

Just for comparison I've put the clear terrain, condition "clear"

{Clear}
Ranger = 2
LitFoot = 2
MedFoot = 3
HvyFoot = 3
LitHorse = 1
MedHorse = 2
HvyHorse = 2
Wheeled = 3
Coastal = -999
Ocean = -999
Shallow = -999
AllWater = -999

Seems the frozen rivers are twice as easy to move on as clear open terrain. This is also true in the un modded folders, so I'll post in general forum too.

[soloswolf]

Ice skates?

I haven't seen this problem in any of my games. Hopefully the team can figure it out for you.

[Doomwalker]

{Frozen}
Coastal = -1
Ocean = -1
Shallow = -1
AllWater = -1

Just for comparison I've put the clear terrain, condition "clear"

{Clear}
Coastal = -999
Ocean = -999
Shallow = -999
AllWater = -999

I am wondering if these would not be what is causing the problem. The -999 looks like the way to keep troops off of water. I am not a guru on this or anything, but just from looking at it gives me that impression.

Then again I could be off in left field somewhere. Looking at the two list again it seems that the numbers for cav gets smaller in the clear list. I would still say that the -1 vs -999 has something to do with it though.

[satisfaction]

Well I know this is part of pure vanilla ACW and not related to Clovis mod. Installed in new path straight from CD and patched to 1.10d. The terrain file for shallow freezable rivers is:

{/Snow}
{Frozen}
Ranger = 3
LitFoot = 4
MedFoot = 5
HvyFoot = 5
MedHorse = 6
MedHorse = 6
HvyHorse = 6
Wheeled = 6
Coastal = -999
Ocean = -999
Shallow = -999
AllWater = -999

These value represent cost to move into the terrain. The following are the values for clear terrain under the same conditions.

{/Snow}
{Frozen}
Ranger = 6
LitFoot = 6
MedFoot = 6
HvyFoot = 7
LitHorse = 6
MedHorse = 6
HvyHorse = 7
Wheeled = 7
Coastal = -999
Ocean = -999
Shallow = -999
AllWater = -999

It is easier for land units to move on frozen rivers than over frozen clear terrain. This just doesn't sound right. I don't know of any cases in almost any war where units would prefer to move down frozen rivers instead of frozen clear land. This also means that when the movement path is being calculated the computer/AI will have their units use the rivers as they are the cheapest way to move. This has, in my last two games, resulted in the shallow rivers becoming winter railroads...I've actually had a fairly substantial land battle on the Ohio River! I believe that frozen rivers and ocean should not be used by any units, land or water. We know boats can't move in them and land units did not move from Cincinnati to Louisville by walking down the Ohio.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[satisfaction]

Interesting, didn't know that part....but had wondered about it. So the flaw is not in the .ter files (hence why my personal modding of it has not worked!) Well patience I've got, so I'll just kick back and spend some time with the family

One question though. If this does have to do with river crossing abilities (the .ter file) why does the value for clear weather and not frozen show values that are -999? and in some cases -1? Seems like that should be a positive number as well, albeit smaller than the winter numbers to represent easier crossing. Only a real beginner with modding so just trying to educate myself on the .ter files. Never dug into them before.

[Chaplain Lovejoy]

Interesting: "shallow rivers becoming winter railroads"! Russians did something vaguely similar at the siege of Leningrad, no? "Hey, you guys--put out that campfire!"

[Gray_Lensman]

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[satisfaction]

Great good info. Figured they served a similar function. I've got one vanilla game into November '61 and one Clovis mod one to same date (seperate folders and even drives). Sure enough in both the Western Rivers turn into interstates in mud or frozen conditions. Seems once it snows rivers allow units to move very rapidly...about 1 region per day. This to me suggests the terrain file is wrong, but I couldn't mod it to get it to work and Gray pointed me in another direction. Anyone else see this happening or know of a way to fix or that I can at least tweak? Also had a CSA land unit hanging out in Missouri Confluent for a few weeks, not on a transport. That was in the late summer (Clovis mod version).


UPDATE This does not seem isolated to frozen rivers, that only makes it even more obvious as the terrain cost values of frozen rivers are better than clear land so the AI choice is almost totally rivers in many cases. This problem also exists in summer. I've had units use river locations as steps in their movement path without clicking on "use river transport". I don't mean they cross the rivers...they use them as if they were land. I've posted in bug forum on this.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Pocus]

I don't see what I can do. If the region is a frozen river, and the cost is not impossible, then the AI will use it... We are not speaking of minor crossing link here, but of whole region representing a river.
Now if it is not historical to have troops moving over these kind of regions, then the terrain matrix should be changed.

Either case, I don't see what I would have to fix in the AI about that.

[lodilefty]

Perhaps we need to

1. Increase the movement requirement on 'ice' [terrain matrix]
2. Put in more crossings links where we want units to cross freely.

Thus no changes to engine...

[satisfaction]

Perhaps we need to

1. Increase the movement requirement on 'ice' [terrain matrix]
2. Put in more crossings links where we want units to cross freely.

Thus no changes to engine...

I'd second these ideas in winter. Moving on rivers should probably be the most difficult. Yes they are open and flat, but also the ice is not something you would want thousands of men and guns walking on. Walking on the Ohio River upstream of Cinci. is just not something your really want to do (know from experience). Seems it should only be a desperation move if there is no other possible move. The problem I ran into was a small cavalry force and leaders using these frozen rivers as highways into my rear. For example there was a force in far eastern Kentucky city (forget the name) on a frozen river. It went from there and raided up into Ohio. I had placed blocking forces on land to prevent the raid, but they just went right up the river and split my boys. Looking at the .ter files seems like rivers are the easiest terrain to use in frozen weather.

The second problem I faced was units retreating there after a battle. CSA attacked and lost and fell back on the river and stayed there for a turn to regroup. Seems to me they should have wanted to go back across the river not onto the river. They should have been shelled into oblivion by those big guns on land (had a few 20lbers).

Finally I have seen land units using rivers as movement paths during warm weather...without using river transport. Might just be something in crossing links being to far but what I have is Mac going from Cinci to river to Louisville...no river transport turned on.

If it is major hassle then I would say just make them very difficult to use and add more crossing links, but overall they were not used as movement arteries during the ACW. (Closest I can find is Forrest and Ft. Donelson and he only briefly used the river to skirt the lines before getting back on land)

Just my two cents, if I didn't love the game so much I wouldn't be this passionate about issues! ((Also posted in bug forum, but I'll use this as main thread. Didn't know that threads can be moved so it posted twice )

EDIT by "terrain matrix" are you refering to .ter files? If pointed to this I'd be more than happy to mod until my hearts content!

[arsan]

Hi!

I'm currently playing a Prussian long campaign on NCP and seeing the same kind on problems with frozen rivers (most of the campaign happens on winter, so the big German and polish rivers are frozen 75% on the times).
I regularly see full cops and armies moving up and down the map on frozen rivers... and pretty fast, ignoring terrain, mud etc.
Besides, As satisfaction says, whole AI corps can remain turn after turn over the frozen river area Thats can't be solved by changing movement cost i fear...
So this is not an AACW only problem...

I know there are some historical cases of frozen rivers/lakes used as "highways" but they are pretty few. As a general rule of thumb, a frozen river is not a place you would want to spend some weeks camping on or walk 300 miles over with a full army including cannons, horses and supply.
I think it would be much better for realism sake to just don't alow land units to move over frozen rivers. Just cross them like a regular river.
Or at most to allow irregulars, leaders and the like use them, but not regular/big units. And i mean in all AGEOD games.
We will lose a little flavor and gain a lot in realism most of the times.

Curiously, i had not noticed this proble before. Mayeb the AI has learn the trick lately or was frozen river movement cost changed recently?

Just my 2 cents!
Regards

[Gray_Lensman]

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[lodilefty]

edit> depending on your answer, I'll edit the .ter files if necessary.

Ditto for WIA

[satisfaction]

I like your thoughts Gray, but also guess I'll wait and see response. Thanks for the input and help all, including Pocus. This is why I love this game (and seen to be WIA)...great community and support. I second the notion of no land units on rivers, just crossing them. Also this is the first time I noticed this too. Been playing on 1.09 in PBEM and this never came up. Only has started since I went to 1.10d (I went from 1.09a to 1.10d). Don't know if that helps isolate what may have changed. Looking forward to helping any way I can.

[satisfaction]

Figure I'd post this. I modded the river .ter files so that they show -999 for all land units. One year in and so far so good, no armies on frozen rivers and no noticable impact on jump links for river crossings. Finally I do want to look at the links around Cinci. the confluent there (don't remember the name) gets used as a movement point to Louisville...and only by Mac it seems. Not a big deal as the war has moved south from there and I use rail and river now.

[Gray_Lensman]

deleted

[satisfaction]

This was fixed in the v1.11 Public Beta Patch, soon to be vanilla v1.11 I presume.

Great! I just need to remember to restore my old files before I patch.

[Daxil]

Walking on the Ohio River upstream of Cinci. is just not something your really want to do (know from experience).

I guess you're just not cut out to be an ice road trucker.