Where is Jeb???

[pepe4158]

I duno its always a tough call ...I mean the playabilty factor of a game versus what did n could happen historically.I mean face it in PvP the game is already slanted to a northern offensive (as historically so) as the south can mostly only brace for impact between two equal players. So I understand the need for the chessy Cav trick so that the southern player can at least feel he is striking back....but all in all I contend that more elite southern units would actually be the better answer (historically so), quess everyone just has more fun with cav units n says s#rew that it never happened historically Im haviing fun with my Cav units.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

Actually, according to Foote's Narrative, Grierson's raid was not a well planned out aberation, the only plan was to move down to the rail that moved east out of Jackson, Mississippi and destroy as much track as possible to slow down reinforcement/supplies reaching Vicksburg by eliminating Jackson Mississippi as a supply nexus. Beyond that, everything was pretty much played out by chance as to which direction to go to get back to friendly forces.

No matter how you argue, these long distance raids can and did happen in the Civil War and are therefore historically possible, not necessarily probable, but definitely possible. As I said before, if they are moving too fast, then that's a different argument. But the distances are possible, as several historical examples prove.

.

1. hmmm according to Grierson.s accounts it was a well planned raid, and I refer you to my earlier link which actually does work...sometimes

Grierson. Before proceeding further, I will state that
Colonel Grierson planned this expedition some three
months previous to this time, and it was submitted to
General Hurlbut and remained null until again referred
to by Colonel Grierson, when it was forwarded to Gen-
eral Grant, then near Vicksburg, who readily approved
it, and sent suitable instructions how Colonel Grierson
was to proceed.

2. My biggest point in why the upstate NY raids are not possible, is you simply cant take a distance and apply it at will to a different geographical location. The arguement that cause I did 400 miles in this terrain I can do it anywhere is wrong. The geography to support such a raid, as the game allows is all wrong, hence they NEVER occured historically.

[pepe4158]

Actually, according to Foote's Narrative, Grierson's raid was not a well planned out aberation, the only plan was to move down to the rail that moved east out of Jackson, Mississippi and destroy as much track as possible to slow down reinforcement/supplies reaching Vicksburg by eliminating Jackson Mississippi as a supply nexus. Beyond that, everything was pretty much played out by chance as to which direction to go to get back to friendly forces.

No matter how you argue, these long distance raids can and did happen in the Civil War and are therefore historically possible, not necessarily probable, but definitely possible. As I said before, if they are moving too fast, then that's a different argument. But the distances are possible, as several historical examples prove.

.

1. hmmm according to Grierson.s accounts it was a well planned raid, and I refer you to my earlier link which actually does work...sometimes

Grierson. Before proceeding further, I will state that
Colonel Grierson planned this expedition some three
months previous to this time, and it was submitted to
General Hurlbut and remained null until again referred
to by Colonel Grierson, when it was forwarded to Gen-
eral Grant, then near Vicksburg, who readily approved
it, and sent suitable instructions how Colonel Grierson
was to proceed.

2. My biggest point in why the upstate NY raids, as the game allows, are not possible, is you simply cant take a distance and apply it at will to a different geographical location. The arguement that cause I did 400 miles in this terrain I can do it anywhere is wrong. The geography to support such a raid, as the game allows is all wrong, hence they NEVER occured historically.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

agreed ...wasnt trying to get it changed as I actually think (after considering it) that it balances the game from a PvP perspective and adds fun, as I agreed with you theoreticaly that NO game can achileve 100% historical accuracy IMO and you must have a playabilty factor for the game to be enjoyable.I just wish they had picked another avenue, but understand Pocus's dilema to deliver a balanced enjoyable game.

Tell you what ...Ive already wrote and awaiting expert opinion, historical perspective, whether a southern cavalry raid, into upstate NY, would be possible. Tell you what, when I recieve the professor's response, I will privatly message or e-mail it to you?

Ha-ha besides...he already fixed the DC exploit I was whinning about.....darn good service from a gaming Co. if you ask me lol

[Gray_Lensman]

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[pepe4158]

Sorry, to be honest, I'm much more interested in other gamers' opinions on this matter, than modern professors. There are a great many gamers and Civil War buffs that frequent these threads that have spent a great portion of their freetime studying the Civil War and events that happened. You just don't get better opinions than that.

lol----agreed

[Skibear]

In my opinion I am perfectly happy with the game system for raiders:
In a two week period you can cover good ground. I think it is currently a reasonable distance. Usually if you start in Virginia you can get deep into Penn or W.Virginnia, but with limited supplies you cant go forever.
To go further you risk running out of supplies or capture. Taking too much risk and losing your cavalry unit is more pain to you in this case than the union having to replace some rails.
If you are on evade combat you stand a good chance of not being caught, but there is still a danger you will get caught and destroyed.
So all in all I think the system is nicely modelled.

[Southerner]

Hi guys! I have another problem: shortly - where dissappeared Jeb Stuart's division? I ordered to take Syracuse (see the picture). Division was partially unsupplied (50%) and has 5 units inside. At beginning of the new turn, I can read: "J.E.B Stuart's Command has arrived in Oneida...", but there is no Stuart , only J.Mounton command left (he was in stack with Stuart's Div.). I have not Stuart in a Roster as well...

Odd isn't it?...I have played through several games and never "lost General Stuart"..until this current one I'm in.

He was leading a division in West Virginia and after the turn he had simply vanished! The forces he had commanded were still there ,intact..but he was gone!


I check all the messages religiously ater each turn and didn't spot the "He was KIA" or "Was wounded and recuperating somewhere" messages..which usually explain these things..nope, he had simply vanished into thin air.

Maybe we are dealing with a virtual Devil's Triangle

[Jabberwock]

Lee & Southerner -

What turn was it in each of your games when JEB disappeared?

It may be an event-related bug.

Jo Shelby's '63 raid through Missouri is good data for the tangential topic. @1500 miles / 41 days = 36+ miles per day. Foote vol. 2, pp. 776-778.

[soloswolf]

edit> C'mon fellas, give some opinions pro or con.

Wilson's Selma raid was ultimately more successful than any other raid during the war, but due to when it took place, often is seen as unimportant. They covered more ground, captured more men and equipment than any other raid and it was a landmark operation in general due to the composition of his column. It was by far the largest cavalry operation during the war, and you really have to go back to Murat to find a comprable combat force. Wilson's men were armed with Spencers, but he also was known to order more than his fair share of sabre charges.

As far as raiding upstate NY, there is plenty of good land to do it in. Forage would certainly be your largest issue, but honestly a regiment sized force could likely sustain itself for a fair amount of time and could nulify opposing numbers with the particular terrain up there.

(Regarding distance: I am refering to the amalgam distance by all three of his divisions. Straight line distance was not so remarkable until you look at the breadth of ground from end to end of his men.)

[Lee]

Lee & Southerner -

What turn was it in each of your games when JEB disappeared?

It may be an event-related bug.

Jo Shelby's '63 raid through Missouri is good data for the tangential topic. @1500 miles / 41 days = 36+ miles per day. Foote vol. 2, pp. 776-778.

It was in early February of 1863 (in 1861 April Campaign). I don't remeber number of that turn.

[Southerner]

Lee & Southerner -

What turn was it in each of your games when JEB disappeared?

It may be an event-related bug.

I didn't note the exact turn # but it was early in' 63.



EDIT: PS...I didn't see Lee's answer until after I posted mine. So both were early in '63... hmmmm...you could be right...event related.

[soloswolf]

hmmmm...you could be right...event related.

Maybe he just likes the scenery around Cayuga lake?

That still doesn't explain the lack of a message in the box.

[Gray_Lensman]

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[Southerner]

Maybe he just likes the scenery around Cayuga lake?

That still doesn't explain the lack of a message in the box.

But if it is a real "bug" (a fault or defect in a system or machine ) then I wouldn't expect a message...and probably this thread probably would never have been started.

[Qman39]

Each turn is 2 weeks so 270miles would be 18 miles per day. Not too fantastic on horseback. But while it is possible in the game to get to upstate New York, then supply wise its difficult and quite rightly there is every chance that it is a one way mission which is as it should be.

And I agree with Grey. I am from UK/Europe but have travelled extensively through 26 of the US states over the years, including many of the battlefields and like to read widely on this subject. Where somebody is based does not preclude them from having a clue. You might have driven that interstate, but I'm guessing it wasnt there in the 1860s?

BTW Shelby Foote book is great. I found the 2nd volume it in a little second hand shop in New Orleans 11 years ago and carried it round the world with me. Just been rereading it this week. I wish I could find the first volume. But yes, great account of Morgan's raid and definately demonstrates the potential for long distance raiding, but as they were finally boxed in by union cavalry, militia and gunboats and captured it nicely displays (once again!) that this is a greatly modelled game.

Try Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble for the complete Foote trilogy!! Happy hunting!!!

[Lee]

Ok - I have screen - just before vanishing of Jeb Stuart. You can notice - that division is 50% supplied and around of 50% of manpower. And only 2 days from town...

[Jabberwock]

I suspect this is the culprit (from /ACW/Events/CSA Leaders.sct). It has no message, and happens early march '63. I've noticed a few events seem to be happening one turn earlier than the date specified. Maybe there is also a problem with the unit it is supposed to convert to?

SelectFaction = $CSA
StartEvent = evt_nam_CSA_Stuart|1|1|NULL|NULL|NULL|NULL

Conditions
MinDate = 1862/03/01
MaxDate = 1862/03/14
EvalUnqUnit = James E.B. Stuart;NOT
SelectFaction = $CSA
SelMostNumGroup = Area $Mid_Atlantic;CPCount
GenMsg
SelectRegInArea = $VA;Squared;OwnedVPCities;CondSkip
GenMsg
PickFromRegList = NotEnemy
GenMsg
EvalRegionSel = NULL

Actions
GenMsg

SelectFaction = $CSA
CreateGroup
Posture = $Defensive
SetKind = $Land
Entranch = 0
InCS = 0
FixType = 0
SetName = J. Stuart
Apply
CreateUnit
SetType = $uni_CSA_Stuart
SetName = James E.B. Stuart
Apply

EndEvent

[Lee]

Here you are! Saves from that turn. You can check that.

[Jabberwock]

Did some testing. Eliminated one suspect. It does not appear to be the CSA_Stuart event causing this issue, after all. I removed the event from the file, restarted the game, and ran the turn. Same result, Stuart and his division disappear.

[pepe4158]

Lee & Southerner -

What turn was it in each of your games when JEB disappeared?

It may be an event-related bug.

Jo Shelby's '63 raid through Missouri is good data for the tangential topic. @1500 miles / 41 days = 36+ miles per day. Foote vol. 2, pp. 776-778.

Im not up on the Shelby raids...but wasnt a lot of it through Kansas too?...if so then again you have nice flat riding terrain n equating one mileage to another is riddiculous.
Yeah the expert I contacted is saying it is theoritically possible...so Gray is claiming victory....well its theoritically possible for me to build a ship to travel to Alpha Centauri, but dont expect to see that either.
Point is, it IS an exploit...silimlar to me dunking Mac into the ocean so I dont have to take a heavy hit on army forming...very easy...just swim him into a fort, he is incapped...problem solved...but it IS an exploit, like the cav trick is an exploit!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmm not an exploit you say...then neither is dunking Mac in the ocean! (certainly is an exploit!)
Well sending Mac into the ocean to be wounded certainly could have happened, imagine the conversation occuring?
Lincoln: I have been worried about your performance lately, how about a nice boat ride?
Gen. Mac: Where Mr President?
Lincoln: Never mind where ol buddy, youl see.

Point is that IS theoriticaly possible but NEVER would have happened n didnt...neither did the Cav raids in upstate NY

[Gray_Lensman]

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