Cavalry Divisions

[Old Peter]

I've been toying with creating a Cavalry division in the East, now that Stuart has arrived. What would be the best composition for this?

Old Peter

[soloswolf]

If you are going for straight speed, Ldr+17 cavalry regiments. For optimum performance however, Ldr+13 cav+4 Horse Arty.

[Old Peter]

Thanks. Would I need supply wagons as well, outside the divison but still in the stack?

Old Peter

[soloswolf]

Thanks. Would I need supply wagons as well, outside the divison but still in the stack?

Old Peter

It's your call really. They will slow you down on some terrain types, but if you plan on this stack really seeing combat, I would have them. 1) For the obvious supply/ammo, but 2) you get a 10% fire bonus for having them present.

And you got it on having them outside of the division, but in the stack.

[Coffee Sergeant]

Thanks. Would I need supply wagons as well, outside the divison but still in the stack?

Old Peter

The supply wagons will slow down the entire stack, thus negating the advantage of an all-calvary force (speed). You could use them to occassionally resupply the stack, shuffling them between your stack and depot.

Be careful though, I lost an entire calvary division as Union in Missouri, because it ran out of supply Just because you are in a 'green' region, as dictated by the supply maps, does NOT mean your units will be supplied.

[Skibear]

Size wise for cavalry divisions then it depends on what you want that cavalry division to do I think. I cant think of anytime that I have maxed out a cavalry division to 17+cmdr (though I am sure plenty people do).

However if you are trying to catch raiders and give them a beating then you might want to build something that will hurt a CSA cavalry brigade. You might only then want say 8 cavalry regiments and 2 horse artillery to give you 2-1 odds over anything you catch. Obviously as the union then money is no object really but it feels wasteful to have huge maxed out cavalry divisons.

Another consideration also might be that units of less that 12 elements have much better evasion chances? Correct me somebody if I am wrong? So running around with an 18 strong unit of cavalry means a) you might not catch your prey b) if you get caught out against an enemy infantry corps then you might not evade so easily. As somebody said, if you are going looking for a big fight you are going to want supply waggons, in which case you negate your speed and you might as well be infantry. Somebody may well counter that later war union cavalry with carbines have pretty good firepower stats making a cav division pretty tough, but I've never build a full division on based on that yet.

Also, if you are raiding with a division yourself, and relying on picking up supplies from captured harbours/towns then supplies might not go so far around a maxed out division. And as coffee sergeant says it is possible to loose a whole division through supplies.

So, anyway, those are a few reasons why I typically stick to cavalry divisions of no more than 10 elements + a commander. I'm sure somebody else can argue the case for why you should always have 13 cavalry + 4 horse art but thats my logic anyway. Same as any decision, decide what you want the division to do and optimise it to the task in hand. Sometimes 4 cav + 1 hs.art will do to patrol a border region, and sometimes you might want to get a cavalry corps in army reserve and have it in reserve to march to guns quickly. But so far i still favour sensibly mid sized divisions.

[Evren]

Size wise for cavalry divisions then it depends on what you want that cavalry division to do I think. I cant think of anytime that I have maxed out a cavalry division to 17+cmdr (though I am sure plenty people do).

However if you are trying to catch raiders and give them a beating then you might want to build something that will hurt a CSA cavalry brigade. You might only then want say 8 cavalry regiments and 2 horse artillery to give you 2-1 odds over anything you catch. Obviously as the union then money is no object really but it feels wasteful to have huge maxed out cavalry divisons.

Another consideration also might be that units of less that 12 elements have much better evasion chances? Correct me somebody if I am wrong? So running around with an 18 strong unit of cavalry means a) you might not catch your prey b) if you get caught out against an enemy infantry corps then you might not evade so easily. As somebody said, if you are going looking for a big fight you are going to want supply waggons, in which case you negate your speed and you might as well be infantry. Somebody may well counter that later war union cavalry with carbines have pretty good firepower stats making a cav division pretty tough, but I've never build a full division on based on that yet.

Also, if you are raiding with a division yourself, and relying on picking up supplies from captured harbours/towns then supplies might not go so far around a maxed out division. And as coffee sergeant says it is possible to loose a whole division through supplies.

So, anyway, those are a few reasons why I typically stick to cavalry divisions of no more than 10 elements + a commander. I'm sure somebody else can argue the case for why you should always have 13 cavalry + 4 horse art but thats my logic anyway. Same as any decision, decide what you want the division to do and optimise it to the task in hand. Sometimes 4 cav + 1 hs.art will do to patrol a border region, and sometimes you might want to get a cavalry corps in army reserve and have it in reserve to march to guns quickly. But so far i still favour sensibly mid sized divisions.

Well, your cavalry divisions don't have to be raider hunters or deep raiders necessarily. You can also use them for special purposes. But it is important to use them with commanders like Forrest, Stuart, Sheridan etc.. You can use them as fast reinforcements, you can chase and wipe out smaller units or divisions with low cohesion after a battle. In these cases, you don't have to give them supply wagons, since speed and evasion values are essential.

One other thing, more elements in a division, the faster the military control change is. So you can also use them to damage the supply lines of huge forces, and you'll have a better chance of not being destroyed, if engaged.

[Skibear]

Totally agree on the fast reserve, as hinted in the last paragraph. Like the idea on the follow up punch. Very Napoleonic cutting down the stragglers.

Any ideas on the evasion size point though? Less than 12 elements give better chance I think I read somewhere in a guide? Because that would seem to be the optimum for evasion and survival and still effecting the military control as you suggest. Kinda the battlecruiser school of thought, outfight anything faster, outrun anything tougher.

[Pubcrawler]

...the follow up punch. Very Napoleonic cutting down the stragglers.

Great idea! I'll put that into practice in my current game

My cav usually is relegated to destroying rail connections and deep raids into enemy territory. Now that P Sheridan just arrived for the Union, I'll put him to good use.

[soloswolf]

I like to put in a dash of roleplay into my games and will often have 'cavalry' divisions with infantry units in them fighting as dismounted/unmounted troops. Pretty common before Wilson reorganized the Cavalry Bureau. (And after as well, but still better.)

[Old Peter]

Wow, thanks guys! I didn't really like just putting a smattering of cavalry in each division. It seemed if I had these expensive units, I should put them together and maximize their abilities. But that's just me. Also, is there anyway to group artillery batteries to form battalions?

Old Peter

[Banks6060]

Yeah I have yet to find a really productive means of using my cavalry divisions other than grabbing some MC in the enemy's rear. The only difficulty is that they can't hold it. I'd say the only other things they might be good for....

depending on Cav Leader stats....increasing the stack's detect/hide value (i.e. screening etc...)

Also...they seem to be well suited for advancing into an enemy region ahead of your army to establish enough MC to prevent your stack from automatically switching over to "Offensive" posture and needlesly rushing an entrenched enemy. Although I have yet to successfully utilize this strategy.

[Skibear]

[quote="Banks6060"]Yeah I have yet to find a really productive means of using my cavalry divisions...[quote]

Good to hear, my evil nemesis Stop learning more on the forum!!


Grouping artillery together by itself in divisions is a well proven failure. Doesnt work. Because of frontage limits then only 4 artillery units can fire per division, others sit idle. And artillery unsupported by enough infantry gets creamed.
You can also have four loose artillery per corps, and these target the strongest enemy unit they face. However their are a few artillery specialist out there that provide a bonus to the stack they are in. Think of this as the corps artillery officer co-ordinating the artillery fireplan for the whole unit.

[soloswolf]

Also, is there anyway to group artillery batteries to form battalions?

In Jagger's mod, yes. You can merge two independent units together that occupy only 1cp. Also, there are arty bns you can produce that start with two and can fill up to a max of four. These occupy 2cp.

[soloswolf]

Yeah I have yet to find a really productive means of using my cavalry divisions other than grabbing some MC in the enemy's rear. The only difficulty is that they can't hold it. I'd say the only other things they might be good for....

depending on Cav Leader stats....increasing the stack's detect/hide value (i.e. screening etc...)

Also...they seem to be well suited for advancing into an enemy region ahead of your army to establish enough MC to prevent your stack from automatically switching over to "Offensive" posture and needlesly rushing an entrenched enemy. Although I have yet to successfully utilize this strategy.

Wilson style raids are a lot of fun, and are not only survivable but effective if you plan your trip right.

[GShock]

Cav div can sneak past enemies unseen in passive mode, at the same time, it helps against FOW bc of their high detection ratings (good scouts).
Supply not only gives supplies and arty bonuses, it also takes hit coming from bad weather. Elasticity is the key.

[Banks6060]

Yeah I have yet to find a really productive means of using my cavalry divisions...

Good to hear, my evil nemesis Stop learning more on the forum!!


Grouping artillery together by itself in divisions is a well proven failure. Doesnt work. Because of frontage limits then only 4 artillery units can fire per division, others sit idle. And artillery unsupported by enough infantry gets creamed.
You can also have four loose artillery per corps, and these target the strongest enemy unit they face. However their are a few artillery specialist out there that provide a bonus to the stack they are in. Think of this as the corps artillery officer co-ordinating the artillery fireplan for the whole unit.

Trust me I've learned more from getting creamed by you than I could learn from these soggy bastards in a decade

no offense to all you soggy bastards...

[Major Tom]

Any ideas on the evasion size point though? Less than 12 elements give better chance I think I read somewhere in a guide? Because that would seem to be the optimum for evasion and survival and still effecting the military control as you suggest.

I've been doing some testing on how evasion points are calculated, because they don't seem to follow the general rules that I've read on the message board.

One thing I've been testing is how the composition of a cavalry division affects evasion.

I've discovered that a division (or brigade with embedded leader) has better evasion than a stack of loose cavalry. A loose stack gets no benefit from a leader in the stack unless the leader is combined with the elements.

The benefit the stack gets from the leader varies based on the total number of elements in the stack.

Here are the evade values for a single all-cavalry division in clear terrain, based on number of elements (including leader);

2 elements = 25 evade
3 elements = 22 evade
4 elements = 20 evade
5 elements = 19 evade
6-7 elem = 18 evade
8-12 elem = 17 evade
13-18 elem = 16 evade

Single unnattached cav element in solo stack = 12-13 evade.

These numbers can vary slightly (for some unkown reason I've seen a +/- one evasion point variation between stacks that seem identically composed). One plus factor is experience stars.

Clearly, it would be ridiculous to make a division with just one leader and one cavalry element, although that would give you a killer evasion value. But, you get the same benefit from combining a leader at the brigade level.

If you're looking for a light raider force that can slip in and out of enemy territory, cut rail lines, and take ungarrisoned structures, then add a leader to a one or two element cavalry brigade and you'll have the best evasion value around -- double the evasion value of a tiny leaderless force. (leader must be combined, not just stacked with the cav unit).

If the unit has to be able to fight, or take a structure with a small garrison, you'll need more cav elements. A small division of 1 leader and 5 cav elements has a 19 evasion rating. If you're going any higher than that, you might as well go all the way to 18 elements, as there's only a 2 point evasion differnece between 6 and 18 elements.

Horse artillery have the same evasion as cavalry, so adding them will not reduce your evasion rating, only your speed.

Supply wagons will kill your evasion rating, taking it down to 4. No all-cav division should carry supply wagons.

Also, stick to rough terrain wherever possible, as it adds +5 to your evasion. (I've tested forest, hills, mountain, marsh, and swamp, and all give the same +5; woods gives no benefit).

[Major Tom]

Another note regarding my above comments --

Based on my reading of the the Zone of Control rules, there does not appear to be much benefit to a super-high evasion rating.

We know from Pocus' post in this thread http://www.ageod-forum.com/showthread.php?t=4643 that there is a cap of 90% on the enemy's ZOC effect. The manual seems to say that there is a similar low-end cap at 6%, so regardless of your high evasion rating you won't be able to withdraw into a region in which you have less than 6% military control (see manual section on Withdrawing from Combat).

Based on the confirmed formula for ZOC and evasion, a retreating unit won't hit this minimum military control requirement unless the enemy has a ZOC value of almost 1000, which would require several Corps stacks in the same region.

It looks to me like any evasion rating above 20 is unneeded.

[Major Tom]

These numbers can vary slightly (for some unkown reason I've seen a +/- one evasion point variation between stacks that seem identically composed).

The answer is, I'm an idiot.

My test game is in late 1862 and it appears I have a mix of early and late war cavalry. Early war CSA cavalry have evasion of 9. Late war cavalry have 10. Hence, the "unexplained" variation of +/- one point of evasion in my testing.

[Major Tom]

My test game is in late 1862 and it appears I have a mix of early and late war cavalry. Early war CSA cavalry have evasion of 9. Late war cavalry have 10. Hence, the "unexplained" variation of +/- one point of evasion in my testing.

Just to correct myself here -- the two types of CSA cavalry I noticed are not the result of an upgrade, they are present from the start. There are two different versions fo CSA cavalry with slightly different stats. The ones with the light grey uniform and kepi have a 10 evade. The ones with the dark grey jacket and plumed hat have a 9 evade.

I'm finishing up a complete analysis of evasion which I'll post soon.

[77NY]

Now in winter '62 in campaign.

I've been using leaderless groups of no more than 2 cav + 1 horse arty in Missouri & Kansas. I always lose battles vs. Watie and CSA and supply is a recurring problem. I've lost Tucson and Kansas and Missouri is a mess. But Far West is a sideshow theater of ops and the crazy back-and-forth is actually fun for me.

Scarier problems in Ohio river area with CSA corps-size incursions to Cincinnati. But I just don't have the cav elements to play with b/c I add a cav to each inf division for detection. Maybe that is overkill, I don't know. But what is happening in the big picture is a "surge" of rear-area militia garrisons as time goes on, with some 12 lb arty here and there for lev 5+ entrenchment.

So all of this is to say that I don't ever see the need for any large rear-area cav divisions to fight raiders based on my style of play vs CSA AI. On the offensive side, I could see a cavalry division as potentially fun to bring along when the Army of the Ohio makes its move to splinter off into small units and wreak havoc behind CSA lines. But I think you would need to bring at least 4 extra supply units to keep the splintered elements out of trouble.

[soloswolf]

As for cav in your divisions, just use the brigades that come with cav in them. (There are plenty to chose from, the majority being 2inf, 1 cav) Personally, I like to have two cav per division. It's always worked well for me. They get levels quickly and I have my own rp reasons for doing it as well.

As far as divisions of cav... They are pretty much my favorite thing in the game. They are not always wise, but they certainly are fun. And as far as the wagons to go with them: forget it. Primarily because it will kill their evasion and slow them down. Rely on the power of the division to force their way into a city/depot and then get out of there.

If you bring wagons with them they'll both get caught, and that will get expensive real fast.

[77NY]

As far as divisions of cav... They are pretty much my favorite thing in the game. They are not always wise, but they certainly are fun.

Amen. I'm one of those who sometimes get too wrapped up in the simming part to remember to have fun with the gaming part.

[MrFiend497]

Has anyone tried mixing in raiders with a cavalry division? Are there any differences between the eastern raiders (IE Mosby's 43rd Battalion) and western mounted partisans (mounted bushwackers)? Also, what about Texas Rangers?

In my last game I kept my cavalry in three seperate corps, attached to the armies of Mississippi, Tennessee, and Potomac, under Earl van Dorn, Joseph Wheeler, and Stephen D. Lee, repectively. Some of the divisions had partisans added to them as filler, all of them had at least one battery of horse artillery. I used them primarily as first-strike elements operating ahead of my armies, or as rapid-response forces capable of beating back a raid or relieving a small force nearby my main army, or merely as an additional corps participating in a major attack with the rest of the army. Overall, they performed well.

Independent divisions... I rarely operate them without an additional leader, and they are in effect the same as my corps - save smaller due to command limitations.

(I sim a bit too much as well. I limit cavalry divisions to proper cavalry commanders - ones with the cavalryman trait, or who have a history in the cavalry as per their bio information.)

[soloswolf]

Has anyone tried mixing in raiders with a cavalry division? Are there any differences between the eastern raiders (IE Mosby's 43rd Battalion) and western mounted partisans (mounted bushwackers)? Also, what about Texas Rangers?

You can check the differences between their stats in the detailed element page. This will give you a clear idea if you think they are suitable to pair with the other units.

(I sim a bit too much as well. I limit cavalry divisions to proper cavalry commanders - ones with the cavalryman trait, or who have a history in the cavalry as per their bio information.)

I wouldn't worry about this. Work to your strengths. These generals have this trait because they were known for being skilled at handling cavalry and almost all had this reputation pre-war. Those reputations just grew.

[Gray_Lensman]

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