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77NY
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Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:53 am

dduff442 wrote:From Houston to Richmond is around 1400 miles. From Saint Louis to New Orleans is around 600. An even greater factor than the dimensions of the area was the state of the communications at the time: unimproved roads (where roads existed at all), insufficient subsistence in many areas for even very small armies, huge areas of swamp and dense woodland.


From Krakow, Poland to Moscow: 835 miles/1300 km
From Krakow, Poland to Stalingrad(Volgograd): 1100 miles/1780 km
From there only another 3800 miles to Vladivostok. ;)

Population of USSR in 1940: ~200 million
Population of Nazi Germany in 1940: ~70 million

Population of CSA in 1861: ~ 9 million
Population of Union in 1861: ~ 22 million

Those numbers just don't support the CSA adopting the overall strategy of the USSR in WWII. While Soviet armored strategy was brilliant in some ways, Soviet infantry tactics were not as sophisticated and often involved human wave attacks.
"I'm a darned sight smarter than Grant; I know a great deal more about war, military histories, strategy and grand tactics than he does; I know more about organization, supply, and administration and about everything else than he does; but I'll tell you where he beats me and where he beats the world. He don't care a damn for what the enemy does out of his sight, but it scares me like hell."

William Tecumseh Sherman

Mangudai
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Sat Mar 28, 2009 3:51 am

It was considered a brilliant discovery that Grant's army was able to live off the land during the Vicksburg campaign. Union doctrine was to have river or rail supply lines for all major operations.

If the South used scorched earth tactics the Union would lose a few options, but basically persist with it's same strategy.

dduff442
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Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:18 pm

Historically, the Confederate approach to the war was similar to the Japanese approach to WW II: seize your objectives and fight until the enemy gives up. In each case this was a hope and not a strategy. It offered no route to victory that could be secured directly. It's not that it couldn't have worked -- it's that it was dependent on factors outside the control of the Confederacy or Japan, and therefore left those two countries fortunes to fate.

To stand a chance of victory, the Confederacy needed to deal a crushing blow to the Union armies as quickly as possible. Fighting on home soil offered the following advantages:

1) Battle in accordance with military logic as opposed to political logic.

All battles would have been fought at moments of the southern generals' choosing. Battle in defense of geographical objectives of the Union's choosing would have been avoided.

2) Intelligence and Recconaissance

Population loyalty is an important factor in any campaign. At the pace of pre-mechanized warfare, news always travelled faster than any army. Confederate forces would have had preferential access to this information.

Also, many campaign areas were very poorly mapped at the time. You cannot plan an army's movements using a 1:500,000 scale map. Confederate forces would have greater familiarity with the terrain. A flexible military strategy would have granted them maximum opportunity to exploit this advantage.

3) Morale

Confederate troops would have been styled as freedom fighters, Union troops as conquerors. This would have affected morale on both sides to the advantage of the Confederacy in each case.

4) Concentration

Napoleon remarked that he who seeks to be strong everywhere is strong nowhere. The South might have employed only screening forces in subsidiary theatres with the limited objective of slowing the rate of Union advance in order to concentrate all possible forces at the point of main effort. This is probably the most important of the points cited.

5) Force

The Union force would have been whittled down as it advanced by the need to garrison the countryside and secure supply lines. Simultaneously, the Union armies would have been under immense political and popular pressure to continue the advance and put an end to the seemingly one-sided civil disturbance in the shortest possible time.


Given the disparity of forces, the Confederacy could only afford to give battle once every possible advantage had been secured. I don't think the advantages outlined above were ones it could afford to spurn.

Quite possibly this approach might have resulted in defeat in under a year -- you might as well lose in one year as in four in any case.

What it would have achieved without question is to create the best possible circumstances where an annihilating victory might be won, the kind of victory the South simply had to win if it was to win the war.

Mangudai wrote:It was considered a brilliant discovery that Grant's army was able to live off the land during the Vicksburg campaign. Union doctrine was to have river or rail supply lines for all major operations.

If the South used scorched earth tactics the Union would lose a few options, but basically persist with it's same strategy.


Grant sent eight steamers laden with Food and Forage past the Confederate guns to the landing site, so he was not without supply. Also, the confederate lines were extremely tenuous everywhere except Vicksburg itself. Even in the unlikely event of a decisive defeat, the worst that would have happened would have been that his army would have had to abandon its cannon in retreating to Federal lines.

Also, Grant authorised his forces to forage without restriction. This would not have happened in 1861.

Don't forget that this was after two years of hard campaigning and that the Union had grown in experience and confidence, had accepted that the fight was going to be long and hard, and had developed overwhelming force.

77NY wrote:From Krakow, Poland to Moscow: 835 miles/1300 km
From Krakow, Poland to Stalingrad(Volgograd): 1100 miles/1780 km
From there only another 3800 miles to Vladivostok. ;)

Population of USSR in 1940: ~200 million
Population of Nazi Germany in 1940: ~70 million

Population of CSA in 1861: ~ 9 million
Population of Union in 1861: ~ 22 million

Those numbers just don't support the CSA adopting the overall strategy of the USSR in WWII. While Soviet armored strategy was brilliant in some ways, Soviet infantry tactics were not as sophisticated and often involved human wave attacks.


Time and space are factors dependent as much on technology, terrain and communications as on distance.

The USSR is only an example. I could as easily have cited the Teutoborg forest, the first Afghan war or any number of other cases.

Regards,
dduff

dragoon47
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:22 am

I like some of the points being raised here, particularly the ones about the Emancipation Proclaimation and the US election in 1864. I think if the South had been able to prevent either of those, they would have unfortunately won the war. I say unfortunately because of the causes and other things I've been reading about in "Mathew Brady's Illustrated History of The Civil War." Seems like the entire South was pretty much shoved into the mess.

Can anyone tell me if this book is a reliable source? The pictures are both amazing and grotesque in my opinion.

With two victories in Northern controlled territory Lincoln probably couldn't deliver the proclaimation before 1863 without looking too desperate for help ("Golden Book of The Civil War" or "[The] American Heritage"), and he couldn't do it as it was before the two invasions either so it could have scrapped the proclaimation until a much later time and sped up foreign intervention. The British press released some ugly things too during the war.

Brochgale
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Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:22 pm

dragoon47 wrote:I like some of the points being raised here, particularly the ones about the Emancipation Proclaimation and the US election in 1864. I think if the South had been able to prevent either of those, they would have unfortunately won the war. I say unfortunately because of the causes and other things I've been reading about in "Mathew Brady's Illustrated History of The Civil War." Seems like the entire South was pretty much shoved into the mess.

Can anyone tell me if this book is a reliable source? The pictures are both amazing and grotesque in my opinion.

With two victories in Northern controlled territory Lincoln probably couldn't deliver the proclaimation before 1863 without looking too desperate for help ("Golden Book of The Civil War" or "[The] American Heritage"), and he couldn't do it as it was before the two invasions either so it could have scrapped the proclaimation until a much later time and sped up foreign intervention. The British press released some ugly things too during the war.


Lees mistake - Gettysburg. When would Lincoln have made the equivalent address if Lee had opted to relieve Vicksburg?

Oh you can always rely on the Brit press to be ugly/poisonous. No matter who owns it!?

I actually think that foreign and especially Brit intervention in War might actually have enraged the Federal States so much that it would have focused the Federals in a way that the Japanese bombing of Peral Harbour galvanised the Americans in 1941.

As a student of economic history as well as military history I have doubts about the long term viability of the CSA. Or at least a CSA dependent on the institution of slavery.
"How noble is one, to love his country:how sad the fate to mingle with those you hate"
W.A.Fletcher "Memoirs Of A Confederate Soldier"

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