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pasternakski
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Sat May 12, 2007 4:55 pm

caranorn wrote:You obviously meant give Soult the left and taken Davout along regardless of...


Yeah, dad gum it, they tell me that your memory is the first thing to go.

I can't remember what they said was second, but I got a sneakin' suspicion that I'm better off without whatever it was.

Now, what was the first thing to go again?

Well, anyway, it sounds like Pocus is working his Hocus on this problem, which I still think is partially rooted in "pilot error" and doesn't need more than some minor adjustments.

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pasternakski
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Sat May 12, 2007 5:09 pm

caranorn wrote:Pocus, I think the trenches themselves are okay considering how long it takes to achieve the level of entrenchment in the first example. The often mentioned case of Pickett's charge involves breastworks thrown up over night or possibly over two days (seems I just forgot on which day the charge took place, I believe late on the second, so just overnight and part of the day), so non comparable with our example here.


Longstreet's Disaster was on the third day, sonny. You better double that daily dose of gingko biloba before you wind up like me.

I also think entrenchments are generally acceptable as is, although naturally-occurring "fortifications" (fence lines, sunken roads, hills, creeks, and so on) seem to have figured more prominently in the large field battles than prepared fortifications.

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Sat May 12, 2007 6:10 pm

JF: I did not mean to imply that Grant lost his entire army; of course, he received ample replacements, as promised by President Lincoln. But, his total losses nearly equalled the number of men he started with! Vol. 3, Foote, "The Civil War, A Narrative." A lesser man than Abe Lincoln would have melted under the pressure. IMHO. Tag (Larry) I am sure that Pocus and Phil are looking into this.

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runyan99
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Sat May 12, 2007 6:11 pm

Pocus wrote:Things that can change are:

a) willingness to stop battle when ratio of losses is too high
b) frontage when entrenched
c) propensity of stopping a fight for a regiment when taking losses
d) impact of trenches on defense
e) impact of trenches as an artillery bonus
f) routing formula


I think the main thing to tweak is subject 'a'.

By the way, don't the cohesion rules come into play here? Why isn't a loss of cohesion stopping armies from continuing to attack and suffering massive casualties?

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pasternakski
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Sat May 12, 2007 6:28 pm

When you enter enemy-held territory and launch an ill-advised attack, you may want to run away, but your adversary may not be so willing to let you, particularly when most of your troops are only as fast as shoe leather will allow them to be.

I think we have to learn how to fight this war and not press too quickly for expedient "fixes" that make the system too forgiving of our mistakes. Yes, it appears that there can be some really odd-looking combat loss results, but the examples I have seen mentioned so far seem to involve either shortcomings in the AI's abilities or downright bad generalship.

Once you picks up de tar baby, it hain't allus so easy ta put 'er down again.

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Help on the Way!!!l

Sat May 12, 2007 6:33 pm

Pocus: Sounds great!! I will continue to play and see if I can avoid losses of more men than I had to start with! LOL Remember: " Marius, give me back my legions!!" It didn't take Marse Robert's boys long to dig in, and, the Blue Bellies knew better than to launch a frontal attack, espcially after Fredricksburg!! And the ANV knew the same thing after Malvern Hill. As for Pickett, he would have attacked a machine gun nest on hill in a bunker bare-handed with a crutch. LOL IMHO if Ole' Burn had insisted on another attack, the AoP would have refused, from the top down!! Tag :cwboy:

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Sat May 12, 2007 7:14 pm

tagwyn wrote:Pocus: Sounds great!! I will continue to play and see if I can avoid losses of more men than I had to start with! LOL Remember: " Marius, give me back my legions!!" It didn't take Marse Robert's boys long to dig in, and, the Blue Bellies knew better than to launch a frontal attack, espcially after Fredricksburg!! And the ANV knew the same thing after Malvern Hill. As for Pickett, he would have attacked a machine gun nest on hill in a bunker bare-handed with a crutch. LOL IMHO if Ole' Burn had insisted on another attack, the AoP would have refused, from the top down!! Tag :cwboy:



It was Quinctilius Varus, give me back my legions.

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Sat May 12, 2007 7:40 pm

PDF wrote:I don't think so... In the CW time trenches were not WW1 trenches all along the front, so benefited the defenders only if the attacker attacked head-on. Strategically it was stupid to build big field fortifications as the enemy could just pass by ! AFAIK except when defending cities or forts the entrenchments were quite "light".
I would rather have a lower limit on entrenchment levels (or on their effects) to prevent abuse. Plus level should be unit-based and not force-based as you point out.


Tell that to the men who faced the defenses Lee had set up during the Overland campaign, or Sherman's men who faced the defenses Johnston set up in the Atlanta campaign. In both cases, the defensive areas were quickly prepared, and quite extensive. What I would like to see (but won't) would be the gradual increase of high level field entrenchments through the war. Not around cities, just in the field.

For instance, in '61 the top level would be 2 to simulate the troops unwillingness to dig in, and their use of just natural defenses, then it increases year by year as the troops and generals realize just how much more likely they are to survive if they take the time to prepare their defenses.

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Sat May 12, 2007 7:42 pm

pasternakski wrote:When you enter enemy-held territory and launch an ill-advised attack, you may want to run away, but your adversary may not be so willing to let you, particularly when most of your troops are only as fast as shoe leather will allow them to be.


Point being, after most large ACW battles, the "winner" was rarely in any condition to run down the loser. See First Bull Run, Shiloh, Antietam, Gettysburg, etc.
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Sat May 12, 2007 8:30 pm

tagwyn wrote:JF: I did not mean to imply that Grant lost his entire army; of course, he received ample replacements, as promised by President Lincoln. But, his total losses nearly equalled the number of men he started with! Vol. 3, Foote, "The Civil War, A Narrative." A lesser man than Abe Lincoln would have melted under the pressure. IMHO. Tag (Larry) I am sure that Pocus and Phil are looking into this.


JF's point was that Grant did NOT take casualties almost equal to the force he started with. It was perhaps half of the starting strength. If Foote says otherwise he is flat out wrong.

Dick
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Walloc
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Manuver and entrenchments

Sat May 12, 2007 8:40 pm

Not going to happen, cuz of code and UI restraints, but it would be great if entrenchments were more directional. Possibly based in time. The longer the more directions but this is to be a fairly long time.

Make manuver an more approcheble solution.

If in said province the entrenchment was pointing towards 1 or 2 other provinces so the entrenchments doenst give bonus if attacked from both a northern and Southern direction.
Atm u can stay in a hex until completly surrounded and still get benefits. IMO doesnt induce the natural manuver at times armies had to do also within what is here represented as a provice in order to counter flanking.
There are case histocly both fore and against such, why i would have time play in as a factor.

Overall i have to agree that entrenches do seem to play a to big part. There certainly are cases with varrying degree of entrenchment but in the majority of battles it was only what was contructed during the battle / battle days.

There ofc are notable cases of exceptions Petersburg and so on.
But there seem to be very little reason to in general leave entrenchments as of now. The benefit is just to high IMO.
I have in all my games ended up contructing a line in the East going from what ever river to the Appalachians. Isnt more then 4 provinces so a corps in each.
Basicly leaving a WW1 line, u never have to leave and cant be flanked. In what ever historic examples, never was entrenchment that long.
Problem to me isnt that it shouldnt be possible to make a situasion like Petersburg but if every battle/campaign in East becomes that, its not particular in line with history either.


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Rasmus

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pasternakski
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Sat May 12, 2007 9:10 pm

el_Gato wrote:Point being, after most large ACW battles, the "winner" was rarely in any condition to run down the loser. See First Bull Run, Shiloh, Antietam, Gettysburg, etc.


But that is not what I understood us to be talking about. Those battles were not the "let's walk in here and see what happens" fiascoes wargame players tend to create.

Now, I fully agree that history dictates certain ranges of casualties and disruption of forces when both sides have, if not at least considered, at least reasonably prepared for what ensued.

My problem is that I see people here who are neophytes at the game (and certainly not steeped in practical experience in the period) militating for changes that will bail them out of their own folly, and I think that is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

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Sat May 12, 2007 9:48 pm

type7 wrote:178,000 in a single day's battle?!!?? :bonk:


A result this far off is almost a deal breaker for the entire game (I have a similar problem with the combat results in 'Forge'. Hope this is addressed aggresively using the results of historical battles as an model. :grr:

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Sat May 12, 2007 9:52 pm

A bit OT, but this seems like a good place to offer encouragement to anyone who has yet to try playing against another human - it is a totally different (better) experience! Lots of the problems raised in this thread become non-issues, or at least, become the responsibilty of the player and not the AI.

This is not to say some tweaking isn't needed, but we need to be careful not to overburden Pocus and others with tweaks to a model that may be very good but unable to be utilized properly by the AI.

ALL IMHO of course. :)

Mike

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Sat May 12, 2007 10:10 pm

mikee64 wrote:A bit OT, but this seems like a good place to offer encouragement to anyone who has yet to try playing against another human - it is a totally different (better) experience! Lots of the problems raised in this thread become non-issues, or at least, become the responsibilty of the player and not the AI.

This is not to say some tweaking isn't needed, but we need to be careful not to overburden Pocus and others with tweaks to a model that may be very good but unable to be utilized properly by the AI.


I tended to think the same--whoever would play the AI if he can play a human--but for the fact that in this game a lot of things are done by the AI even in a PBEM game; not least all the decisions during a battle. So if the AI keeps attacking in a hopeless position, incurring enormous casualties--as has been reported earlier in this thread--this doesn't go away just because one plays PBEM. Just my 2 (Euro-)Cents. :innocent:

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Sat May 12, 2007 10:13 pm

Come to think about it, such a thing even happened to me once, though in BoA. Washington positively wrecked the Continental army in an assault on Stanwix. Wonder what he was thinking ... I wanted the sorry stockade, but not that bad. :(

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Sat May 12, 2007 10:14 pm

This is not to say some tweaking isn't needed, but we need to be careful not to overburden Pocus and others with tweaks to a model that may be very good but unable to be utilized properly by the AI.

Especially as we don't know what part of the battle engine to tweak.
As pasternakski excellently pointed out several times, is it not very smart to force the battle engine to produce 'historically' results no matter what the player does.
I would suggest that we collect some data at first. Everyone who experienced a battle result which seems to unrealistic may report it and, most important, keep a save so that Pocus can take a look at it (only a battle result without a save is rather worthless).

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pasternakski
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Sat May 12, 2007 11:37 pm

Heldenkaiser wrote:whoever would play the AI if he can play a human


Well, here I go again, Nancy.

The whole promise of computer wargaming when it came into being back in the 1980s was that the computer could give you a good game when no human was available. Part of the marketing push was to sell these games to board wargamers who could not (or did not want to) find other wargamers with whom to push little cardboard squares around on big cardboard maps and call it "fun."

SPI did a survey in the 1970s (I don't remember offhand which issue of S&T it was in, my copy having been buried in a box somewhere for all eternity, kind of like the Ark of the Covenant at the end of "Raiders of the Lost Ark") showing that more than 70 percent of board wargames were played solitaire (and that is even more remarkable when you think what it took for those closet Nixon introverts to own up to the fact in those numbers).

So, the game designers and developers took notice. One of the primary elements of any game had to be an AI, or the doggoned thing wouldn't sell for sour owlsh1t. Problem was, nobody knew how to make an AI. They fiddled, diddled, whittled, and mostly built games in which the computer, if allowed to play at all, had to cheat in order to be competitive,

Even then, you the human got the privilege of playing over and over and over again so as to learn how to beat the silicon moron, who never learned anything, no matter how many times you gloriously hacked it to shreds (did I mention the advantage of staring incredulously agape at the CRT like a turkey that just felt raindrops banging on its head for the first time, exclaiming, "WTF was that? Man, I got skrewed," then immediately finding the "load saved game" button to go back to the point up to which you felt justice had been served?).

Well, it was good enough for awhile. There were some great successes, perpetrated by the likes of Sid Meyer, Gary Grigsby, and others.

Time passed. The world changed. God looked down, saw it was too calm down there, and declared, in his godlike voice that only god can use (Bill Cosby and his "Noah" routine notwithstanding), "Let there be Atari. Let it become Nintendo, which begat Sony." And it was good ... I guess.

As computers became bigger and better, the games got bigger, too ("better" is something I don't even want to start on here). The great unwashed of wargaming had to take pretty much what they were given, considering that the "Grail" had been re-named "Youth."

There was a great wringing of hands and throwing up of arms. "You just can't create a decent AI, and, even if you could, it would take too much time and trouble." So, the "computer player" has, in general, gotten lamer and lamer as the games have, ostensibly, become better and better.

What answer do you hear most often when someone b1tches about the AI? "Go play against a human, that's when the game is at its best" (you were probably wondering when in the he11 I would get around to saying something actually responsive, eh?).

Fine, if that tips your ewer. Problem is, it just ain't gonna sell. Bazillions of kiddies and wannabe kiddies sit with their game consoles clicking away happily like crickets on a hot summer night. Tons of "real time simulations" (don't get me started) have come down the pike and many have made money. Wargamer have mostly had to go play space epics (Master of Orion, Galactic Civilizations) or "I'm here to conquer the world, if I can get a government grant" stuff, or join in the "What? Today is December 7, and, if I don't get all my guys orders in the next 30 seconds, it's gonna be December 8, and I'm SOL" kind of "fun."

Where does that leave the wargamers still, after twenty years and more, looking for that "good game" the business promised our computers could give them?

Pocus, "...a nation turns its lonely eyes to you..."

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Charleson
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Sun May 13, 2007 3:13 am

ROFL

Charleson <---heading into kitchen to grab a paper towel to clean up the coffee he just spewed on the computer monitor while reading Pasternakski's last post.

el_Gato
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Sun May 13, 2007 8:36 am

pasternakski wrote:But that is not what I understood us to be talking about. Those battles were not the "let's walk in here and see what happens" fiascoes wargame players tend to create.


Gettysburg --- perhaps the most famous battle of the ACW --- was exactly that kind of battle. Pettigrew's Brigade (of Heth's Division) wandered into town in search of a stock of shoes, and before you could whistle Dixie, the biggest land battle in US history was under way. Neither side planned to meet there --- it just escalated from a clash of a few regiments, into a collision of armies.

Now, I fully agree that history dictates certain ranges of casualties and disruption of forces when both sides have, if not at least considered, at least reasonably prepared for what ensued.


Less history, and more statistics. Something that should be, and could be, quantified and adjusted in a computer moderated wargame. Casualties are too high, for whatever reason, and need to be adjusted downward. The way the AI re-adjusts yr tactical posture from defense to offense the minute you cross into enemy controlled territory pretty much renders the whole issue of whether you were "reasonably prepared" null and void.

My problem is that I see people here who are neophytes at the game (and certainly not steeped in practical experience in the period) militating for changes that will bail them out of their own folly, and I think that is absolutely the wrong thing to do.


So what are you saying? If I walk into an ambush in Pennsylvania, I deserve to have my entire 100,000 man army destroyed to the last man in 1 day? In a strategic level wargame like AACW, there is no such thing as suprise. Turns are 15 days long --- the element of suprise lasts a whole 15 minutes. Ever hear the phrase "strategic offense, tactical defense"? Invade the enemies territory, but once battle is met, you assume a defensive position and let the enemy come to you. If I move into Maryland with the ANV in a defensive posture, I expect it to remain that way up until the point I determine that it should change to the offense (if ever). Lee's biggest mistake was attacking the numerically superior AotP at Gettysburg. In just about every other battle, he'd let the Federals come to him, and once they'd burned themselves out, he's launch some flanking attack or other.

The way it stands now, your formations are forced into banzai charges from the get-go, and the combat resolution routines don't seem to recognize when to hit the off switch.

Battles need to end sooner, and open-field entrenchments need to take longer to build / be less powerful.

There's a difference between getting yr fingers burned in an ill-timed advance, and pulling back a bloody stump where yr hand used to be. Basically, the difference between strategic wargames (like AACW), and tactical (Terrible Swift Sword).
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Sun May 13, 2007 9:55 am

pasternakski wrote:Well, here I go again, Nancy.

Pocus, "...a nation turns its lonely eyes to you..."


Don't be so damn ethnocentric here. You should have said "...the world turns its lonely eyes to you..."
Marc aka Caran...

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Sun May 13, 2007 11:18 am

pasternakski wrote:The whole promise of computer wargaming when it came into being back in the 1980s was that the computer could give you a good game when no human was available. Part of the marketing push was to sell these games to board wargamers who could not (or did not want to) find other wargamers with whom to push little cardboard squares around on big cardboard maps and call it "fun."


True. And then, mercifully, some government agencies and computer companies conspired to give us the internet and email, and suddenly nobody needed to choose between finding willing human opponents in his neighbourhood or playing a dumb computer, because there were human opponents from all over the world just a mouseclick away. :)

I discovered PBEM quite late - in 2001 - but since that day I haven't played a single game of anything against the AI. Some tutorial turns for practice when trying out an entirely new game ... but then I go find me a human opponent. The AI doesn't do the unexpected, doesn't try tricks, doesn't feint, doesn't ambush, doesn't pretend to be losing so to be able to win later, and above all, I can't talk to it. (At least not without my wife thinking I have gone totally mad.) In short, without a human at the other edge of the board, it just doesn't feel like war ... :hat:

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Spruce
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Sun May 13, 2007 11:25 am

in TC2M from MMG - morale is also linked to "loss of strength". This is off course a tactical game - but it might be worthwhile to make a comparson =

- loss of strength causes morale to drop,
- supply level of troops is also very important,
- if morale drops enough, the regiment starts to waver and will move back (not running yet),
- drastic reductions in morale will cause the regiment to run for their life,
- if morale is broken, troops rout and they are most often lost for battle duty,
- if enemy troops can reduce morale to rout, and are closeby - the regiment will surrender,
- morale can be regrown by resting units - preferable in the presence of a general,
- morale during battles can be enhanced by generals presence,
- maluses/bonuses for morale come from flanking movements from the enemy, presence of supportive friendly units closeby,

Basicly TC2M is a real gem concerning game design and gameplay fun.

The strength of your army is very important - but also morale is very important. If the enemy assaults and is taking losses - morale drops and will retreat,

Now - I come to the conclusion =

- a matched result in battle casualties is due f.e. to meeting engagements, and off the sort,
- a medium difference in battle casualties is due f.e. to an assault on well fortified troops. But the attackers will stop the attack as soon they realise it's useless to continue, or when troop morale has dropped substantially. So in short words - either the general cancels the assault, or his troops will,
- extreme differences in battle casualites are only due to a full scale assault and an enormous impact on enemy morale and enemy supply - as as such massive surrender,

Now during most of my games with TC2M the best I achieved during normal engagements was a ratio 1/2.5 - that means for 1000 casualties - I inflicted 2500 on the enemy - this is the best you can do (perhaps 1/3 if you use your artillery to the max. - but artilery is a bit gamey in TC2M).

However - there are 2 scenario's where you can really decimate the enemy troops and those were offensive. They were the Jackson and Longstreet scenario's. With Longstreet I was able to cut off 2 corps from the Union army - that was retreating back to Maryland. Now under this condition I was able to go beyond the 1/2,5 ratio - and reach ratios around 1/5.

Conclusion - those figures are only possible to obtain during offensive large scale battles (with corp or army containers involved). They are not related to well entrenched defensive positions - there an attacker will reconsider and stop the attack (strength or morale loss).

I think Chickamuaga, First and Second Manassas are battles where such high casualty differences might have been reached.

As a special case Vicksburg also falls into this categorie.

what happened with morale and rout checks for that battle ? And why is the difference so large - does the attacker surrender against superior defensive positions ? Did Longstreets corps surrendered at Gettysburg - no off course not.

Extreme battle casualties can be only be reached by offensive - large scale operations where a corp or army is able to break enemy morale and supply on a very large scale. And even then, a large portion of the army is able to escape in the majority of cases.

So indeed - there's something wrong with this battle result - we are facing in the first post. For sure if you see the Union is surrendering to the Confederacy, there's an issue there.

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caranorn
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Sun May 13, 2007 11:55 am

Problem with 2nd Manassas is of course that the Union is at first trying to assault a well entrenched Confederate (Jackson, after the brief skirmish the day before the actual battle). In AACW terms that's at least three rounds of combat, even then not fully adaptable to AACW. 1st Round, Jackson ambushes a Union Corps on the move, 2nd Round the Union Army concentrates and assaults Jackson's position, 3rd Round Longstreet attacks the open Union flank (Pope refusing to heed Porter's warnings (note, had Porter followed Pope's orders this would indeed have led to terrible results, with two Union Corps (Porter and McDowell) wrecked even before Longstreet had launched his own offensive)). I fear that in game term the move from Round 1 to 2 would be impossible (Ambush in Offensive stance to defense behind at least level 1 entrenchments (not to speak of the sunken railroad bed in a very rugged area (Manassas I believe is entirely open terrain in AACW)... In a way I guess we can't compare any actual battles to the game as the tactical decisions of history are too complex to incorporate in a strategic game like AACW. What AACW can represent is the course of entire campaigns, and in that the 2nd Manassas could have turned out far worse then it historically did, leading to extreme results.

One more note on 2nd Manassas, in game terms it would be a failed activation (Pope, also McDowell and possibly others), a march to the sounds of the guns on both sides (recently transferred Porter and co. on one side, Lee and Longstreet on the other) etc. But other elements can't be represented, or at least not well (how an Army turns blind to its entire flank, not reacting to a flank attack until the very last moment...).
Marc aka Caran...

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Spruce
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Sun May 13, 2007 12:56 pm

about my post - the point is that extreme differences in battle casualties are based upon massive casualties with the defenders (morale issue, supply issue, cohesion issue, at corp, army scale) due to a successfull full scale assault.

like second Manassas, Chickmauga - those attacks had the potential to achieve this, however it didn't happen historically.

Extreme differences in battle casualties shouldn't come from the attackers on well fortified positions. Cause the attackers, have the initiative, they have the initiative to call of the attack. Anyhow, morale will prevent the attacker to get killed to the last man.

I think you can best compare Gettysburg to Chickamauga to compare both cases. With the only remark that Chickamauga the Union was lucky enough to escape - or it would have happened.

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Sun May 13, 2007 2:52 pm

Memory - lets see how good it is.

VGs Civil War game had three CRT levels - small battles, medium battles and large battles.

The Designer's Notes - I think - mentioned the following;

1. Most Civil War battles were relatively even in casualties. This comparison does not hold up with smaller battles, less so with Medium Battles, and is consistent with Larger Battles.

2. In the larger battles, no one side was in a position to pursue or annihilate the other.

3. The number one reason for forces to stop fighting was exhaustion and the lack of cohesion that goes with that. Fatigue would hit well early in a unit's engagement, and its willingness to kill and commit any action goes down.

We also cannot forget command exhaustion.

---------------

Me thinks two issues are in existence with the combat execution/halt bug - the frontage, making each new pair up between fresh troops in the same condition as the first pair up of 'frontages' creating the opportunity to beat each other too a pulp without the cohesion rules kicking in as the fresh frontages have not fought yet.

1. The Frontage System - does the results on the pairs in the frontage translate to damage to unpaired frontages?

2. The Cohesion system - does it kick in early enough - and does the loss of cohesion in a frontage combat segment cascade to other units? Do the unpaired frontages get a chance to 'hear about' and be influenced by prior frontage combat results?

------------------

Time After Combat - is it me, or do you guys think that units can just be a bit TOO ready to go out and 'do it again' after a battle?

Suggested combat results - lowering of a forces Strategic Rating by lowering the Strategic Rating for those generals in that battle for the next turn - obviously this will be variable based on intensity of combat, size of forces involved, etc...

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pasternakski
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Sun May 13, 2007 5:21 pm

caranorn wrote:Don't be so damn ethnocentric here. You should have said "...the world turns its lonely eyes to you..."


ummm ... that's a quote from the old Simon & Garfunkel song, "Mrs. Robinson."

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Sun May 13, 2007 6:36 pm

pasternakski wrote:ummm ... that's a quote from the old Simon & Garfunkel song, "Mrs. Robinson."



Goo goo ga goob...
:siffle:

Would it be possible to 'reverse engineer' several historical battles using th ACW model to see where the modifications would best be applied? Some value for random results would still have to be included, but minimizing lop sided results.

For example only a few of historical battle lasted more than 2 days, Chickamauga 3 with 2 of very heavy fighting, Gettysburg 4 if you included the July 4th stand off. Seven days would likely be be covered over two turns, 1 North of the Chickahamony and 1 South of the river. It seems like many of even my minor battles in ACW last round after round after round.

At 7 Days you had an extreme in general ratings, Lee vs Little Mac, where the higher rated general won the battle but took greater losses, attacking wiht a smaller force. At Wilderness and Spotslyvania you had similar force ratios to 7 days, a better rated Union general in Grant, but the loss ratio was reveresed from the 7 days.

Create a spreadsheet with various values from historical battles in it and possibly come up with some conclusions that would help the combat model?

... just thinking out loud here. :bonk:

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caranorn
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Sun May 13, 2007 7:51 pm

pasternakski wrote:ummm ... that's a quote from the old Simon & Garfunkel song, "Mrs. Robinson."


So, never twist a quote around a bit?

Note, I was pretty sure it had to be a quote, though I indeed had no clue where from;-).
Marc aka Caran...

blackhorse
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Sun May 13, 2007 9:01 pm

The most baffling part about this is that the Confederates then proceeded to retreat out of the region they had so overwhelmingly successfuly defended.

Why on earth, after suffering a mere 689 casualties to the 20,000+ suffered by the attackers, would my forces suddenly decide to retreat/vacate the region?!

denisonh wrote:I know it has been mentioned before, but would have to ask that the combat model be looked at for seriously unbalanced wholly ahistorical outcomes: See attachment

Losing 26 Infantry, 6 artillery, 2 cavalry, 3 div HQ (essentially a Corps) for 1 HIT in exchange.

A bit much IMHO. I expected to lose, but how could anyone expect those kind of results?

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