Fastsnake
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Japanese grand Streategy games

Sun May 09, 2010 3:46 pm

So, what do you think about them?

Actually I've never played none of them, but I think about it since a while. I wished to afford me Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI (the latest), but I've discovered Takeda 3 as well as Sango 2, from Magitech, a chinese (japanese? His CEO is chinese at least, seeing his name) little firm that tries to find its way out in the tough world of historical strategic wargames.
But here is not the point actually! As I said previously, I'm eager to get a grand straegy wargame, made by Asians (not that I have something to care about who made my game as long as it is fairly good, but I'm sure they'll be definitely different, as occidental and japanese RPG are) and also taking place in Asia (or not, after all).

Are there other of them which I've never heard about? Did you already play these games? What do you think about them? Is it worthwhile buying them?

Thank you for your answers and your acknowledge.
*respectfully bend over*

tagwyn
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Japenese Games?

Sun May 09, 2010 6:42 pm

Do they include tactics on how to launch sneak attacks!! :confused:

Fastsnake
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Sun May 09, 2010 7:39 pm

Errr... Are you sure you haven't mistaken yourself? :confused:
If not, I don't know because I just told I haven't played yet to these games. I am waiting for good advices from you folks.

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Gray_Lensman
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Sun May 09, 2010 9:20 pm

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Fastsnake
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Sun May 09, 2010 11:00 pm

Hee-hee!

... Was it Tagwyn or I just didn't get what he was talking about? :w00t:

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Sun May 09, 2010 11:12 pm

Fastsnake wrote:Hee-hee!

... Was it Tagwyn or I just didn't get what he was talking about? :w00t:


Japanese - sneak attack - ww2 - still don't get the reference??

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Gray_Lensman
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Sun May 09, 2010 11:24 pm

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Franciscus
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Mon May 10, 2010 12:10 am

Hello, Fastsnake

I own Takeda 3 and Sango 2, as well as S&H 2. They are great games, mixing grand strategy, including some diplomacy, and tactical battles (a la Shogun TW). Sango has some "fantasy" elements thrown in, which may or not be to your liking. I think that you should start with Takeda, it gives, IMHO, a good feeling of Japanese middle ages warfare. The area where these games lack a bit is in graphic polish, but the AI is pretty good, IMHO

Regards

tagwyn
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Mon May 10, 2010 6:31 pm

You guys deliberatly refusing to remember Pearl Harbor? Negotiators in DC delivering Japenese memoranda while knowing full well it all a waste of time. Educational standards are really suffering. t

Fastsnake
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Mon May 10, 2010 11:13 pm

I thought about this, but then I reject this idea, because I don't see what the hell it has to do with the subject, except the fact that I'm talking about japanese (which is not enough in my opinion, as I don't necessarly talk about lynching when I speak about the United States).

And thanks for the answer Franciscus, I think I'll buy it just right after the exams. :thumbsup:

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Pocus
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Tue May 11, 2010 8:21 am

Anguille should really answer this thread I believe ;)
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Gray_Lensman
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Tue May 11, 2010 1:01 pm

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tagwyn
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Pear Harbor!!

Tue May 11, 2010 5:04 pm

Thank you Grey!! Exactly correct. t :mdr:

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dooya
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Tue May 11, 2010 7:08 pm

Gray_Lensman wrote:Well, let's see... Given the Japanese penchant for starting wars with pre-emptive (sneak) attacks...

1.) Port Arthur against the Russian Pacific fleet and
2.) Pearl Harbor against the USA Pacific fleet.

and YOU opened the thread with the title "Japanese grand strategy games"...

I think the post by Tagwyn (though possibly inadvertently humorous in effect) was still within the subject itself even if it wasn't directly about any specific game. Japanese Grand Strategy implies games designed around their strategy which includes pre-emptive (sneak attack) strikes.
How many wars started by one party officially declaring: "Dear perfidious enemy, next week we will crush your forces at Port X and start a nasty attack at City Y. Please bring your own weapons and act as if you were surprised."?

Without joking: I might be wrong, but isn't it a rather common principle to start attacks out of the sudden?
No quote - No bullshit!

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Gray_Lensman
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Tue May 11, 2010 9:41 pm

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Franciscus
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Tue May 11, 2010 11:20 pm

Quote:

" Ageod Forum Rules
(...)

8. You will only post messages that are within the particular forum’s scope or topic.
(...)
10. You will not hijack threads for your own purpose but, rather, will begin a new thread with the new subject.
(...)"

:siffle:

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Jarkko
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Wed May 12, 2010 6:56 am

Gray_Lensman wrote:Your example above is an exaggeration (sp?). Even today, there is usually a diplomatic break prior to initiating hostilities.

The only difference of Pearl Harbor and the other "non-DoW" attacks of WW2 is that the others were not targeted at USA.
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Carnium
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Wed May 12, 2010 7:36 am

I have a strange feeling that this thread will NOT go in the right direction ;)

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Wed May 12, 2010 9:50 am

Fastsnake wrote:Are there other of them which I've never heard about? Did you already play these games? What do you think about them? Is it worthwhile buying them?


Koei - the guys behind Rise of the Three Kingdoms - is Asia's most profilic strategy game developer (perhaps in the world - can't think of any competition that has released as many games as they have). Most of their recent titles are console-only, though, and the english-speaking market is sadly undersupported with titles.

A partial list of their games can be found here.

I thought RTKXI was quite nice, but a bit too heavy on the micro-management - but that is the Koei style.

Nobunaga's Ambition was a classic strategy game back in it's day. I don't know how the new remakes of those games are, though (note also some RPG spin-offs).

Edit:
I see that the versions released on the Wii and DS seem to be actually virtual console ports of the old games. The old games were quite fun in their day, but don't know how they'd stack up to being played on a console today.

Square (the guys behind Final Fantasy) also have a couple of console-only strategy/tactical games.
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Gray_Lensman
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hgilmer
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Wed May 19, 2010 12:26 am

I played Koei's Nobunaga's Ambition over and over for years.

Fastsnake
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Wed May 19, 2010 12:20 pm

Yeah, it's a legend, but too old now. Not that I just swear by modernity and despise whatever was released more than two years ago, but - especially concerning PC games - a really old is a hell of a pain to play, all the more as your operating system is Vista or XP :bonk:

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Wed May 19, 2010 4:51 pm

I am a great fan of the old Koei classics like Nobunaga's Ambition 2 or New Horizon or Emperor or Genghis Chan or Romance of the three Kingdoms(I bought the latest PC version RTK XI last week). These games have a good and simple interface and most of them are still playable.
I now own the game "Takeda 3" and I am very disappointed about the bad interface which makes it difficult to understand and play the game.
I like the better Koei games like RTK XI which have elements of RPG,strategy and offers some action and demands some tactics.
I am still in hope for a PC version of the latest version of Nobunaga's Ambition in English, because there are only Chinese and Japanese versions existing.
But in some terms these games are part of a niche market and therefore Koei would not get big sales like 20 years before because so many people like more or less only realtime strategy with short campaigns which someone can finish in about 30 hours. I remember the times in which I was playing more than 200 hours with certain strategy or rpg titles and was very satisfied with these games because most of them need not so many patches like the games today. Okay, most of the games nowadays are very complex equivalent to these old games.
Many companies today which develop games tended to publish their games too early in a hurry often enough in a certain final beta status like it happened with Empire Total War as SEGA seemed to push the release too much.
Therefore I like Companies as AGEOD and Matrix which tries to satisfy their customers with functioning games from start.

Sry for being a little bit offtopic sofar...

greetings

Hohenlohe
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tagwyn
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Wed May 19, 2010 6:51 pm

FS: What exams? Medical? t

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Thu May 20, 2010 7:00 am

Very new to this thing, still learning about this game. This is a great thing that my friend recommended to me, I never getting involved with it but soon will be Thanks! Smile.For cheapzhu zhu pets** please see the Zhu Zhu pets hamsters site where you can buy Zhu Zhu hamsters at low prices.

Fastsnake
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Fri May 21, 2010 5:47 pm

Errr... Sorry for the off-topic things, but I'm studying law currently.

And thank you for the different answers, I think I'll get Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI and maybe Takeda 3, but your critics were not so good.

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Drakken
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Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:44 pm

Having played both Nobunaga's Ambition 12 (Kakushin) and Nobunaga's Ambition 13 (Tendou) on my PC, with all the patches and PUKs available, I'd advise against it.

Yes, these were the Japanese version, I imported them and with a little tweaking to handle the Japanese characters, they are very playable. So, I am one of the very few. :cool:

While the games are gorgeous, the orchestrated music is extraordinary, and the features interesting and even innovative, there are gaping balance problems that ruin the whole show down the drain. Namely, the Takeda retainers are insanely overpowered. It swallows the competition every single time within 30 years because they have a strong starting base (4 castles in Kakushin), and a stack of unbelievably strong leaders compared to those who should be holding them back, the Uesugi and the Hojo. So as soon as they grow, they are a unstoppable steamroller.

Just to tell you, 99% of the time I've seen the Hojô clan annihilated by the Takeda without the Uesugi lifting a finger. In itself, this is so, so wrong, as these three had an "understanding", a chivalrous triangular policy of balance of power between these three to stop the others from expanding.

That would be fine if there was some limiting factor to the number of troops one could hold, pay, and feed, like in past iterations. However, there are nothing of such. Rice is only used when troops leave the castle. When in castle, you can just hoard troops and rice without the latter limit the former.

So the Takeda, with tons of troops and unspeakably inhumanly strong leaders, squash the competition every time, even the Uesugi which, even with a strong leader like Uesugi Kenshin, cannot follow suit against the Takeda.

As for diplomacy, it is theorically possible to create a coalition against such a power, but against the Takeda this coalition just isn't strong enough and they end up swallowed into the Takeda domain.

Nobunaga's Ambition 11 (Tenka Sousei), however, is another matter. This is easily one of the best balanced NA game since Lord of Darkness, and it is slightly more politlcal. Diplomacy is spot on, with power blocks allying and plotting against each other. The AI's expansion is reasonable, and more importantly there is only so much troops you can hire, which forces you to seek alliances and improve your leaders through training or items to compensate for a limited host of soldiers.

In Tenka Sousei, I've seen Takeda Shingen die around its estimated death year with a domain more or less the same size as in real life, and then quickly crumble in succession wars, which was satisfying in itself compared to the Kakushin steamroller.

However, I agree battles can be a bit underwhelming compared to Kakushin/Tendou, or even Takeda 3. It is the last NA game with a two-step out-of-map battle system, with units in which 1 tiny soldier represents 20 soldiers. Allies included, the two sides can only field a max of 8 commanders + 4 allies commanders each, which may seem tiny. However, it precludes any steamroller advantage from occuring (unless attritional) because there are so much soldiers you can use in a single battle.

If I had to tell you which Nobunaga's Ambition you should play, it would be Lord of Darkness on the SNES or Tenka Sousei on the PC (with the PUK). Sadly, I know of no Japanese/English patch, so I use my knowledge of the PS2 game and my kanji dictionary to translate it for myself.

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Chris Stavros
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Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:09 pm

I have Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI for PC.

Its a great game, very well done, but like many KOEI titles you have to spend hours building up your forces and power base, and then the second half of your playing time is almost constant combat.

The use of fire in combat is lots of fun and worth buying teh game just to do it, igniting a huge fireball that wrecks havoc on 6 or more enemy warlords is great sport.

Ardie
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Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:00 am

I've played Genghis Khan I with Amiga and GK II, L' Empereur (Napoleonic), Romance of the Three Kingdoms III with PC.

These games have a similar interface and if you've played one you can easily learn another.

About the sneak attack -topic: Soviet Union started the Winter War without "dowing" Finland. The troops just crossed the border on several points.

Unfortunately for the Soviets...The Finns were already waiting for them. :)

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Anguille
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Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:54 am

Just seen this thread...

I also have Takeda 3, Sango 2 and S&H2 by Magitech.

I really recommend Takeda 3...great game with a challenging AI (both on the strategy map and in the battles). There's an easy ingame help to understand every Screen and find it hard to understand how any wargamer can find it difficult to understand...1 hour is more than enough to understand how the game works imho. Could the interface be better? probably but i don't have any problems with it.

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