Are you directly related to people that took part in the conflicts of AGEOD titles?

[ERISS]

how ignorant and insulting that last part sounds. Sorry about that, guys.

What do you mean? About small european areas??? Don't sorry. I didn't feel insults for you were not in bad intent nor an idiot.
Don't have to need diplomatic stences in future. You're not in Bush government, so you can talk about "Old Europe" here lol.
However thank for your kindness.

[Die Zieten]

I re-read that post and realized how ignorant and insulting that last part sounds. Sorry about that, guys.

I wasnt insulted either.

Its true, last summer i drove by car from Netherlands to Finland and the whole way i could remember locations of major battles fought trough centuries in that route..

And the countries in the Americas are just cousins to Europe, same cultural family.

Events that impacted the Western nations in modern times most are the French and American revolutions.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Haha, no I wasn't talking about Europe being small but I was referring to Europe hosting so many conflicts. I don't want anyone to misinterpret it to say that Europeans are a barbaric group. I think all groups of people are equally bloodthirsty

But in all fairness I think the many bloody wars in Europe are due more to the modernity of their weapons compared to my Aztec ancestors, I mean look at modern Mexico now that they have European weapons. Though in my Western Hemisphere centered mind I would like to think that the air is clearer on this side of the Atlantic Ha ha.

Thanks for understanding though, guys. I try to be cautious on these threads because I don't know about the differences (if any) between European and American mindset.

[Boomer]

I don't think any one group of people have a monopoly on war and bloodshed. Every group, civilized and otherwise have been pretty good at killing at one point or another.

"The most persistent sound which reverberates through man's history is the beating of war drums."
- Arthur Koestler

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Well said my friend.

[Die Zieten]

I don't think any one group of people have a monopoly on war and bloodshed. Every group, civilized and otherwise have been pretty good at killing at one point or another.

"The most persistent sound which reverberates through man's history is the beating of war drums."
- Arthur Koestler

True but the European situation with competing tribes and nations in a small geographical area developed weapons and tactics that would be even more lethal when taken against natives around the world.

The competition for the limited land and resources was the reason Europeans took to the seas.

The Turks cut the trade routes to Asia and that was the start of exploration, money talks.

But im not one of those that feels some white mans guilt, other ethnic groups would have done the same if things would have been other way.

Europe was close to being overrun by Mongols, Turks and Arabs at times and it wasnt pretty.

One thing in Europe is sure, if there is an outside threat or one nation tries to take hegemony over others in Europe the rest will ally against it.

[Boomer]

White/European guilt is certainly something that has been heaved upon western civilization... as a way to more properly 'civilize' those whose ancestors brought about civilization to Europe and the Americas. Fitting reward, eh? Ironically enough, it's a tactic being used by the very warmongers who seek to eliminate their own closest competition by way of conditioning. See, it's always 'those people over the hill' that are the bad ones, the blacks, the reds, the whites, etc etc. Sure, we all have differences, but when we finger point, not only are we acting out the hypocrite, we're also just a few small steps away from pointing with something other than fingers. It's uncomfortably easy for us humans to accuse other groups of vile acts while we bash their brains in with rifle butts.

[Taillebois]

Ivo de Taillebois apparently went over with William the Conqueror and proceeded to chop off as many Anglo Saxon heads as he could. Taillebois meaning wood chopper ? (French help please?) He was more a chopper of heads than woods. He nicked a fair bit of land in Cumbria too.

My surname Tallboys is derived from this, I'm told, but who knows.

[Die Zieten]

Ivo de Taillebois apparently went over with William the Conqueror and proceeded to chop off as many Anglo Saxon heads as he could. Taillebois meaning wood chopper ? (French help please?) He was more a chopper of heads than woods. He nicked a fair bit of land in Cumbria too.

My surname Tallboys is derived from this, I'm told, but who knows.

Have you considered doing a DNA test for the haplogroup? They are trying to find out the Norman ancestry location in Scandinavia, some must have the paternal line preserved.

Im personally interested in Normans as Rollo has so peculiar history linked to Finland and there is something very strange in the Finnish DNA results gathered this far.
I read they are going to test Rollo also but not sure if they can get a sample from the body.

Claimed Yngling lineage leading to Rollo
The Yngling "Fairhair dynasty" lineage introduced in Hversu Noregr byggðist ("How Norway was settled") and the Orkneyinga and Heimskringla sagas suggests a line of Rollo going back to Fornjót, the primeval "king" who "reigned over" Finland and Kvenland. The claimed line leading to Rollo includes Rognvald Eysteinsson, the founder of the Earldom of Orkney

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollo

[Baris]

True but the European situation with competing tribes and nations in a small geographical area developed weapons and tactics that would be even more lethal when taken against natives around the world.

The competition for the limited land and resources was the reason Europeans took to the seas.

The Turks cut the trade routes to Asia and that was the start of exploration, money talks.

But im not one of those that feels some white mans guilt, other ethnic groups would have done the same if things would have been other way.

Europe was close to being overrun by Mongols, Turks and Arabs at times and it wasnt pretty.

One thing in Europe is sure, if there is an outside threat or one nation tries to take hegemony over others in Europe the rest will ally against it.

For one thing Turks , Mongols were also brutal to each other that I think that kind of eastern, western concept was not available at that time. More likely name derived from Eastern Roman empire. Later Europeans accept them as cultural heritage.

I also think competing tribes,fragmented feudalism and separate church state in Europe should bring more quarrel. Where as wars were mostly finished after Mongols finished their conquest and get away from Anatolia. For Ottomans, ruler were also religious leader with mighty power that can "convince" any religious authority that might pop up. I think this kind of strong centralization and lack of opposition somehow limited any progress or ideas. But It is interesting to read the same theory that richess of the east prevented new world colonization where as Hayreddin Barbarossa were commanding one of the strongest fleet decide to stay in mediterranean. I wonder if it is only related to that.

[Die Zieten]

For one thing Turks , Mongols were also brutal to each other that I think that kind of eastern, western concept was not available at that time. More likely name derived from Eastern Roman empire. Later Europeans accept them as cultural heritage.

I also think competing tribes,fragmented feudalism and separate church state in Europe should bring more quarrel. Where as wars were mostly finished after Mongols finished their conquest and get away from Anatolia. For Ottomans, ruler were also religious leader with mighty power that can "convince" any religious authority that might pop up. I think this kind of strong centralization and lack of opposition somehow limited any progress or ideas. But It is interesting to read the same theory that richess of the east prevented new world colonization where as Hayreddin Barbarossa were commanding one of the strongest fleet decide to stay in mediterranean. I wonder if it is only related to that.

I wasnt denying that Europeans havent been brutal, im personally related to the last pagan barbarians in Europe.

I was just saying that putting guilt on Europeans for wars, conquest and slaves is a big hypocrisy.

Accepted who? The Turks? I dont think in general Europeans think Turks as European, that in my honest opinion and not ment to offend anyone.

After the fall of Constantinople and end of Mongol protection in the silk route Europeans started to find other trade routes to Asia, more safe and no hands between.

I dont think Ottomans had the same incentive, they sat on top of the existing trade routes from Anatolia to the Red Sea, their interest was to defend what they took.

[Baris]

I'm quite lost what you are implying here? I think we don't have any disagreement about most points. But my only disagreement is maybe modern European education and politically European Union come up by the idea of United Europe. Is it artificial? time will tell. But historically before that Eastern Roman Empire and especially Constantinople were not protected at all from Ottoman attacks . In fact some historians tell that it was chance to get rid of Orthodox church. But later that become one of the heritage. No pain but much gain.

Because of the immigration from central asia there are still Shamanism traces in central anatolia today. But for other Turkic migration to eastern europa resulted in a different way. But I presume pagan religion,traditions were very common before in most part of the world that at least part of it integrated to modern religions in some way. In fact pagans are harmless and good people that they didn't gather million men for patriotic or religious wars.

Ottoman ruling class, military hierarchy and Jenisseries needs a book to be read. I can recommend some of them.
But basicly very cosmopolit.

[Die Zieten]

I'm quite lost what you are implying here? I think we don't have any disagreement about most points. But my only disagreement is maybe modern European education and politically European Union come up by the idea of United Europe. Is it artificial? time will tell. But historically before that Eastern Roman Empire and especially Constantinople were not protected at all from Ottoman attacks . In fact some historians tell that it was chance to get rid of Orthodox church. But later that become one of the heritage. No pain but much gain.

Because of the immigration from central asia there are still Shamanism traces in central anatolia today. But for other Turkic migration to eastern europa resulted in a different way. But I presume pagan religion,traditions were very common before in most part of the world that at least part of it integrated to modern religions in some way. In fact pagans are harmless and good people that they didn't gather million men for patriotic or religious wars.

Ottoman ruling class, military hierarchy and Jenisseries needs a book to be read. I can recommend some of them.
But basicly very cosmopolit.

I tought that you tought that i suggested that only Turks and Mongols had been brutal, i admitted that Europeans are good at being brutal.

European Union today is as artificial as it can be..

There is an European identity, but you cant force it from some central power, it will break Europe up.

I predict the Brits are first to leave the present EU and after them goes the Dutch and Scandinavians.

Christianity in Northern Europe has always been just something very loose in top of the pagan heritage, i would not call for exsample most Scandinavians and Baltics very religious people.

I also tought you you ment that Europeans accept Turks as a cultural heritage.


I think Turkey is an Eurasian country with dominant Asian culture, Russia is an Eurasian country with dominant European culture.

I dont loose sleep over the loss of Constantinople. That is for Greeks and they have bigger worries at this time.

[ERISS]

European Union today is as artificial as it can be..
There is an European identity, but you cant force it from some central power, it will break Europe up.
Christianity in Northern Europe has always been just something very loose in top of the pagan heritage, i would not call for exsample most Scandinavians and Baltics very religious people.

Europe is a christian idea. Christianity has become artificial since very long: when it's capital went Rome. We went used to old artificial. Europe identity is a south-european continent thing, Northern don't care about Rome...

We will be who did take part of conflict in future, and Ageod will make wargames with. Our children will continue this thread. Here is our future History:
http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/lastwar/paneuro.html

The attachment world.jpg is no longer available

[Die Zieten]

Europe is a christian idea. Christianity has become artificial since very long: when it's capital went Rome. We went used to old artificial. Europe identity is a south-european continent thing, Northern don't care about Rome...

We will be who did take part of conflict in future, and Ageod will make wargames with. Our children will continue this thread. Here is our future History:
http://www.sjgames.com/ogre/lastwar/paneuro.html
[ATTACH=CONFIG]22225[/ATTACH]

Well there are different cultural groups within Europe and the North/Protestant and South/Catholic is one of the oldest.

It is not true that European values or heritage of Rome doesnt interest in the North.

The North is just not going to pay for some corrupted new elite to collect taxes to spend it on circus maximus and orgys.

And if we are honest, the more South you go the more corruption you get, if this offends someone so be it, they study these things globally.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

And if we are honest, the more South you go the more corruption you get, if this offends someone so be it, they study these things globally.

But the reasons why this is true, at least globally, are a sensitive and painful topic I think we all disagree on. I can't say about Europe, but I have my own opinions for why the rest of the global south is like this . . .

ERISS, your map is wrong, Mexico can never unite with the United States! And Iran and Saudi Arabia, under one government!? That is impossible

The only reason we can discuss this is because these AGEOD forums are so diverse. I'm very glad for this, that way people like us all from different countries can come together and discuss this. I don't have much interaction with anyone outside of U.S. and Mexico so I'm really grateful we have this opportunity.

It is good to hear a European perspective on the European Union. I as a North American think it is a good idea of a united Europe, especially as a counterweight to the United States in case the U.S. government ever gets too insane (perhaps this is already true! ) But I don't live in Europe, so this is easy for me to say. I rather want to hear what Europeans think.

Btw do you think we should start a new thread? I think we are stealing this one!

[Baris]

I as a North American think it is a good idea of a united Europe, especially as a counterweight

I doubt. North Atlantic Pact aka Nato mainly funded by US. Nato's political expansion through Eastern Europe,Ukraine made Russia very suspicious. And missile defence etc..
Me thinks counterweight is a bit Russia and maybe China in future. Oops a bit out of topic.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Yes, but I mean if they unite without U.S. interference. Nobody can be a counterweight to U.S. if the U.S. rules over them. My opinion of NATO is low, but I was referring to the idea of a united Europe, not necessarily the European Union in its current form because it has flaws right now, to say the least.

And besides, I mean a friendly counterweight, someone who can act as a responsible conscience, and steer the U.S. government towards the right direction if it starts to do crazy things. Russia and China is not that, they are only friendly with the U.S. when they absolutely must be.

Regardless, we are small people speaking of big things. I think we totally distracted the thread

[Die Zieten]

Its my thread, but yes, maybe a new would be required for talking future of Europe.

Every one agrees that together we are stonger but total elimination of nation states and instituting a strong federal goverment will bring trouble.

I have tought about how the Swiss confederation model would work in European scale.

[Gen. Monkey-Bear]

Ah, I forgot it was yours! but it would make a good new thread on politics. After all, was there ever a time in history when wargamers and history guys like us didn't sit around and talk of politics?

[Hilarion]

Only the American Revolution, as far as I know. However, I'm friends with the niece of the Russian emigres who hosted Denikin at their home for the final month of his life, which I think is pretty neat. :P

[H Gilmer3]

No idea!!! But, being of Polish, German, Irish, Swiss, Native American, and Texican descent, I'm sure someone at some point pulled a trigger, stabbed a spear, swung a sword and brained a few people. And then went on to father my ancestors so I could exist.

[Die Zieten]

No idea!!! But, being of Polish, German, Irish, Swiss, Native American, and Texican descent, I'm sure someone at some point pulled a trigger, stabbed a spear, swung a sword and brained a few people. And then went on to father my ancestors so I could exist.

You listed a bunch of known killers with a reputation.